I'm Stuck

[JAHinYYC]

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[Randleman]

Bottom line is - Do you really want to work in this business? Most people who try to break in don't ever see a job... and are sent off to find a new career... If you want to do it you have to claw and fight and do whatever you can to keep moving ahead. Visit your possible prospects every week or two. Get noticed. Take any job and work your ass off and keep looking for something better, something that gets you ahead. If you're e-mailing resumes and waiting for an offer that meets all your expectations... well you'll probably be waiting... Dispatcher? take it. Ramp? take it. Any chance to move towards a flight line? take it... It may not be exactly where you want to be today but it's moving you that direction... you've got to grind it out right now if you want it.

Altiplano has given you the straight goods. I have been in commercial aviation for 22 yrs. I started as an instructor in 1987 and nothing has changed. There was always more low hour wannabe's than there are jobs. But all of my commercial training cohort, including me, that really, really wanted to make their living flying airplanes eventually made it (Jazz, Air Canada, Cathay, CL 215 , Challenger, CONAIR, TC). They sucked it up and took anything available and worked their asses off. The ones that didn't hustle, that were "too good" to take work that didn't meet their standards, that whined and complained...well I haven't seen any of them for 21 yrs. Aviation is a tough gig. Suck it up or get out, it will never change.

Agreed with your post, that's definitely my attitude considering I'm only 18, and I know that after fighting and clawing enough I will get in. It's the waiting that's killer.

Another thing that bugs me is "oh they don't pay us anything!" Well, how much money does a company really have to pay their pilots? They are losing money, and they don't make a whole lot, so you can bet they don't have endless cash to pay their pilots with. Those that do (Air Canada) do pay their pilots well. So stop complaining, you chose to get into the industry, suck it up for the first few years and take it...it's well worth the reward in the end.

[LegoMan]

The industry is tanked. There is no point trying. I've had to work 2 ground jobs and got laid off the second one because of down sizing. I've done very little flying in the last 3 years since i've gotten my license. I am not going to waste anymore time and money. I've returned to school for a very good career, a second career which is being paid for by the tax payers. The industry I am getting into is very lucrative and I will work in it for a couple years. If things should improve then I will buy a type rating and go overseas because I have no interest in flying for poverty wages in this country when I dont have to. My friends are making $40,000-$60,000 out of school. I've never flown with a turbine captain that even made that being in the industry 5 years.

People seem to think working for crappy wages is a way of paying dues, they need to give their heads a shake and stop being slaves. I am making more without an education as an intern while going to school than I would see in aviation for at least 7-10 years. If flying doesn't work out I will definitely be able to buy my own bird very soon.

In the meantime I am enjoying what I am doing, back to civilization with family and friends, and am going to Rochester next week to purchase a 2002 Porsche GT3. Something I definitely wouldn't be able to afford in aviation for a long long long time if ever.

Best of luck to everyone, I hope everyone finds work soon.

[DanWEC]

What field is that Legoman?

I'm amazed at the pessimism on this board... is the industry really that bad?? I'm progressing through.. I'm a recent University grad, just barely over 100 hours, just finished a float rating, and just building x-country time for a MIFR. Should have the rating and CPL by 200 hours in the spring. Is this really what I'm getting into??
I was expecting a rocky start, making maybe 30-40K a year inconsistantly, but it's dissappointing to see that there is no security after that.

It is terrible the pay scale in this industry- it is by far the most disproportional to the cost of training of any industry - but the fact is, it isn't difficult. Flying is easy. Lots of memory work at first, but that's about it. Almost anybody can do it. (Though there is definitely an art to doing it WELL). If there were much stricter standards, to the point of being unrealistic based on the requirements to be be a pilot, it would even things out- it's simple economics.
It's also too bad that there are so many pilots willing to work for very little- that dictates the economics of the entire industry, but it's a fact we have to live with. If there were far less pilots, (Maybe a cap on CPL's by TC, with application and competition to obtain one!!) then demand by employers would go up, and maybe they'd even have to fight for employeees and making sweeter offers to them. Could you imagine that?? Competition by employers????

Anyways, someone please say that I'm not going into the worst industry in the world, because it sure seems like it by listening to all this.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Can someone help me out here?

What is this " Paying your dues " thing I read over and over that you guys in aviation are required to do?

[Brown Bear]

Can someone help me out here?

What is this " Paying your dues " thing I read over and over that you guys in aviation are required to do?

The answer is really simple. They don't think you're "entitled" to get a job flying an airplane until you've kissed enough ass!

[mattedfred]

Can someone help me out here?

What is this " Paying your dues " thing I read over and over that you guys in aviation are required to do?

were you lucky enough to start out flying the aircraft you wanted to retire off of or at least spend most of your flying career at the controls of?

i really like the champ but i'm glad i have had the opportunity to fly other aircraft

[Chuck Ellsworth]

So flying different airplanes is " Paying you dues ? ?

In that case I have paid my dues big time because I have flown airplanes a lot of you have only seen pictures of.

[mattedfred]

do you ever answer a direct question .?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

were you lucky enough to start out flying the aircraft you wanted to retire off of or at least spend most of your flying career at the controls of?

do you ever answer a direct question .?

Yes of course I do, but sometimes I am not sure exactly what the answer should be, in the case above the question did not seem to fit the question I had asked...however my answer is I had no preconceived idea of what airplane I wanted to fly when I first starter flying.

My first job was crop spraying tobacco in a J3 Cub and to this day I have yet to find anything to surpass that except maybe being approved to fly for Mirimax.

But that was not a specific airplane accomplishment.

Is that answer O.K.?

[altiplano]

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[raven54]

This forum never fails to crack me up. People bitch about having to instruct, or ramp, or be a dispatcher. What ever route is chosen there is always someone saying that it is shit. . says we shouldn't have to "pay our dues" or whatever. That term really just means working your way up from entry level (read; ramp, dipatch...whatever) to where you want to be. It's all about supply and demand. If there were a shit pile of jobs out there requiring no more than a CPL and a heartbeat we wouldn't have all this bafoonery/horseshit slung on here day in and day out. If there is a job out there that is not below your standards, take it, if if otherwise, don't and keep looking until these employees realize they have . Yeager at their desk....pretty simple no? I worked the ramp for 2 years. Would I change that? @#$! NO. I live where I want to live, make good coin, have a big house, and only work half the year flying a 705 machine (left seat). I also started on the ramp a few few months after 9/11, so things were tight then as well.

There isn't much out there, so you may have the "insult" of having to . some bags. Suck it up Nancy's.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

. says we shouldn't have to "pay our dues" or whatever.

I don't know what you mean by paying your dues...no where in my training was there a " paying your dues " subject to learn and be able to comply with.

And please don't tell me how difficult it was to find a job flying when you started because it has always been that way.

[Brown Bear]

They don't think you're "entitled" to get a job flying an airplane until you've kissed enough ass!

That's BS Brown - enough red herring in the water from you already...

Nobody is "entitled" to any job ass kissing or not. Most low time guys won't find a job in an airplane right away if ever. For you to call a hardworking rampie or dispatcher who hasn't yet found a seat yet an ass kisser is an insult to them, your colleagues and this profession. Get off your pedestal and put yourself in the shoes of guys getting a start and not getting anywhere. Should they just walk away from this business? "Oh well can't get a seat after trying every company in the country for a year or 2, better go back to school and be an accountant..."

Insulting newbs trying to get a start and telling guys they should sit and wait for a cherry first job is bullshat. I hope everyone gets one but it ain't gonna' happen. What do you think they should do when they don't find one?

You want to talk about an "insult to your colleagues, and this profession..." Requiring (using) new pilots to preform manual labour on a ramp, paying absolute crap wages, is THE insult to the "Profession"!!!! If you think a hell of a lot of "ass kissing" is not involved, you're still living in your parent's basement.
Companies are USING pilots.

[raven54]

Easy there .. I'm just saying what I think the term means on here these days as my previous post says. I didn't say how difficult it was or wasn't for me to find a job, I said times were tight, which they were, as now, and apparently they were back in the day as you said.

. says we shouldn't have to "pay our dues" or whatever.

I don't know what you mean by paying your dues...no where in my training was there a " paying your dues " subject to learn and be able to comply with.

And please don't tell me how difficult it was to find a job flying when you started because it has always been that way.

I'm not sure where you got this defensive position from my previous post.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I'm not sure where you got this defensive position from my previous post.

Don't take it personal as it is not personal.

The internet is a poor communication method sometimes due to the lack of one on one contact it can be easy to take the wrong meaning.

[C-GGGQ]

I was expecting a rocky start, making maybe 30-40K a year inconsistantly, but it's dissappointing to see that there is no security after that.

HA!! Never saw more than half that instructing.

[altiplano]

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[raven54]

I'm not sure where you got this defensive position from my previous post.

Don't take it personal as it is not personal.

The internet is a poor communication method sometimes due to the lack of one on one contact it can be easy to take the wrong meaning.

Understood.. :p

[Big Pistons Forever]

One of the earlier posts said "it is what it is"...how true. The reality is pilots are not going to change the industry terms and conditions, so it is best if you go in with your eyes wide open. You may have no choice to work for crappy money or an asshole boss, but you always have a choice about conducting a safe flight. This is one area where the buck stops at the pilots seat(s). The hardest decision of your career won't be about money or days off, it will be when the boss implies you either take the flight or look for a new job. Unfortunately many if not most of Canada's commercial pilots will find themselves in that position at some point in their career, I know I did. When it happened to me and the conversation starting getting really ugly I eventually rattled off my home address. Puzzled my boss asked why I had just told him my address "So you know here to send my Record of Employment" I replied. It was IMHO the single best decision I ever made as a pilot.

[loopa]

Haha Good Job Piston !

[petey]

If you love to do it ... stick with it! More education is not a bad idea of course, options are good. But a degree is also far from a guaranteed job! Times are tough right now. I have 2 buddies who both finished their petroleum engineering degrees in April. Neither have found work. I'm just kind of tired of people on this site belly-aching about aviation like it's "unique". It's not.

[square]

Another thing that bugs me is "oh they don't pay us anything!" Well, how much money does a company really have to pay their pilots? They are losing money, and they don't make a whole lot, so you can bet they don't have endless cash to pay their pilots with. Those that do (Air Canada) do pay their pilots well.

You have that a little bit backwards.. a lot small operators in the bush make awesome profit margins and their pilots take home twice to five times what the starting wage at Air Canada is.. and Air Canada makes less money than anyone. They hemmorhage it.

[Randleman]

What field is that Legoman?

I'm amazed at the pessimism on this board... is the industry really that bad?? I'm progressing through.. I'm a recent University grad, just barely over 100 hours, just finished a float rating, and just building x-country time for a MIFR. Should have the rating and CPL by 200 hours in the spring. Is this really what I'm getting into??
I was expecting a rocky start, making maybe 30-40K a year inconsistantly, but it's dissappointing to see that there is no security after that.

30-40 K

sorry i couldnt help but laugh

[Randleman]

Anyways, someone please say that I'm not going into the worst industry in the world, because it sure seems like it by listening to all this.

And to answer your question DanWEC, you are not going into the WORST. It is very bad at the moment, but it will get better-it comes in waves and it's all about having patience and being in the right spot when the hiring comes. It's a lot of sacrifice though, so if you aren't willing to make HUGE sacrifice, stop now and go try something else.

Best of luck