Petition for "College of Professional Pilots"?

iflyforpie · Post by **iflyforpie** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:26 am

It would have to be federally regulated. Otherwise what's to prevent pilots from bypassing it in order to low-ball themselves to get ahead (trust me, it will happen).

It sounds to me like some powerful, organized lobbying is in order. But with organizations like ATAC already working for the employers, I don't see how a disorganized, transient group of low-time, low pay pilots are going to convince the government to bless a College of Professional Pilots.

I am all for it though! Here's hoping.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:38 am

Here is what we have with 206.......

I have also been a pilot for a long time. And over this time have realized that pilots ARE the most whiny-ist people out there.

Here is what he / she really is.

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loopy · Post by **loopy** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:43 am

The thing is, it wont just be the low time transient guys. This is going to work on behalf of all professional pilots in Canada, but it will work best with those of experience in different sectors of the industry stepping up. That is what would also make us a more powerfull lobby group.

Northern Skies · Post by **Northern Skies** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:54 am

One avenue of approach to help such a transition would be to lobby insurance companies in support of a college of professional pilots. Insurance providers could require that operators employ pilots who are members of the association, or alternatively offer incentives in premiums to the operation. This could apply to customers such as government agencies as well, similar to pilot minimums and contrail requirements. They will have an interest in this if it is pointed out to them, as a distinction between treating pilots as professionals in lieu of the "hired help" certainly and truthfully affects the overall culture of safety in an operation. I am personally witnessing this with my recent move to a company who (other than less pay) treats their pilots as skilled professionals. There is a huge difference.

This is an important stepping stone to accreditation, as the government won't look into it until there are many voices advocating it. Rome wasn't built in a day. Our professional association is in the best interests of more than just pilots.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:49 pm

Excellent comments Northern Skies, when and if you guys get this off the ground you " MUST " choose people who really do know the industry to represent you not just some smooth talking idiots.

dthorpe · Post by **dthorpe** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:25 pm

righthandman wrote:Yes I am all for it. I only wish that (for once) such a "movement" wouldn't run out of steam.

Then quit wasting time in front of your computer " BLOGGING BANTER " and get off your ass, roll up your sleeves and be part of the solution. If you don't ??? you'll only continue to be part of the problem. One of complacency defeat and laziness of sitting back and letting everyone else do all the work. What can I do you ask? Start a petittion of pilot namesand license numbers demanding change. Write your local MP demanding legislation which would LEGISLATE a Mandatory Pilots Associtaion to HELP TC regulate safety, SMS systems and force ALL Operators to properly price their product to include fair wages, working conditions and SMS factors in their operations. Spread the word to other pilots that it's not creative, or even cute, to accept a job flying a "HORNY" Piece of Iron for $1.95 a day and alll the agravation he can eat to get ahead at the expense of our passion and profession. PLEASE just do something to help the cause.......
Thank you

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:35 pm

petittion of pilot namesand license numbers demanding change. Write your local MP demanding legislation which would LEGISLATE a Mandatory Pilots Associtaion

That will never happen.

to HELP TC regulate safety,

You really think that TC really regulates now?

SMS systems and force ALL Operators to properly price their product to include fair wages, working conditions and SMS factors in their operations.

SMS systems are nothing more than paper work.

What you people need is leaders who understand reality, not day dreamers who embrace paper work and are blind to reality.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:57 pm

This is no longer just a fanciful dream. A College of Professional Pilots of Canada is in the making. It's going to be a long time before it's complete - years, certainly - but the wheels are in motion. You will be hearing more, publically, by year end, including a comprehensive website some already know about. They have appointed their executives and some regional directors. They have received approval from Industry Canada. They'll probably start by pulling in the members of existing unions and professional associations to get the numbers, and then move on to collect those who aren't already covered in some way.

Everyone started somewhere, and most remember ... Bless those who remember well enough to want to make it better for the future.

iflyforpie · Post by **iflyforpie** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:18 pm

The way to sell this is as a safety issue: for the pilots, the companies, and the general public.

First is pay. We present the risks associated with low pay for pilots (poor food, inadequate housing, lack of health benefits) and translate that to risks it brings to the general public (hungry, fatigued pilots operating aircraft). The solution is either to pay the pilots more, or to reduce the financial burden of the pilots with subsidized housing, health benefits, etc. The Association needs to set standards of pay or other compensation based on the cost of living in the area the pilot is working.

Second is working conditions. Long duty days, poor maintenance, lack of training, company pressures, and many other factors again translate to increased risk to the pilot, and through the pilot to the general public. Again, the Association needs to set standards that will increase safety and reduce risks based on each type of operation.

Third is enforcement. These lovely goals with daisies all around are all fine and dandy, but they are only good intentions unless there is a method of enforcement. This would be by an anonymous reporting system set up for Association pilots; an independent watchdog committee to monitor companies and who have permission to either investigate errant companies or to direct Enforcement to do so; legal protection for pilots who are threatened with legal action, job termination, etc for reporting unsafe practices; and the ability to blacklist companies who do not meet Association standards. Also, the ability to remove a pilot from membership that does not uphold the standards set by the Association.

I am thinking of this off the top of my head, and I have probably missed a ton of things and other factors or considerations. Although limiting pilot numbers might be another goal, I think they will be self-limiting once the standards are in place, and I am sure you will lose the support of the flight training industry if that is pushed too hard.

After we have identified the problems, risks, and solutions, we need to get a coherent (and well written) letter stating our intentions to send to The Honourable John Baird, Minister of Transport, to Transport Canada, to ATAC, to the insurance companies and underwriters, and to the general public via the media and public campaigns to generate awareness and eventually action. This letter needs to be signed by as many pilots as we can get.

Long before an Association can get any sort of power or influence; it will need a membership base (with the income from dues) and knowledgeable employees in place to continue lobbying, increasing membership, and raising awareness amongst, pilots, the general public, the government, and the media.

There are several AME Associations as well as CAMC for the maintenance side of things, but none of these organizations have any real power (though CAMC is gradually taking over some TC functions) and none have required membership amongst their constituents. Without Federal Regulations, a Pilot’s Association is doomed to have even less membership. $300 is a lot of money for something that might not even get off the ground.

dthorpe · Post by **dthorpe** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:47 pm

That's exactly what I anticipated out of you catdriver. It's always easier to sit back and admit defeat than get up and fight for change. You don't know me. You don't have a clue who I have contacted or what I have been doing to fight for the right for me and every other Pilot to be paid an honest wage for a career I love but I sure know what you've done......... SFA. And I can see we can count on more negative responses in future. Thanks for your help and encouragement.

teacher · Post by **teacher** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:51 pm

A quick search came up with this...........

http://collegeofpilots.com/

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:09 pm

Watch it come late (?) fall.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:23 pm

That's exactly what I anticipated out of you catdriver. It's always easier to sit back and admit defeat than get up and fight for change.

You obviously don't know me dthorpe and you obviously did not read what I said......go back and read it again and tell me what was so out of line with my comments.

You don't know me. You don't have a clue who I have contacted or what I have been doing to fight for the right for me and every other Pilot to be paid an honest wage for a career I love but I sure know what you've done......... SFA.

Likewise it is obvious you don;t know me or you would not have made such a statement because I have stood up for what is right in aviation for decades and won every one of my efforts to make things better.

And I can see we can count on more negative responses in future. Thanks for your help and encouragement.

What you took as negative was only my attempt to point out what is wrong with the industry.

Anyhow all the best in your endeavors as I am out of the industry and am quite content to leave the job of bringing about changes to those who earn their living in it.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:58 pm

Cat, I think dthorpe has the right ideas, and a great approach. SMS is here to stay ... and that could be a good thing IF things are well regulated/enforced. You and I agree that TC isn't effective as it stands, and we agree that the approach they are taking to SMS implementation is dangerous - right? A mandatory College of Pilots could do a lot to HELP TC regulate and enforce, as dthorpe has suggested.

Your comments did reflect a fatalism.

Cat Driver wrote:
petittion of pilot namesand license numbers demanding change. Write your local MP demanding legislation which would LEGISLATE a Mandatory Pilots Associtaion
That will never happen.

Why won't it ever happen? I'd be willing to get a petition started. Kirsten B. and I are already working on a different one that I know you'll appreciate. Shall I start a poll to see just how much support there would be for this?

I have talked with both my local MP and a Senator about a mandatory association - and with positive feedback. I'm not the only one, either ...

There are a lot of people who have put great thoughts down into this thread, and elsewhere, about how such an association could and should work. Everyone should be working together ...

Don't be defeatest! It's change we can believe in!!!

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:14 pm

Would you sign a petition for a legislated mandatory "College of Professional Pilots of Canada"?

This subject has come up on the board half a million times (ok, slight exaggeration!) over the years. Here is the link to the latest thread. viewtopic.php?f=54&t=56302. The thread also links back to a couple of other threads from late last year, holding still more great ideas, etc. People have tried in the past, and failed for - lack of initiative? Lack of involvement? Lack of interest? Intertia?

The time is ripe. Things are actually moving forward, people are starting to work together across the country.

I'll leave that thread as a discussion of exactly how it should work. I'd like to use this thread as a way of seeing how much interest there really is, and for discussion about petitioning.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:48 pm

widow, as you know I spent most of my career trying to better aviation and truly believe that I made some valuable contributions to the industry.

Lets start with 1974/5 when I was chief pilot for Air West Airlines and refused to accept TC's telling me they could not enforce the laws that I was supposed to ensure the company followed.

As far as I know I was the only chief pilot in Canada to take TCCA to Federal court for failure to back me up and enforce the law.

I won, they were forced to do their job and hopefully I saved lives.

As you know my last legal battle with them also was sucessful and once again it was TCCA who were found guilty of not abiding by the very same laws they are sworn to uphold.

Why won't it ever happen?

See...my comment is getting the result I wanted...it is getting everyone mad as hell so hopefully they will keep at it and succeed.

Don't be defeatest! It's change we can believe in!!!

I am far from a defeatist as you well know, what I want is for the industry to become what it should be and the only way that will happen is for the people who work in the industry to band together and make the changes, an association free of political interference is the only hope you have.

Remember those in power do not have the power to stop you from following the law.

So @#$! e'm if the industry does not want to change for the better shut the fucking industry down by refusing to work.

See I'm not a defeatist widow, I'm very positive and articulate.

snaproll20 · Post by **snaproll20** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:40 pm

I suppose it is inevitable for it to survive for a "College" of any profession to have rules, clout, muscle (call it what you will.)

That means discipline against members who do not comply, possible expelling them. It also has been suggested turning in to the authorities, or blacklisting companies that are (discerned as) not being safe/CARS non-compliant/bad bosses/ etc. etc. etc.

I suppose that means all the bad companies will wind up with the bad pilots.

You have to understand that Cat Driver is not being negative when he says there is a government department responsible for much of that. I forget their name because they got out of the business.

Human nature being what it is, I have to wonder just how a pilot complaint against a company is going to be validated before the boom is lowered by the College and they have to shut down because no pilot will fly for them. I guess that means a standing committee of judicious and experienced greybeards who will act, even though they may have no legal standing. Possibly they may be sued for slanderous allegations. Of course, a blacklisted pilot, rightfully or wrongfully, could also sue. There is no black and white here, is my point.

The College would become embroiled in bureaucracy and decisions which we all may wish would happen quickly will take months or years.

Please don't accuse me of being negative with these remarks, it's just that I have been looking at this idea for a little longer than most people. I do support any initiative to improve the lot of pilots. However, the principles and the enactment of them have to be pure, pure, pure.

Good luck with this.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:32 pm

However, the principles and the enactment of them have to be pure, pure, pure.

There is the key.

I am willing to accept the position of the person responsible for the ethical oversight of such an association. It will be very difficult for anyone to win a law suit against anything I would do as it will be within the law

I know of several other people who are retired or semi retired who can be trusted and they can not be intimidated because they have been there and know how the game is played.

Get your act together and start collecting dues from the industry.

I will help get it started.

My first target will be the chief pilots, if we get them onside they can be a very powerful group to force change.

Remember it takes money to do these things...lots of it.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:08 pm

I don't think anyone would disagree with the call for "pure, pure, pure".

And I would hope that any such mandatory "College" would be held publically accountable in a way which TC currently is not. I would hope the associated legislation would ensure this.

I don't know about the "College" blacklisting operators. That should be TC's job, shutting them down when they should be. But pilot's should be enabled to report safety violations and/or concerns to operators and TC without fear of repercussion, and guaranteed "closure" for those concerns. There are large scale representatives for almost all other areas of the industry.

jeta1 · Post by **jeta1** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:21 pm

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:49 pm

Face the sad truth, any hobo can become a pilot. Period.

True.

A proper association of pilots would work towards changing that problem.

By the way are you one of those hobos?

AuxBatOn · Post by **AuxBatOn** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:14 pm

I tought Seneca was a College of Professional Pilots

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:41 pm

jeta1, is it a waste of time because you believe it will never happen, or because you don't believe it should?

Maybe momentum is really all that's needed ...

AuxBat, Seneca is a College which offers a "Flight Program", resulting in a B of Applied Tech. The idea herein, is that of a "College", or professional association, for all working pilots.

AuxBatOn · Post by **AuxBatOn** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:49 pm

Widow wrote:jeta1, is it a waste of time because you believe it will never happen, or because you don't believe it should?

Maybe momentum is really all that's needed ...

AuxBat, Seneca is a College which offers a "Flight Program", resulting in a B of Applied Tech. The idea herein, is that of a "College", or professional association, for all working pilots.

Widow, I guess you didn't get my sarcasm

Sidebar · Post by **Sidebar** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:50 pm

jeta1 wrote:
Widow wrote:a legislated mandatory "College of Professional Pilots of Canada"?
I voted NO. because this is a waste of time.

I think there are already too many legislated and mandatory things that are either not enforced or not enforceable. Additionally, I'm already a legislated and mandatory member of a union that performs many of the functions proposed for a "College of Professional Pilots." I disagree with unnecessary duplication of effort, especially if it means more money out of my pocket.

Even so, I'm sitting on the fence and I voted "I need more info" because, while I'm not convinced this is a waste of time, I'm also not convinced it will ultimately be either feasible or beneficial.

Petition for "College of Professional Pilots"?

Would you sign a petition?

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Petition for "College of Professional Pilots"?

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