Hot Fuel wrote:Once again the AvCanada hypocrisy rears its ugly head…simply amazing how quickly many on this sight jump to conclusions without any first hand knowledge of the events and a complete absence of facts. And then to add insult to injury some take it to a whole other level and actually blame the regulator and the duty and rest periods.
I have been in cockpits with crewmembers that routinely catch a couple of winks and guess what… rest periods, duty days etc had nothing to do with it because it was their first day on duty after being off for the past 10 days!
Whatever happened to personal integrity and owning up to ones errors, it seems todays way is to dodge, deflect and find a scapegoat.
So, what you are saying is, there is nothing wrong with today's regulations regarding duty days, rest periods etc.? And, since guys you fly with "routinely" sleep in the cockpit, that it's alright for all of us to sleep on the job? 'fraid I don't agree....
I have no idea what was going in that cockpit. But 150 miles is a long way to fly with no talk on the radio 'specially in that neck-of-the-woods. If they were both sleeping, duty day issues or not those two are real sound sleepers. Sure wish I could sleep that good
If it was porn maybe they wouldn't have been distracted for so long (cracks at sexual performance don't just sound the same in text form).
On the more serious note now.... I think two men have flown their last airbus if this is the case and Delta really does have a "zero tolerance" for this.
arictaylor wrote:
and Delta really does have a "zero tolerance" for this.
Why would they have anything else?
If you can't pay attention to your job when you only do it 80-90hrs a month, I don't think you should be doing it at all. Flying is a privilege not a right, and it comes with responsibility, the least we can do is take it seriously.
Everyone is complaining about lack of movement and the industry being bottom heavy on drivers - well, two spots just opened up unless they have a REALLY good reason we don't yet know about.
If they stayed at cruise altitude/speed until just before their ETA they would be about 150 miles past destination, so it sounds entirely plausible. I think cockpit discipline in the United States is going to get a bit of a boost after this incident.
So, what you are saying is, there is nothing wrong with today's regulations regarding duty days, rest periods etc.? And, since guys you fly with "routinely" sleep in the cockpit, that it's alright for all of us to sleep on the job? 'fraid I don't agree....
I thought I was pretty clear, no hidden message in my words.
Clearly, without any evidence, first hand knowledge or facts some of the AvCanada brain trust incorrectly determined the crew was sleeping. Then it was determined that because they were sleeping they must have been sleeping because they were fatigued. Finally if they were fatigued it must have been because of duty limits.
I was merely pointing out that just because one is having a nap in a cockpit it doesn’t automatically mean they were fatigued because of current duty limits.
I find it telling that once the AvCanada determination was made that they were sleeping the AvCanada brotherhood mentality surfaced and quickly the blame was shifted to the FAA and Transport Canada…its wasn’t the crews fault for grossly failing in their duties and responsibilities, it’s the regulators and their rules.
I see this as a misguided effort at supporting an unsupportable position, the crew messed up…plain and simple.
Hot Fuel wrote:I see this as a misguided effort at supporting an unsupportable position, the crew messed up…plain and simple.
The crew truly did mess up, but I don't see this as a misguided effort to obsolve them of blame. I see it as never missing an opportunity to shed light on our woefully archaic flight and duty time regulations.
Hot Fuel wrote:I see this as a misguided effort at supporting an unsupportable position, the crew messed up…plain and simple.
The crew truly did mess up, but I don't see this as a misguided effort to obsolve them of blame. I see it as never missing an opportunity to shed light on our woefully archaic flight and duty time regulations.
I think Hot Fuel's beef was with some who immediately assumed it was a fatigue issue, and pointed fingers at the regulator.......
However, some light certainly needs to be shed on our flight and duty time regs, as you stated.
For Immediate Release
October 27, 2009
Contact: Laura Brown (Laura.J.Brown@FAA.gov)
Phone: (202) 267-3883 or (202) 359-3680
FAA Revokes Pilot Licenses
The Federal Aviation Administration has revoked the licenses of two Northwest Airlines pilots who overflew their destination airport on October 21, 2009 while operating Flight 188 from San Diego to Minneapolis.
The pilots were out of contact with air traffic controllers for an extended period of time and told federal investigators that they were distracted by a conversation. Air traffic controllers and airline officials repeatedly tried to reach them through radio and data contact, without success.
The emergency revocations cite violations of a number of Federal Aviation Regulations. Those include failing to comply with air traffic control instructions and clearances and operating carelessly and recklessly.
The revocations are effective immediately. The pilots have 10 days to appeal the emergency revocations to the National Transportation Safety Board.
Brown Bear is correct I was taking issue with those that can’t wait for facts and start creating their own version of events that ultimately blames the regulator.
The Bottom line for me is actually me!
I am responsible for ensuring I am fit for duty and I am responsible for ensuring I get adequate rest prior to reporting for duty. Just me, not the regulator nor anybody else.
That means sometimes I have to go bed instead of doing something that might be more appealing. It also means I might have to say no to my employer when they schedule something that I believe is too tight.
For me it’s all about personnel integrity, I won’t compromise mine because at the end of the day it’s all I really have. The pay cheque or for that matter a job is not worth me compromising my integrity.
Perhaps the last thing to consider is that duty limits should be viewed as guidelines, yes they publish a hard do not exceed number but the rules don’t say “thou shalt operate to the maximum” in fact the rules say you shall report fit for duty.
I feel bad for these pilots. These are honest (sort of) hard working pilots; one of them with over 36 years experience... did they fail the system or did the system fail them? What lead up to this? What involvement did the company have in flying two pilots that were obviously fatigued?
These days with SMS I'm surprised they just didn't come clean (assuming they aren't telling the truth) and play the duty-day card... but it's going to be awfully hard for them to dig themselves out of this hole.
Poor guys... that could have been any one of us. I don't know anyone who hasn't fallen asleep in the flight deck from time to time. I call bullshit if you tell me you haven't...
station60 wrote:I feel bad for these pilots. These are honest (sort of) hard working pilots; one of them with over 36 years experience... did they fail the system or did the system fail them? What lead up to this? What involvement did the company have in flying two pilots that were obviously fatigued?
These days with SMS I'm surprised they just didn't come clean (assuming they aren't telling the truth) and play the duty-day card... but it's going to be awfully hard for them to dig themselves out of this hole.
Poor guys... that could have been any one of us. I don't know anyone who hasn't fallen asleep in the flight deck from time to time. I call bullshit if you tell me you haven't...
Did you EVEN bother to READ the rest of the thread. They weren't fatigued. They were pissing around with their laptop computers.......while they flew 144+ persons, around. If I were in the back, and my pilots were playing with their laptops, I'd be quite pissed. Now back to the ESL course with you.
Washington (CNN) -- The Federal Aviation Administration has revoked the licenses of the two Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot a Minnesota airport by 150 miles during a 78-minute period of radio silence last week.
Capt. Timothy B. Cheney, 53, and First Officer Richard I. Cole, 54, were piloting Northwest Flight 188 from San Diego, California, to the Minneapolis-St. Paul airport Wednesday when air traffic controllers lost radio contact with the Airbus A320 over the Denver, Colorado, area.
"The pilots were out of contact with air traffic controllers for an extended period of time and told federal investigators that they were distracted by a conversation," the FAA said.
"Air traffic controllers and airline officials repeatedly tried to reach them through radio and data contact, without success."
Cheney and Cole told investigators they were using personal laptop computers during the flight, in violation of company policy, and lost track of time, the National Transportation Safety Board has said.
The FAA said the revocations cite several violations of regulations, including failure to comply with air traffic control and clearances and operating carelessly and recklessly.
The pilots have 10 days to appeal the revocations, which are effective immediately, to the NTSB, the FAA said.
Flight 188 carried 144 passengers, the two pilots and three flight attendants.
Cheney was hired in 1985 and has more than 20,000 hours of flight time, while Cole was hired in 1997 and has about 11,000 hours of flight time, according to an NTSB report released Monday.
Neither pilot reported having had an accident, incident or violation; neither had any ongoing medical conditions; and neither said he was tired, the report said.
They each had had a 19-hour layover in San Diego; neither said he had slept or argued during the flight, but both said "there was a distraction" in the cockpit, according to the report.
The pilots said there was "a concentrated period of discussion where they did not monitor the airplane or calls" from air traffic control, though both said they heard conversation on the radio, the report said.
Neither pilot said he noticed messages sent by company dispatchers, it added. It said the men were talking about a new monthly crew flight scheduling system put into place in after Northwest's merger with Delta Air Lines.
"Each pilot accessed and used his personal laptop computer while they discussed the airline crew flight scheduling procedure," the report said. "The first officer, who was more familiar with the procedure, was providing instruction to the captain."
Neither pilot said he was aware of where the plane was until a flight attendant called the cockpit about five minutes before the plane was to have landed and asked their estimated time of arrival, the report said.
"The captain said, at that point, he looked at his primary flight display for an ETA and realized that they had passed" the airport, the report said.
After 78 minutes of radio silence, the pilots re-established radio contact with air traffic controllers, according to the report.
After landing at Minneapolis-St. Paul, both voluntarily underwent alcohol breath tests, which proved negative, the report said.
I would hate to jump to conclusions on this one but here is what I know:
1) If I had to guestimate, I would say more than 90% of ATC calls are heard and responded to.
2) A chime from the FA's IS loud enough to hear even though you are on your laptop or reading paper, etc
3) The chime from the ACARS IS loud enough to includes number 2 above
4) I am not sure about airbus but anyone that flies them please pipe in. When reaching a TOD or end of route on the FMS a lighting system of some sort will alert you to this (at least the boeing does).
5) If they were BOTH on their laptop what really are the chances that BOTH would miss 1-4 above.
6) Even if they were preoccupied doing something else what are the chances of both of them NEVER taking a quick boo at the ND for a quick glimpse in the course of an hour and a half.
These are just the quick things that popped in my head. There is definitely (well 99.999999999%) something that isn't being told. Personally I don't think there is any way they could be on their laptops and miss the above. Why did it take this long for anyone to say anything. Did they work out some kind of deal with the airline that if they admit they didn't fall asleep they would be paid off or something? Look how negatively the fatigue issue affected the 400Q in buffalo. The public probably thought the comapny pushed their pilots too hard. I don't know but obviously something is not being told here.
