Foreign Pilots flying in Canada

[Gilles Hudicourt]

And also noteworthy is that the 17 pilots laid off were flying Widebody aircraft flying mostly overseas markets and whose busiest season is the summer. To state that Sunwing having foreigners is a cause of these 17 being laid off is a smoke screen irrelevant to the issue.

Who said anywhere that there was a direct relation between the Sunwing Foreign pilots and the Transat layoffs ? Here is where all this began.

Air Transat announced 17 layoffs for the winter, while at the same time Group Transat was contracting out flights to Canjet that was using foreign crews. That was a hard one to swallow. Our Union screamed bloody murder and rightfully so. Transat then stated that Canjet was forced to use Foreign crews to remain competitive because SunWing did it big time. At that moment, we came to realize that perhaps it was our elected officials that were not defending Canadian Interests, or rather they were actively defending the pocketbooks of certain people while carrying on with policies that were against the interests of other companies and of Canadian workers. ALPA went in front of a Senate Committee on Nov 30 2011 where the problem was brought up. ACPA brought up the same problem in front of the same senate Committee around the same time.

This problem caught our attention because our pilots were laid off simultaneously with foreign pilots being hired at Canjet. Today, even though all our pilots have been recalled and more have been hired since, there are still dozens of pilots in Canada who don't have a job because of these policies.

Reciprocity is ok but not one a single one beyond that.

[ea306]

Correct.

I just read your post after editing and adding not "just" Sunwing Airlines.

In either case, TS being separated from its tour operator is no different that Sunwing Vacations and the Airline.

As it was, the extra lift from the wet lease from Travel Service was a short term solution or opportunity utilized on the PUJ route. No different than other carriers in this country. Personally I do not like that there are jobs lost not only for flight deck...but also for cabin crew. This is the first time we have seen this. The Euro Atlantic have SWG cabin crew, the Corsair flights sold by Sunwing Vacations also have no Canadian cabin crew.

Now the question is this: What stops a tour operator from farming out all it's business to outside sources be it Canadian or otherwise if their aviation costs are too high in Canada? The vacation company could just solve this issue by closing down the airline and doing as it did before starting Sunwing Airlines. Sunwing Vacations has been around long before the airline. A customer of many airlines in the past.

So how would that this preserve Canadian Pilot jobs? I would hope this never happens...but who is to say?

[ea306]

I was referencing Skylounger who was quoting Isheetmydrawers.... Re the 17 AIrTransat pilot layoffs.

I can appreciate the pilots position at your company over loosing pilot positions whilst your contractor airline CanJet was hiring....and hiring foreigners at that.

As for CanJet having to hire because SWG pilot labour is so much cheaper; I think that is not correct info. I have many friends over at CanJet and I can tell you that our salaries are much more favorable. Our base salaries are higher and our OT formula is very generous. Admittedly the Travel Service salaries are lower...however the Thomson and TUi Germany Salaries are much much more. Only going from what our visiting pilots tell us....not conclusive evidence....but believable.

To state that CanJet needed to hire foreigners because our costs were lower I would say is complete BS. But how would any of us know for certain? You will have to ask Mark Williams that question.

I fully agree personally with your thoughts of equal reciprocity. This is the only justifiable solution no matter which side of the Atlantic one is from.

Wet leasing worries me. I would only feel good about it if it is also equally reciprocating.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Wet leasing worries me. I would only feel good about it if it is also equally reciprocating.

Wet Leasing worries the hell out of me and I have also begun to look at it in order to change how things are done there.

Wet Leases are approved by the Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA). Present Wet-Leases are approved under Section 60 of the Canada Transportaion Act and Section 8.2 of the Air Transport Regulations.

Around 2004, ALPA was successful in opposing an application to the CTA by a Canadian Tour Operator for Wet Leasing a foreign carrier. Today we are helpless. I'm trying to figure out what changed between 2004 and today. I suspect I already know but regardless, things must change.

It's not true that we are going to let the current legislation allow for Canadian carriers to be able to legally get rid of their whole Canadian Registered fleet and replace it with the Wet Lease of foreign carriers. Either the legislation is wrong, or someone is reading it wrong.

[mbav8r]

This foreing pilot BS has to stop, good jobs will be lost if Sunwing is allowed to continue it's current practice.

Air Transat reaches deal with pilots that ties wage increases to profits
By: Ross Marowits, The Canadian Press

MONTREAL - Air Transat has reached a "concession" agreement with its 420 pilots that defers wage increases and ties them to reaching undisclosed profit targets in 2015.

Under an agreement approved in 2010, pilots were slated to earn annual wage increases through 2014.

Three years of scheduled increases will now be deferred into lump-sum payments upon the agreement's expiry on April 30, 2015. But payments are conditional on the attainment of "certain financial targets."

In addition, incentives available to pilots would be deducted from any final payments.

The airline's parent company, Transat A.T. (TSX:TRZ.B) said the move to a deferred wage increase was pursued in wake of the company's efforts launched last fall to restore its profitability.

"This agreement was negotiated with respect and in a climate of openness, and it reflects the constructive dialogue that Air Transat maintains with its employees and union representatives," said Transat CEO Jean-Marc Eustache.

Spokeswoman Debbie Cabana declined to provide any details about the wage increase, possible lump sums or financial targets included in the agreement.

"It really depends on a number of things ...(but) this is a kind of concession," she said in an interview.

Meanwhile, Transat is improving its product offering, including retrofitting its aircraft, in order to return to sustained profitability despite its expectations for a challenging 2012.

It is also reducing overhead costs, has cut 143 positions, "optimized" its IT systems and outsourced aircraft to third parties. Plans call for an expansion of its network of travel agencies, especially in Ontario and Western Canada.

Montreal-based Transat lost $12.2 million, or 32 cents per share last year, compared to a net profit of $65.6 million, or $1.73 per share in 2010. Revenues increased to 3.7 billion from $3.5 billion in 2010.

Air Transat is the main carrier for Transat A.T. is an integrated international tour operator that offers package holidays to more than 60 countries but operates mainly in Europe, the Caribbean, Mexico and the Mediterranean Basin.

The president of the Air Line Pilots Associations couldn't be reached for immediate comment.

On the Toronto Stock Exchange, Transat's shares fell five cents to close at $5.40 in Tuesday trading.

[scopiton]

this has nothing to do with foreign pilots
if you would have read the Q1 2012 financial report, financial loss and increase of operational cost is very well described.
FYI : http://www.transat.com/_pdf/en/investor ... rt1.en.pdf

[mbav8r]

Nope can't see anything in that report to attribute to foreign pilots and the huge cost savings in training and benefits that might be attributed to this practice. Sunwing is able to provide over capacity and cheap seats from their other cost saving initiatives, like lower than average executive pay.
Other than higher fuel cost, which all airlines face, what do you see as the second reason for pressure on the bottom line?

-Furthermore, our seat purchase agreement with Thomas Cook on some destinations on the Canada-U.K. route expired on October 31, 2011 and was not renewed. These changes led to a shift in our operating expenses as the costs of providing transportation services, previously incurred with Thomas Cook and included under Costs of providing tourism services are now borne by our aircraft fleet, which carries our travellers on the Canada-U.K. route. As a result, operating expenses related to our aircraft fleet increased.
-Soaring fuel prices conspired with intense market competition to compress margins over the period.
-First-quarter revenues at our North American subsidiaries derived from sales in Canada and abroad were up $25.3 million (3.7%) from the same period in 2011. Revenue growth was spurred by higher average selling prices despite 0.9% slippage in traveller volumes compared with the first quarter of 2011. A drop in traveller volumes was recorded on routes departing Canada for sun destinations (due to our move to cut capacity), offset by higher load factors on European-bound routes. Transat posted a first-quarter operating loss of 2.7% compared with 0.9% for the corresponding period of 2011. The pressure on our bottom line stemmed primarily from higher fuel costs and a fiercely competitive environment

[scopiton]

I read

a fiercely competitive environment

you can interpret this sentence any way you want.
if hiring foreign pilots would have been the root cause for AT's low results, it would have started earlier than 2011/12, when this practice started few years ago.

[whipline]

Sorry MB but the foreign pilots actually cost more then having our own pilots fly. The slight cost savings come by not having to do a bunch of initials every year. Hence the reason why we want to start up a part time program for Canadians just looking to fly in the winter and take the summers off. Its cheaper for us if we can find pilots to stick around.

Second Sunwing isn't "flooding" the market. They only expand if its profitable. If you want to figure out who is flooding the market ask yourself which airlines have spare aircraft sitting around during the fall, winter and spring. Sunwing is a tour company with and airline, not the other way around.

From top to bottom everything Sunwing does has a cost advantage over everyone else. Now someones going to chime in with "your pay must suck." My T4 last year was in the 180's. Not the top in the industry but certainly not the bottom.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

When our Air Transat colleagues were being layed-off last fall while our parent company, Group Transat,or one of its fully owned subsidiaries, was contracting flights out to Canjet which was using Foreign pilots to fly its aircraft, we, at Air Transat, felt there was a direct causal relationship between the layoffs and the hiring of the foreign pilots. Our furloughed pilots were real to us, they had names and faces. So we reacted.

I do not think there is any difference between the Air Transat furloughed pilots from last fall, which had names and faces, and the anonymous, nameless and faceless Canadian pilots who are un-employed because their jobs have been taken by foreign pilots. They are all victimized in the same manner, to the same extent and for the same reasons, which is why we need to unite our forces to prevent such things from happening again.

[Gino Under]

mbav8r

So far, your posts contain very little substance. I'm still deciding on their intellectual content.
We all know hiring qualified pilots WITH a type rating is more cost effective and saves ANY company money. The hiring of foreign pilots while the present pilot market reality in Canada is what it is, not YOU nor anyone else can use a valid ethical excuse for this practice.

Any questions?

Why don't you try defending Canadian pilots instead of a disgusting political f**kup and the misuse and abuse by dodgey companies.

Gino Under

[mbav8r]

Gino Under, I have a question, you do know I'm against the hiring of foreign pilots right?
Was your last post directed at someone else?

[Gino Under]

mbav8r

My sincerest apology to you for my last post. It was aimed at others but for whatever reason (probably beer) I captured the wrong sobriquet. Obviously. So thanks for the smack in the head.

My comment was intended for posts like those of AsheetMaDraws and ea306.

George Dubya said, "You're either with us or you're against us". This is not about business it's about ethics as I see it. If you are Canadian with a Canadian ATPL AND you support the actions of Sunwing or Canjet or both, you are clearly against us, which seems to be the position these two have taken.
...and that's a shame.

Gino Under

[ea306]

I think Gino you have missed the point of my posts.

I do not support the program at SWG in its present form. I do not like wet leases. I do not like foreign pilots flying for Sunwing as we saw this last winter.

I do however support any program that creates more jobs for Canadian Pilots. If reciprocating equals more Canadians enjoying quality employment then I am all for it. That sir does not make anyone who sees the benefit of reciprocating with foreign partners immoral or intellectually challenged.

You have stated that not a single foreign pilot should be flying in Canada doing work for a Canadian company. You are entitled to your opinion. In principle I think we all agree for the most part. There is a petition, and I support it. The let that provides for foreign workers needs to be properly balanced So that not a single Canadian Pilot job is lost... Reciprocating fairly will create more Canadian Pilot jobs. That is what I want to see....not more Europeans here in the winter than Canadians sent to Europe in the summer.

At least Sunwing does reciprocate. In fact Sunwing is the only airline in Canada that does reciprocate wet leases and pilots. It just needs to be equally balanced.

Up until your post, these discussions have managed to remain civilized and respectful. Personal attacks do not accomplish anything and only serve to discourage open dialogue. Without open discussion, no understanding of any issue can be fully understood. As an intelligent man I am sure you know this.

[Gino Under]

ea306

Gawd how I miss the ol' A300-600. My favourite aeroplane.
But, back to the discussion.

"Wet leasing worries me. I would only feel good about it if it is also equally reciprocating."
Equality in this sense will never happen.

I participated in the "leasing" arrangement with Air 2000 when I was with C3 back in the day. Good fun it was. EGCC was a fun layover, the Med flying and all that, but I digress.
Little thought was given to reciprocity of any kind in those days and I know the A2K lads weren't too enamoured with us being around taking away their flying and promotions. Remember. In Europe they are used to seasonal employment.

I think what everyone might consider in terms of equal pilot numbers, or reciprocity, is that European and Canadian travel seasons are not as misaligned as some think. The traffic numbers aren't all that different so to think they're busy in summer and we're busy in winter is a notion that isn't exactly correct. Our travel seasons have become more balanced. We should not employ their pilots facing layoff through wet lease to any Canadian carrier.

Today however, I find myself somewhat confused by the references to reciprocity and especially reciprocity with foreign charter airlines. You don't seem to be unique in your support which I don't get or fully understand. But that's me. Please don't misunderstand me on this, I respect your opinion. In fact we're all entitled to an opinion on it because of the impact this is having on our profession in this country.

While I fully understand and appreciate the business rationale behind getting the job done to accomodate profit and investor returns, I find the use of temporary foreign workers in the context of reciprocity as being nothing more than corporate greed (or blatent disregard for the fact that there are qualified Canadian pilots available to meet their needs) and their use (or misuse) of regulations nothing more than disgusting. (I'm not saying what they're doing is illegal) So for me it's all about what's ethical (which this practice clearly isn't) and moral and nothing more.

If a foreign airline can reach an agreement to wet lease a Canadian registered aircraft or aircrafts, then based on the flying requirement for that/those aircraft, why should the foreign carrier take anymore pilots on the wet lease than needed. Therein lies the reciprocity collapse whether or not it is a Canadian carrier wet lease agreement with a foreign carrier or vice versa. I highly doubt those numbers would ever be balanced or equal because of the different markets and travel patterns.

I've said it before, if we're talking wet lease ACMI similar to WJ's 57 then I'd be okay with it. Wet lease arrangements aren't new and they've been around a long time. At C3 we only flew our Canadian registered aircraft and they weren't put on a temporary G registration. Nor did we fly any G registered aircraft while we over there. This SW and CJ arrangement is nowhere near the same leasing arrangement.

Now, if you let me stay with the reciprocity thought process for a moment, then I'd be curious to know the following. If AT and CJ pilots are both ALPA with sound CBAs, and both parent companies are dancing to the Transat Vacations tune, then those two pilot groups should be the ones talking (negotiating/organizing) a pilot reciprocity agreement. Not individually with some foreign IT company who could care less about our pilots. Hell, if Canada allows it, s*its on. I suspect those backroom dealings have more to do with aircraft leases than giving a s*it who flies what, when, and where as long as someone flies them. But, that's just my read and it happens to be my opinion and position. This is where these players cross an ethical line. They're not fooling anyone. Why couldn't layed off AT crews spend 5 or 6 months on contract at CJ or vice versa? Type rating costs again? What's to stop them from offering themselves to SW for the same reasons?

I appreciate your taking the time to explain your thoughts on all this. I think it's important we agree, partially agree, or completely disagree. It's great you're in support of Canadian pilots. But, I have to say in all honesty I really don't get why any reciprocity ideas are even mentioned in these threads primarily because the pilot numbers could, would, and most likely will never be equal. Maybe that's just my analysis but I think it's nonsense. If there's any seasonal pilot exchange at AT, CJ, or SW it should be amongst the three Canadian companies and their affected pilots and aircraft leases should be dry leased until such time their really IS a pilot sortage in this country.
What the cost differential and business dynamics might be is a separate 'business' issue.

Who's riding herd on this? Somebody in Government is asleep at the switch (as usual) I'd say.

Cheers to Gilles. At least he's got his eye on the ball.

Gino Under

[ea306]

Thanks Gino.

Yes the A300-600 and the A310-300 are airplanes I will miss flying. Great memories.

Just thought I might mention that all the noise about this issue does not appear to be all for naught. We pilots here at SWG are very encouraged to hear our management speak of some significant hiring as well as the previously mentioned upgrades. There is talk of a seasonal contractor program with Canadian pilots being hired to fill the seasonal void. Sunwing grows to be three times it's size in the winter as it does in the summer. Thus the commercial challenge to meet the demands of the winter program.

I expect our training department will be kept very busy looking after the demand of training new hires as well as the upgrades. Hopefully as the summer programs continue to grow, a balance will be found eventually where employment can be offered all year round as opposed to seasonally.

Appreciate the tone of your last post.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

This problem is not limited to Sunwing and Canjet it seems. This week I received two messages. One from a pilot from a helicopter operator who told me that many of the helicopter pilots at his company were either Australians or New-Zealanders. HE didn't specify what their immigration status was though, so I don't know if we are talking about the same thing. Another pilot from a fixed wing corporate operator told me his department, for reasons he could not understand, imported many of it's pilots from the US, although they could have hired in Canada. I will look into both issues to see if we have a trend of if these cases are different.

Edit: I got a third similar message from a pilot who told me that a Canadian 727 cargo operator hired Foreign pilots to fly their 727s as captain.