Conair Career Advice

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medi-whacked
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Re: Conair Career Advice

Post by medi-whacked »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:There is no schedulled time off during the operating season for CONAIR pilots. The only time off is CARS days (3 in 30) and a blue alert (1.1 hour call) with no call counts as a CARS free from duty day.
Have a friend that works for Conair. He was explaining the CARS day after what they call a blue alert.
He said that at the completion of a day of standing by, if you did not get called in to fly, the day could be considered a day off.
Does anyone have a CARS reference, that shows after being on call for the day and not working, that it can be considered a day off?
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Highflyinpilot
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Re: Conair Career Advice

Post by Highflyinpilot »

I havnt really read the whole thread only the first page or so, but If someone is contemplating taking a job that will take you away from home for some time and you are the family type of person like i am I would strongly suggest that you really and i mean REALLY think about what you want, I have been in this position , I have only one child and got a job that kept me away for some time, I thought it would be easy, let's just say i lasted 2 months and packed her in. It is the hardest thing ever to be away from your family for lenghty periods. It may work for some people and for others, well not so much.

I just couldnt miss hat much time out of my families life, So just make sure it is what you really really want.


And then if you are a bachlor bachlorette: Then there is not much to think about, pack your shit and go :)
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The Old Fogducker
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Re: Conair Career Advice

Post by The Old Fogducker »

This has the potential to become interesting.

The regulation is 700.19 (b) and the standard on how to comply with the reg is 720.19 ... both are copied & pasted below.

One of the Inspectors in the Winnipeg office explained it so I could clearly understand the concept .... on a really hot summer day, can you cut the grass & do yard work, get overheated, and crack a beer without getting fired if the phone rings?

If the answer is yes, you are free from duty and are on a day off. If no, you are on duty and it counts as such.

How you could be on a "retro-active day off" and be in compliance is a bit of a mystery to me. "Oh, remember last Tuesday & Wednesday when we didn't have any trips to fly but you came out and drank coffee for 2 hours, then went home and waited for the phone to ring? ....Those were your days off. Shopping to do? Doctor appointment? Kid in the hospital? Need an oil change? Like to know when you're off next so the in-laws can come visit? Too bad.

Then again, perhaps these operators with no scheduled time off "get away with it" because 702 operations were virtually never audited under the old FOIP and under the new way of Transport thinking, audits are no more. SMS will cure that problem in a hurry though.

First .... the Regulation .....

Requirements for Time Free from Duty

700.19 (1) Subject to subsection (2), an air operator shall provide each flight crew member with the following time free from duty:

(a) .....deleted ... not applicable.

(b) where the operation is conducted under Subpart 2 or 3 or is conducted using a helicopter, one period of at least 24 consecutive hours 13 times within each 90 consecutive days and 3 times within each 30 consecutive days; and

(c) where the flight crew member is a flight crew member on call, one period of at least 36 consecutive hours within each 7 consecutive days or one period of at least 3 consecutive calendar days within each 17 consecutive days.

(2) An air operator may provide a flight crew member with time free from duty other than as required by paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) if

(a) the time free from duty is authorized in the air operator certificate; and

(b) the air operator and the flight crew member comply with the Commercial Air Service Standards.

(3) An air operator shall notify a flight crew member on call of the commencement and duration of the flight crew member's time free from duty.


Now the Standard as to how the regulation is to be complied with ....


720.19 Requirements for Time Free from Duty

The standard for providing a number of rest periods other than as required by subsection 700.19(1) of the Canadian Aviation Regulations is:

(1) Where the flight is conducted under Subpart 2 or 3 of Part VII of the Canadian Aviation Regulations, or with a deHavilland DHC-6 aircraft not conducting a scheduled passenger service or with a helicopter not conducting a scheduled passenger service, or heli-logging, the 24 consecutive hours 3 times within each 30 consecutive days may be replaced by:
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(a) following at least 5 consecutive periods of 24 consecutive hours free from duty, a flight crew member may be assigned duty for up to 42 consecutive days; and
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(b) the flight crew member shall receive at least 5 consecutive periods of 24 consecutive hours free from duty following any assignment that exceeds 27 consecutive days.
(amended 1999/09/01; previous version)
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xsbank
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Re: Conair Career Advice

Post by xsbank »

The duty days are negotiable - one year when it was hot the company just got a letter from a TC guy saying they are exempt due to the conditions.
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medi-whacked
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Re: Conair Career Advice

Post by medi-whacked »

xsbank wrote:The duty days are negotiable - one year when it was hot the company just got a letter from a TC guy saying they are exempt due to the conditions.
What about the employees right to "time free from duty"

In my business, medevacs, I am sure my company would love to play the same game for duty days. The reason for time free from duty is fatigue related. I like to know that I have a day off scheduled, not be told that I just had a day off.

Since when does the CARS allow "a TC guy" to circumnavigate the CARS?

There is a thread on the main page about fatigue. I really can't see allowing folks to work longer and harder just because conditions warrant it. If anything, that is when they should get some rest.
I hope the medevac industry doesnt get wind of this exemption.
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LLBeen There
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Re: Conair Career Advice

Post by LLBeen There »

I wonder if there is a correlation with the lack of days off and the numerous accidents over the last few years. Can you imagine if the charter companies were able to tell you that after you were on call all day and didn’t fly, that it was a day off? Although it would help me stay within my beer budget if I never had actual days "off".
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Re: Conair Career Advice

Post by Conquest Driver »

(3) An air operator shall notify a flight crew member on call of the commencement and duration of the flight crew member's time free from duty.
The way I read this, "retroactive" days off are illegal. Some days I wish I were in TC enforcement.

One other thing. What's way worse than not getting days off is getting "days off" where you ride around with the tanker group but don't get to do any flying.

1 This application for judicial review involves the interpretation and application of the Canadian Aviation Regulations, SOR/196-433 ("CARS"), a regulation that at times makes the Income Tax Regulations, C.R.C., c. 945 appear to be elegant prose.
Federal Court of Canada CAT File Number O-2468-2 Justice Phelan
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onezerotenthousand
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Re: Conair Career Advice

Post by onezerotenthousand »

Well the big green comes at the end of the season when you are looking at unemployment and 6,7,8 months off. It's called the penalty box for those CARS days. When in the field we are there to work, and AB/BC& Yukon forestry make the alerts pretty conveinient to have half a life out there as flying by noon is early unless it busy but we like that even more. CARS days are good if you have a plan but the randomness of it all makes it more of an inconveince.
I didn't read the whole thread but thats my 2 cents, others might disagree, as greed is a funny thing. CARS 702 makes alot possible and so does TC with "special permission" on extentions and what not, its a bit of a grey area but its actually good that way in this niche market.
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bezerker
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Re: Conair Career Advice

Post by bezerker »

Medi-whacked and Fogducker, you guys are omitting "on reserve".

You can be on reserve for ever. No duty time, no required days off, 1.1 hour call out.

I wish all POI's believed that you were "on duty" if you weren't allowed to crack open a beer.
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The Old Fogducker
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Re: Conair Career Advice

Post by The Old Fogducker »

You're correct Berzerker, I did leave out the "On Reserve" job description, and it it sure makes for some really tough working conditions I'd think. I guess that could be a year-round pilot status and only be limited by flight time accumulators .... interesting.

Perhaps I was too narrowly focused as I never thought to apply "On Reserve" to 702 in addition to my 705 mindset.

To try and put a humorous spin on this, it appears ATAC was well represented at the Flight & Duty meetings. This seems like it might have been the result of intense lobbying by the Captains and Owners of slave ship companies.

I, and others can sure thank our lucky stars that we work on a published schedule and know our days off won't be screwed around with unless all hell breaks loose ... well, like it did in BC this year. The guys sure earned every penny of the paycheque this season and I'm sure there were a few mornings where they woke up in exactly the same position as they were when they fell asleep.

OFD
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Re: Conair Career Advice

Post by A Regulator »

Here is something that I made up one day in the office to try and sort out on reserve, on call, on standby as the definitions are all over the place and most of complaints is due to operators not using the same defininitions as the CARs.
"flight crew member on reserve" - means a flight crew member who has been designated by an air operator to be available to report for flight duty on notice of more than one hour;
"flight crew member on call" - means a flight crew member who has been designated by an air operator to be available to report for flight duty on notice of one hour or less;
"flight crew member on standby" - means a flight crew member who has been designated by an air operator or private operator to remain at a specified location in order to be available to report for flight duty on notice of one hour or less;
"crew member" - means a person assigned to duty in an aircraft during flight time;
"flight crew member" - means a crew member assigned to act as pilot or flight engineer of an aircraft during flight time;
"flight deck duty time" - means the period spent by a flight crew member at a flight crew member position in an aeroplane during flight time;
"flight duty time" - means the period that starts when a flight crew member reports for a flight, or reports as a flight crew member on standby, and finishes at "engines off" or "rotors stopped" at the end of the final flight, except in the case of a flight conducted under Subpart 4 or 5 of Part VII, in which case the period finishes 15 minutes after "engines off" or "rotors stopped" at the end of the final flight, and includes the time required to complete any duties assigned by the air operator or private operator or delegated by the Minister prior to the reporting time and includes the time required to complete aircraft maintenance engineer duties prior to or following a flight;
"flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight;
700.21 (1) An air operator shall provide flight crew members on reserve, within each 24-hour period, with a rest period that meets the requirements of the Commercial Air Service Standards.
1
720.21 Flight Crew Members on Reserve
The standards for compliance with this section are:
(1) An air operator shall provide each flight crew member with an opportunity to obtain at least 8 consecutive hours sleep in any 24 consecutive hours while on reserve by one of the following methods:
(a) the air operator shall provide the flight crew member with 24 hours notice of the time of commencement and duration of the rest period. The designated rest period cannot shift more than 3 hours earlier or later than the preceding rest period, nor more than a total of 8 hours in any 7 consecutive days;
(b) the flight crew member shall be given a minimum of 10 hours notice of the assignment and shall not be assigned any duty for these 10 hours; or
(c) the air operator shall not assign the flight crew member to flight duty time and shall not interrupt the flight crew member's rest period between 22:00 and 06:00 local time.
(2) Where an air operator is unable to provide a flight crew member with a rest period required by subsection (1) and the flight crew member is notified to report for flight duty or the reporting time occurs between 22:00 and 06:00 local time:
(a) the maximum flight duty time shall be 10 consecutive hours; and
(b) the subsequent minimum rest period shall be increased by at least one-half the length of the preceding flight duty time.
700.15 Flight Time Limitations
700.15 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no air operator shall assign a flight crew member for flight time, and no flight crew member shall accept such an assignment, if the flight crew member's total flight time in all flights conducted by the flight crew member will, as a result, exceed
(a) 1,200 hours in any 365 consecutive days;
(b) 300 hours in any 90 consecutive days;
(c) 120 hours in any 30 consecutive days or, in the case of a flight crew member on call, 100 hours in any 30 consecutive days;
(d) where the flight is conducted under Subpart 4 or 5 using an aircraft other than a helicopter, 40 hours in any 7 consecutive days;
(e) where the flight is conducted under Subpart 2 or 3, or is conducted using a helicopter, 60 hours in any 7 consecutive days; or
(f) where the flight crew member conducts single-pilot IFR flights, 8 hours in any 24 consecutive hours.
2
3
700.19 Requirements for Time Free from Duty
700.19 (1) Subject to subsection (2), an air operator shall provide each flight crew member with the following time free from duty:
(a) where the operation is conducted under Subpart 4 or 5 using an aircraft other than a helicopter, one period of at least 36 consecutive hours within each 7 consecutive days or one period of at least 3 consecutive calendar days within each 17 consecutive days;
(b) where the operation is conducted under Subpart 2 or 3 or is conducted using a helicopter, one period of at least 24 consecutive hours 13 times within each 90 consecutive days and 3 times within each 30 consecutive days; and
(c) where the flight crew member is a flight crew member on call, one period of at least 36 consecutive hours within each 7 consecutive days or one period of at least 3 consecutive calendar days within each 17 consecutive days.
(2) An air operator may provide a flight crew member with time free from duty other than as required by paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) if
(a) the time free from duty is authorized in the air operator certificate; and
(b) the air operator and the flight crew member comply with the Commercial Air Service Standards.
(3) An air operator shall notify a flight crew member on call of the commencement and duration of the flight crew member's time free from duty.
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bezerker
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Re: Conair Career Advice

Post by bezerker »

That is good info as people forget to look in the interpretation sections at the beginning of each section of the CARs.

My opinions of those rules:

The rules for being on standby- they are great, you are on duty and there are lots of limitations for operators (both in the CARs and in the CLC) so, you won't be overly fatigued (max 14 hour duty day and you can't really take off after 12 or so hours, plus 48 hr work week until overtime pay), and you get to have a life.

The rules for being on reserve- they are great, flexible for the operator but still provide proper rest periods for aircrew.

The fatal flaw? Why in God's name would an operator use either of those when they can just put crews "on call"? Not on duty so no pay needed (according to CLC), no time limits (maybe 3 off in 17 if operator doesn't count non-flying days that were "on call" as days off), crew is available 24/7, and you still get the aircraft airborne in under an hour.

If you have a union, you can get reserve (does anyone else in the country use reserve besides Conair?). And if you have a Medevac contract that requires you to be airborne within 30 minutes from the call, you will get standby. For the rest of us non-scheduled jackasses?....we will be "on call". On paper, legal to be awake for well over 24 hrs, have 8.5 hours off, and be awake for another 14, for ever.

Le's see how this would work with criminal type laws: If you kill someone with a gun, you get jail time, kill someone with an edged weapon, jail time, but if you kill someone with a blunt weapon, it is ok. I wonder what weapon the majority of murderers would use.

So in my opinion, whether you know about them or not, those rules are pretty much crap. I hope the proposed amendments to the CLC will include the time free from all duty proposal (I think it was 8 or 10 hours free from all duty every 24 hours).

End of rant. Sorry to hijack a Conair thread.
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Re: Conair Career Advice

Post by Rebel_Pilot »

Just stumbled accross this thread. i'm wondering if she got the job in the end? im a new pilot and really liked the idea of working for conair. but now after reading this... doesn't seem like the best idea if i wan't to maintain a happy relationship with my partner. Best season of the year, and i wouldnt see her for bugger all of it.
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Dhc6to8
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Re: Conair Career Advice

Post by Dhc6to8 »

Conair has a lot of great people working there, and Matt Bradley is a good CEO. They give you a week off on a regular schedule. Due to the nature of the work, things can change and an open mindset is needed. Go for it and try it - just be open and honest with the company when they hire you and ask a lot of questions before you sign on! Nobody wants somebody who wastes their time.
Cheers
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Re: Conair Career Advice

Post by champcamp »

Dhc6to8 wrote: Mon Jun 09, 2025 2:38 am Conair has a lot of great people working there, and Matt Bradley is a good CEO. They give you a week off on a regular schedule. Due to the nature of the work, things can change and an open mindset is needed. Go for it and try it - just be open and honest with the company when they hire you and ask a lot of questions before you sign on! Nobody wants somebody who wastes their time.
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Do you have any info on the maintenance side of things? Working for the provincial side of airtanker ops got me kinda hooked, and I’d like to go there once I finish school.
Cheers!
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Re: Conair Career Advice

Post by bigredone »

If you have been exposed to a Provincially owned fleet and maintenance, you can bin the idea of similarities post haste! Not unlike any other government operated entity versus their privately owned counterparts it is a waste of time trying to figure out how they are the same and assume that everything is wildly different, which it is. Best bet is to upsticks and visit a base or the head-shed in 'Butsford and see what's what. They are immensely proud of the product and are gracious in showing it off.
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