Buttonville Airport . . . CYKZ

[bizjets101]

A lot more info on Buttonville/Sifton's/and Markham Airport here;

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=67437

Here also is a map of Pickering, as you can see, Markham Airport is partially already located on part of the property expropriated in starting in 1972.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/ontario/air-azr ... u-1513.htm

Leggat was forced to move when Barker Field at Lawrence and Dufferin closed, so they relocated on an already existing grass strip called Buttonville in 1953.

In 1962 it became an officially recognized airport. In 1963 Derek C. Sifton (3rd generation) transferred the airport from his name to Armadale the family company. Not sure when it was purchased however.

Though I agree that private property owners have the right to buy/sell/develop property, at the same time we (Canada) have laws about expropriating land for the good of the people.

This is how we got the Allan Expressway, the 427 and many other roads.

So does Buttonville fall into this category. I think it does - problem is the clout the Teachers Pension fund must carry, would take deep pockets to go against them.

I'm sure legal documents could be filed that could delay and tie up construction, and possibly even delay the closing of Buttonville - but most likely would be a losing cause.

I'm confused by Sifton's comments regarding building at Pickering, you'd think if he really cared, and planned to see Toronto Airways succeed beyond the closing of Buttonville - they'ed have already had a plan together.

Leads me to believe he is feeding his staff BS for the next four years - sounds like a politician!!

I guess it's time to get the press involved, I'm very surprised there was zero reporting on Markham Airport as a replacement, who the owners of the airport really are, what are their plans now that Buttonville is closing - and go out and interview them!!!!

I still say turn Downsview into a GA airport!!! (Of course that won't happen).

[LegoMan]

So no more dodging crashing Cirrus aircraft? FML!

[Lost Lake]

Suck it up and accept the new generation of flying. 90% of the people on this continent only see flying through major airport windows. Flying is showing up 3 hours early to be totaly debased by unneccessary screenings, then hearded like cattle through tunnels onto their ride.

They have no sympathy for light aircraft or their owners. Small airports all over Canada are either being shut down, or having their services greatly reduced. Sudbury lost their Control Tower. Elliot Lake is now a part time airport.

Buttonville is probably the most stragically located airport in Toronto, other than the island. That airport should have been publicly owned years ago. Noboddy's fault except the short sighted aministrators of the GTA. Sifton wanted bought out years ago, but they didn't listen.

[Heliian]

The plan to sell or redevelop the land has been around forever, now that it's worth a million times more as residential/commercial/whatever it's a done deal, the taxman is happy too, just think of the revenue for them.

[LegoMan]

The plan to sell or redevelop the land has been around forever, now that it's worth a million times more as residential/commercial/whatever it's a done deal, the taxman is happy too, just think of the revenue for them.

No doubt that land is worth a lot. Not only for residential but for manufacturing or warehousing. It's within minutes to nearly 3 major highways (404,401,407). I wonder if they will try to relocate Buttonville somewhere north of the city, maybe Newmarket area? The present location is surrounded by overdevelopment of offices and homes and would be suited better as a place of business or residence. Not to mention the reduction in noise pollution.

[albertdesalvo]

Not to mention the reduction in noise pollution.

Noise pollution?? The place is right beside highway 404, with traffic roaring past 24/7. The highway is a lot louder than the airport.

[LegoMan]

Driving east a few blocks from the airport, you can barely hear the highway if at all. But I can still hear Cessnas buzzing miles away. Not to mention the medevac choppers flying by at 1am. The airport was once in a great location, it's been surrounded by overdeveloped of commercial and residential properties and if you ask the taxpayers in that area, they would rather have a shopping centre than an airport that has no scheduled commercial flights out of it. Don't compare a highway which tens of thousands of people use each day to go to work to make money and connects the northern suburbs with downtown Toronto to an airport that serves only the aviation nerds and the wealthy who can afford to fly a private jet in there. My opinion is if Porter developed in Buttonville and had that airport as the base, this would not have happened. But we have too many GA airports in the city and we just could use the land for better purposes.

[bizjets101]

Hmmm, how many GA airports is too many??

Here is a map of all the local airports, any suggestions where to move 350 aircraft??

Click Here

[bcrosby]

Please elaborate..

From what I understand, they have 600 acres to work with. All it would take is some $$$ to get bigger runway(s) and hangar space.

[LegoMan]

I dont think the city, province and taxpayers really care where people move their toys. There is Oshawa, Brampton, Guelph, Burlington, Simcoe. If thats too far for ya....too bad.

[bcrosby]

Hmmm, how many GA airports is too many??

I don't think the issue is too many GA airports.. But not enough Commercial airports.

A lot of commercial operators used YKZ. Now, their only options are YTZ and YOO.

Think of all the media companies that fly out of YKZ, 640 News (I think they still do), CTV, Global, Skywords, and 680 News.

Granted those guys are just 'copters and 172s, but other compnies like FlightExec and Ornge who need long runways are going to be pooched.

Do you think the Canadian HQs for BMW and Honda would have been located where they are if YKZ didn't exist? I don't think so. So those guys are fucked too.

Really, the only option is to sink a few million into CNU8 and do things right where YKZ went wrong.

[mcrit]

Have any of you guys ever met the fella that currently runs CNU8?

[albertdesalvo]

Here is a map of all the local airports,

There's a few "airports" on that map that are nothing but grass strips on private farms. Options are far less than that map would have you believe.

[Chaxterium]

Any word on what Seneca plans on doing? Move to Markham I guess?

[bizjets101]

If at any time in the past, the Sifton's had been serious in selling, I've no doubt - Mom would have got on the phone and made it happen.

These are wealthy people, with even wealthier friends. Just like now, they cut a deal with Brookfield and Cadillac. See, no need to hang up a real estate sign, just a private little deal and everybody gets paid.

[MCB]

Any word on what Seneca plans on doing? Move to Markham I guess?

It's being researched... aka no one knows yet

[fleet16b]

I've done work for them in the past
The current Manger at Markham is actually a Property Manager paid by the Thompson Corp to manage the land investment.
Markham is operated as an airport but in reality just barely and has been neglected for years.
Not much improvement , poor hangers etc. The worst part is the unfriendly attitude you will receive from the staff. I know many that were run off before they even got out of the car in the parking lot. Not a good way to encourage growth.
They also have a small "museum" but in reality it has been more a harm to the aircraft it collected that a conservation. Improper storage of some rare items etc.
Any time I did work for the Airport or the Museum, I was paid by a Thompson Corp. cheque. Same as the Manager.

[mcrit]

I know what you are talking about Fleet. It damn near broke my heart to see so much history left out in the rain and snow. I have to give credit where credit is due however. The guy that actually does the work around there was always a really good guy; very helpful.

[fleet16b]

I know what you are talking about Fleet. It damn near broke my heart to see so much history left out in the rain and snow. I have to give credit where credit is due however. The guy that actually does the work around there was always a really good guy; very helpful.

I can think of one guy that does contract work moving a/c etc for them and he is a great guy.
As I said others in charge would just as soon run people off as talk to them. This has unfortunately given the place a bad name /reputation, When is the last time you heard soemeone say " lets fly over to Markham for a coffee/ breakfast etc" ?
This is not a good way to run business especially if you are trying to expand an airport.
It seems the Thompson Corp has been content to sit on the property and let things run amok so to speak. My impression from past experience is that they really had no interest in doing much there but allowed the Property Manger to indulge in his aviation interests while caring for the property. Why not, it creates a tax write off and keeps the impression that it is an airport that could be expanded.
To give the Thompson Corp their due though, they bought this land in the 80's and were able to foresee future growth of the GTA and what is happening now. Maybe they will become the new Buttonville or maybe a new Industrial Park or Sub-division,we'll see.
But if they do hopefully they will get some people that actually know how to operate an airport properly and not someone who go around barking at people and chasing them away.

[RatherBeFlying]

There's a whole bunch of businesses that decided to locate in Beaver Creek and West of the 404 because they could base their aircraft there, and fly out to make deals with customers without going through the zoo at Pearson. They fly everything from 172's up to small jets. Then there's multinationals like IBM and Allstate that want to be close to an airport that the really big bosses can fly into.

YOO is besieged and constrained.

If I was an entrepreneur based at Buttonville, I'd be looking to relocate to Kitchener-Waterloo or Hamilton where's there's better facilities than YKZ and you're still in the GTA.

Hey TradePort, time to set up a business park.

Brantford's a nice airport, but there's no ILS.

Barrie's got a really nice runway, but it's a bit tough driving into Toronto to do business and there's lots of snow and no ILS.

A big piece of the relocation decision will be on where the boss wants to live and play. If there's no ILS, how far is the drive from the alternate?

It's no fun driving into the big smoke from YHM and YKF (or from YKZ for that matter); so, if you have a jet, now's the time to get a puddlejumper or twin turboprop to get to YTZ when you have to talk with the bankers.

By the time Armadale and Cadillac Fairview have built new office space on YKZ, they will find themselves competing with empty space in Beaver creek and West of 404 -- karma

[Married a Canadian]

Firstly...I think closing KZ is just plain stupid..and for the worst reasons possible (does Toronto really need more condos and strip malls...how exciting)

However for all that think moving to Downsview is an option...I suggest you come to the ACC and see exactly WHERE it is located on the approach to YYZ (on the 24s) and in relation to departure (on the 05s and 06s). YYZ traffic on arrival is descending out of 3000 feet on the glideslope so ZD arrivals would have to be lower than 2000ft (North and South). Heavy departures off runway 05 climb straight into the teeth of 33 deps off ZD (and in IFR they are climbing to 3000ft)...try getting the A340 above those guys!
In addition to that you have the city zone to the south and the CN tower aswell...all in the way of coasting in at the shoreline low level.

It would be next to impossible on an IFR day to have ANY approach into Downsview without delaying traffic into Pearson. That is what we do now for De havilland...in that we build a gap into the arrivals on the 24s or stop departures.
With the level of traffic operating at KZ right now.....that would not work into ZD.

It may seem like a waste but the location is what holds it back. Plus you would be breaking separation standards, terrain clearance and minimum vectoring altitudes from an ATC standpoint in vectoring into the airport.
Sorry KZ is closing..but don't pine for Downsview...it ain't going to happen period...and that should not be viewed as anything else as practical.

[N2]

Well anyone considering a move to YOO I can help you out with a tie-down that just happens to have a PA28 to go along with it!

[bizjets101]

Click Here from Daily Planet interview with Derek Sifton.

“We see our business just like any other corporation that has factories that get relocated now and then, and that’s what we have to do. We have to find a new home for everything that we do here,” said Sifton. “The benefit we have is we have a whole community that we’re hoping can pick up and move.”

Also states the Sifton's own Oshawa Airport?? Is that correct???

[MarkhamResident]

[howard40]

It is a shame that the feds, province , or city did not jump in and buy buttonville years ago. It will be a shame if there is no GA "biz jet" releiver for pearson.There is nowhere for the "Navajo" crowd to play either. I fear YTZ will slowly become a "Jet a turbo prop" show with little room for any ga visitors.
There are certainly some deep pocket types around buttonville with aircraft. The real heavy hitters will afford Pearson. This one makes little sense unless they build a "mini pearson" around Markham.. it will be expensive but I bet a Dash 8 airline could make money on it similar to Porter.