F-35 looking more like white elephant

[sky's the limit]

what airplane the CF should buy

So, you want billions and billions of dollars for an airplane ... and you claim that the even the mission is classified, so no one else can know what even the requirements are, so there cannot be any discussion of the billions and billions of taxpayer dollars that you are going to spend.

Nice. You sure sound like the DOD guy in Ottawa that was convicted of embezzling millions of dollars and when anyone asked him about it, he told them that they weren't allowed to audit him because it was classified The amazing thing is that they somehow caught him. One has to wonder how much of that stuff goes on, and people don't get caught, because they slap a "classified" sticker on it, whenever anyone dares to ask any questions.

H,

I knew deep down you were a Wikileaks supporter...

Transparency in Gov't, imagine?

stl

[Hedley]

Found it:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2 ... 80403.html

A former public servant was sentenced Thursday to seven years in prison after admitting his key role in a billing scheme that defrauded the government of more than $100 million.

Champagne pleaded guilty in July to fraud and breach of trust. Charges were laid in 2006 in connection with billing irregularities related to computer maintenance contracts at the Department of National Defence, where Champage worked until he was fired in 2003. That was when the irregularities were discovered.

The scheme involved up to $159 million that the federal government paid Hewlett-Packard to manage computer maintenance services at National Defence. The government later said it believed it got nothing in return. Hewlett-Packard said it was told by the department to pay a group of subcontractors, but their work was kept secret from the company.

Paul Champagne played the "it's classified!" card brilliantly at DOD, and lined his pockets with over $100 million dollars.

Anyone remember the half-million dollars airbus had to kick back to the Canadian government, to make the sale to Air Canada?

With this stellar background, what could possibly go wrong with this expenditure of billions and billions of dollars, the details of which are permanently hidden away, because "it's classified!"

[fish4life]

Russian junk

How many hours have you logged in "Russian junk"? How many hours of maintenance have you personally performed on "Russian junk"?

You haven't a clue what you are talking about. If all Russians built was junk, why did the US need to spend a third of a billion dollars per airframe on the F-22?

The so called "Russian junk" although inviable due to the fact of possibly being in conflict with these nations would be perfect because the Russian's know how to operate from junk runways just like most of Canada's runways up north. We need a homemade Canadian fighter with an optional gravel kit / ice runway capable too bad after the Avro Arrow we've lost most of out military genius.

ps not sure the stealth technology would hold up well on gravel though.

[Moose47]

Not too sure where you are getting your intel but I am at 22 Wing, C,F,B, North Bay. We are a very active base despite the loss of our E.W. squadron in August of 1992. Our main 10,000 foot runway was just re-paved.

12 Wing Shearwater is still an active flying base with Sea Kings.

Flying at St. Jean (Saint-Jean) included No. 9 Air Observer School, No. 9 Repair Depot and later the Station Flight. Post-war it has primarily been a training base for recruits both enlisted and officer cadets. It currently is home to the Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School.

Namao (CYED) - 408 'Goose' Tactical Helicopter Squadron flies from there. Incidentally, the base is still there but used by the army now and called Edmonton Garrison Steele Barracks.

Cheers...Chris

[fish4life]

I'm talking about northern Canadian strips

[shitdisturber]

Not too sure where you are getting your intel but I am at 22 Wing, C,F,B, North Bay. We are a very active base despite the loss of our E.W. squadron in August of 1992. Our main 10,000 foot runway was just re-paved.

12 Wing Shearwater is still an active flying base with Sea Kings.

Flying at St. Jean (Saint-Jean) included No. 9 Air Observer School, No. 9 Repair Depot and later the Station Flight. Post-war it has primarily been a training base for recruits both enlisted and officer cadets. It currently is home to the Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School.

Namao (CYED) - 408 'Goose' Tactical Helicopter Squadron flies from there. Incidentally, the base is still there but used by the army now and called Edmonton Garrison Steele Barracks.

Cheers...Chris

I know that technically the bases you refer to are still open but........
The last squadron to operate out of North Bay was 414; coincidentally my last squadron, which was in Comox at the time and is now closed.
Shearwater's runways have been closed to everything but helicopters since sometime in the 90's.
I'll admit to getting St. Jean confused with St. Hubert.
Namao used to have the longest runway in Canada and was a space shuttle alternate; now there's a tank barn across that runway and nothing goes in but choppers.

[Moose47]

<<<Dash-Ate
Post subject: Re: F-35 looking more like white elephant
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:38 am
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I think these are Harper's very own "penis extenders" he likes playing global war-man on our dime. Really improves his status at Bilderberger and G8 meetings...he's a player now >>>

Me thinks you have penis envy!

[Expat]

At 35 millions a copy, and from the technical aspect, the SU35 is a much better choice. We could buy 3 times as many, and would have less of a need for air-to-air refueling...
Besides, the contracts normally include spares and support.
The Russians do not have the history of the US, of terminating support of weapon systems, when the political climate changes. There are a lot of US systems now in the world, where various embargoes prohibits support and spares.
I would not bet that our relations with the US will still be rosy in 30 years. They are changing fast now, and the next right wing lunatic to enter the White House will not make friends here, if he wants to start another war, which he will want...
As a customer, I have learned to use the power of my money, and not simply to bend over, and hand it over...
In Af, the coalition is using all types of soviet hardware, because it is cheaper to operate, and because it is good. They all agree that for this type of terrain, it is better suited. And where will the next war be???

[Hedley]

Data point: The US sold F-14's to Iran, which officially became a "bad boy" in 1979 when the Shah went bye-bye. THIRTY years later, it is estimated that Iran still has 20 F-14's operational in 2009, despite ZERO support from the US.

I would wager that the swing-wing F-14 is a considerably more complex aircraft with respect to maintenance procedures and parts, than the modern Russian aircraft, which you would get delivered with enormous stockpiles of parts when they were new.

I don't buy the "No russian" argument, based solely on parts & supplies. A lot of religion and bigotry in there. I am no great fan of Russians, but I respect good engineering.

[Expat]

+1
My point!

[frosti]

We need a homemade Canadian fighter with an optional gravel kit / ice runway capable

Please name me ONE northern operating base in Canada where there is a requirement for "gravel kits". Our current CF-18's aren't equipped with such modifications and are doing just fine in the Arctic on conventional asphalt runways. No, we will not operate out of Alert.

I don't buy the "No russian" argument, based solely on parts & supplies. A lot of religion and bigotry in there. I am no great fan of Russians, but I respect good engineering.

Great, more nonsense from the "this is cheap and shiny, lets buy it!" crowd. You really have no clue, do you? Never-mind sourcing parts and supplies, how will you operate these Russian aircraft with our NATO and American allies? EVERYTHING is different from the ground up. Right now we can fly into any US base and use their equipment, because its the same standard nation wide. India has to send their SU engines back to Russia to get rebuilt, can you just imagine the logistical nightmare sending engines to Russia in the event of war? I'm glad the DND picked a fighter based on what the CF needs and not based on someones opinion after too many hours playing Ace Combat.

[Beefitarian]

Are you saying Canadians are too stupid to build a capable fighter jet? I think they could but maybe I'm wrong.

[Hedley]

You really have no clue, do you? ... too many hours playing Ace Combat

Hint: this is NOT a western fighter jet. But, guess who is driving?

http://www.pittspecials.com/movies/roll.wmv

[erics2b]

You really have no clue, do you? ... too many hours playing Ace Combat

Hint: this is NOT a western fighter jet. But, guess who is driving?

http://www.pittspecials.com/movies/roll.wmv

One of the few times where it's appropriate to post this stuff, and you restrain!?













You're losing your touch, it seems!

[fish4life]

Are you saying Canadians are too stupid to build a capable fighter jet? I think they could but maybe I'm wrong.

not at all just saying there isn't the support in this country for Canadian engineers to design and build a fighter

[Spokes]

Those f-14s have not been flyable for at least the last 8years. AT least that is the intel we got when I was on Aurora's out there in 03.

[Hedley]

Those f-14s have not been flyable for at least the last 8 years

The US thought they were a serious enough threat, to shoot down an Iranian airliner:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Iran Air Flight 655 (IR655), was a civilian jet airliner shot down by US missiles on 3 July 1988, over the Strait of Hormuz, toward the end of the Iran–Iraq War. The aircraft, an Airbus A300B2-203 operated by Iran Air, was flying from Bandar Abbas, Iran, to Dubai, United Arab Emirates, when it was destroyed by the U.S. Navy's guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes, killing all 290 passengers and crew aboard, including 66 children,[1] ranking it seventh among the deadliest airliner fatalities.[2] It was the highest death toll of any aviation incident in the Indian Ocean and the highest death toll of any incident involving an Airbus A300 anywhere in the world. Vincennes was traversing the Strait of Hormuz, inside Iranian territorial waters, and at the time of the attack IR655 was within Iranian airspace.[3]

According to the US government, the crew identified the Iranian Airbus A300 as an attacking F-14 Tomcat fighter

Ok, I will buy your 8 year number. That means they kept a hideously complicated
airplane flying for 41-8 = 33 years - a bloody THIRD of a century - without support.

You're losing your touch, it seems!

Yeah, I know. I just have trouble believing that after 7 years here, still no one has
a clue what we do. Slow learners?

I would love to see the romper boys here operate off 4,000 feet

Yeah, we know absolutely nothing about russian jets

[Spokes]

I think the vincennes shot down that airliner in 1988. I said at least 8 years. I seem to remember hearing that they were out of service longer than that, but I am not 100% sure. Wikipedia says the by 1985 the kept some flying by stealing parts form others. They also clain they were able to make there own parts as well.

I'm not saying one way or another that this is an endorsement for the f35 or a reason not to get it. Just clarifying a smal issue.


Mike

[shitdisturber]

Those f-14s have not been flyable for at least the last 8 years

The US thought they were a serious enough threat, to shoot down an Iranian airliner:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Iran Air Flight 655 (IR655), was a civilian jet airliner shot down by US missiles on 3 July 1988, over the Strait of Hormuz, toward the end of the Iran–Iraq War. The aircraft, an Airbus A300B2-203 operated by Iran Air, was flying from Bandar Abbas, Iran, to Dubai, United Arab Emirates, when it was destroyed by the U.S. Navy's guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes, killing all 290 passengers and crew aboard, including 66 children,[1] ranking it seventh among the deadliest airliner fatalities.[2] It was the highest death toll of any aviation incident in the Indian Ocean and the highest death toll of any incident involving an Airbus A300 anywhere in the world. Vincennes was traversing the Strait of Hormuz, inside Iranian territorial waters, and at the time of the attack IR655 was within Iranian airspace.[3]

According to the US government, the crew identified the Iranian Airbus A300 as an attacking F-14 Tomcat fighter

Ok, I will buy your 8 year number. That means they kept a hideously complicated
airplane flying for 41-8 = 33 years - a bloody THIRD of a century - without support.

You're losing your touch, it seems!

Yeah, I know. I just have trouble believing that after 7 years here, still no one has
a clue what we do. Slow learners?

I would love to see the romper boys here operate off 4,000 feet

Yeah, we know absolutely nothing about russian jets

Nice try but let's face reality here. Up until the overthrow of the Shah in 1979, Iran was an ally of the US and was supporting their F-14's. Therefore Iran kept their Tomcats going for at best 20 years. Also keep in mind that Ollie North's clandestine activtivities for Reagan and Bush included; are you ready for it, parts for F-14's.

[Beefitarian]

Are you saying Canadians are too stupid to build a capable fighter jet? I think they could but maybe I'm wrong.

not at all just saying there isn't the support in this country for Canadian engineers to design and build a fighter

Actually I was trying to comment in favour of this.

We need a homemade Canadian fighter

Whomever said that is right in my opinion. Politics aside I think however many billions are going to be spent could potentially build some planes. If they're any good we might be able to "gasp" sell them and recover some cost.

Unfourtunately I fear you mean "support" as in enough Canadians being forward thinking enough to approve of this little scheme.

[fish4life]

Yup, you have it bang on Beef. I would love to see a multi-billion dollar program right at here in home in Canada.

[shitdisturber]

Yup, you have it bang on Beef. I would love to see a multi-billion dollar program right at here in home in Canada.

Wouldn't we all, sadly it'll never happen.

[modi13]

Those of you who endorse purchasing a Russian aircraft seem to be ignoring a much larger issue: the F-22 and F-35 are the only 5th generation fighters in production. The SU-35 and comparable Eastern Bloc aircraft are the equivalent of the Super Hornet, and will be outdated at approximately the same time. The Russian and Chinese 5th gen aircraft are still in the design and testing phase, and we have no specs on their performance or whether they would be suitable for Canada, let alone whether their manufacturers would be willing to export them. The F-35 is to the Boeing 787, as the Super Hornet is to the 727, as the SU-35 is to the Tu-154; since there have been problems and delays with the 787 program, Air Canada should just buy TU-154s. After all, they're cheap and they do the same thing, right?

[frosti]

You really have no clue, do you? ... too many hours playing Ace Combat

Hint: this is NOT a western fighter jet. But, guess who is driving?

http://www.pittspecials.com/movies/roll.wmv

What is this supposed to be? Being a driver of that makes you the authority on fighter jet procurement for the Canadian Air Force? Like I said, no clue.

Those of you who endorse purchasing a Russian aircraft seem to be ignoring a much larger issue: the F-22 and F-35 are the only 5th generation fighters in production. The SU-35 and comparable Eastern Bloc aircraft are the equivalent of the Super Hornet, and will be outdated at approximately the same time. The Russian and Chinese 5th gen aircraft are still in the design and testing phase, and we have no specs on their performance or whether they would be suitable for Canada, let alone whether their manufacturers would be willing to export them. The F-35 is to the Boeing 787, as the Super Hornet is to the 727, as the SU-35 is to the Tu-154; since there have been problems and delays with the 787 program, Air Canada should just buy TU-154s. After all, they're cheap and they do the same thing, right?

Someone finally gets it. Well said.

[Hedley]

Being a driver of that makes you the authority on fighter jet procurement for the Canadian Air Force

Where did I say that? You claimed I knew nothing about aviation, which is nonsense. How much PIC time have you logged in Russian jets? How much time have you spent hands-on, maintaining them?

You and the rest of the romper boys arrogantly assert to us mere taxpayers that you're entitled to billions and billions of dollars of our money.

You insult us when we dare to ask any simple, straight-forward questions - which you don't answer, and you won't even say why you won't answer!

You claim "it's classified!", just like that slimy, embezzling DOD employee, Paul Champagne, who stole over $100 million from the taxpayer.

This secret procurement program smells. Billions and billions of dollars, and we're supposed to trust you guys, who won't answer any questions. Uh huh. Just like we trusted Brian Mulroney when the Airbuses were acquired for Air Canada.