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Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:12 pm
by Les Habitants
No one is explicitly disagreeing with you Hedley. I'm sure you can use ANY instrument time you like to those 40 hours, outside of the requirement.
The issue here is when the insurance company/transport canada look at it, what are THEY going to deem as "training." We have already established that "training" must be given by an instructor/qualified person, whereas "experience" can be gained on your own. I agree with Flapless that Transport/Insurance companies can easily argue that you were up there "training" in the examples HE gave.
This has ceased to become an argument and more about your overblown ego and refusal to even read his arguments correctly.
Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:29 pm
by photofly
I agree with Flapless that Transport/Insurance companies can easily argue that you were up there "training" in the examples HE gave.
The safety pilot doesn't give you training by giving you traffic advisories. In fact, it's quite likely he or she would be able to spend the entire flight in silence, and if they didn't you could still say they did and nobody would be able to counter you.
I'm agog to hear of any insurance company disagreeing; and if you're really worried, you can always ask them. My broker has always been very happy to clarify things for me.
Furthermore CAR425.21 is headed "Qualifications of Flight Instructors" and it's obtuse in the extreme to suppose that to "train yourself" you need to be one of those, or that CAR425.21 would apply if you were "self-training" whatever that is supposed to be.
If you need more convincing, look at CAR 101.01:
"flight training" - means a training program of ground instruction and airborne training that is conducted in accordance with the flight instructor guide and flight training manual applicable to the aircraft used; (entraînement en vol)
It's not at all inconsistent with that definition that part of the flight training program is to go and practice on your own, with a safety pilot if safety requires it. The safety pilot does not become your instructor or conduct training; the CFI on the ground who told you to go practice is still your instructor and is the one conducting your training. Even if they're not in the aircraft at the time.
Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:59 pm
by Cat Driver
"flight training" - means a training program of ground instruction and airborne training that is conducted in accordance with the flight instructor guide and flight training manual applicable to the aircraft used;
So when or if I decide to use my Cub for tail wheel training one of these days I have to teach in accordance with the flight instructor guide and flight training manual ?
Otherwise it would not be considered flight training?
Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:38 pm
by photofly
Otherwise it would not be considered flight training?
If the CARs give various rules and conditions about "
flight training" - which they do, and then contain a definition of "
flight training" - which they also do - it would be tricky to argue those conditions and rules apply to activities that fall outside their own definition of "flight training". N'est pas?
Would anyone with experience be able to confirm that the safety pilot for IFR "experience flights" - VFR, under the hood - doesn't have to have a pilot's licence? Hedley talked about his dog, but for all I know his dog has an ATPL.
Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?
Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:40 pm
by Hedley
God is not my co-pilot. .'s dog is my safety pilot.
Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?
Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:08 am
by KK7
It seems pretty obvious to me that going out and practicing on your own can in no way at all be considered as training, most notably because you don't have a qualified person there with you, as per all the CARs quoted in this thread. So why would transport or the insurance company say you were training without a qualified person, if because there is no qualified person present it cannot be considered training? You can call it a training flight to your dog or friend, but legally, it isn't. And you only need 15 hours (plus 5) of training for the instrument rating as per the CARs.
Call it what you want, but the CARs lay out VERY specifically what a training flight has to be, and how many hours of such flights you need.
Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?
Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:01 am
by FlaplessDork
Hedley wrote:
God is not my co-pilot. .'s dog is my safety pilot.
Now this I find funny.
Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?
Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:08 am
by FlaplessDork
Cat Driver wrote:"flight training" - means a training program of ground instruction and airborne training that is conducted in accordance with the flight instructor guide and flight training manual applicable to the aircraft used;
So when or if I decide to use my Cub for tail wheel training one of these days I have to teach in accordance with the flight instructor guide and flight training manual ?
Otherwise it would not be considered flight training?
It's arguable. You can argue that you created your own guide and manual that is applicable to the aircraft used. Doesn't refer to their documents specifically, in my opinion.
Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?
Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:10 am
by Cat Driver
His name was Wilbur Wrong and he even had a Vancouver issued pilot ID with his picture laminated on it.
Wilbur has been gone now for almost four years but he lives on in my memory.
One day he was wondering if I could get him a job with TCCA but I told him I couldn't justify paying for a frontal lobotomy for him so he could work there.
Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?
Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:33 am
by Big Pistons Forever
Hedley wrote:
God is not my co-pilot. .'s dog is my safety pilot.
Great picture but he is no pilot.......he isn't wearing a big ass watch with 11 dials
Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?
Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:26 pm
by CpnCrunch
Shiny Side Up wrote:From experience on how TC interprets this one, Hedley is indeed correct. The instrument "experience" portion required by the CARs doesn't mean training time. If I remember correctly, my own instrument rating was gained this way, and a multitude of others that I know. I frequently bother TC on what their interpretations are of the CARs whenever I'm feeling inquisitive or sometimes bored.
I just confirmed with TC myself, and this interpretation is correct. I had 2 instructors and an examiner tell me that I couldn't count my 3 hours of instrument time flying with a PPL safety pilot. I thought it was a bit odd, as the CARs seem pretty clear on this, but who am I to argue with an examiner and a class 1 instructor? By sheer luck I still had 41 hours, so it was just mildly irritating rather than a show-stopper.
Transport Canada wrote:To answer your question, yes the 3 hours can be counted as a part of the 40 hours providing the candidate satisfied the 5 & 15 hours of dual as stated in CARS 421.46 since CARS only requires 20 hours of dual training.
(They also say that doing the entire 20 hours by yourself with a safety pilot probably isn't a good idea).
Re: Safety Pilot - Logging Instrument Time - Who is PIC?
Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:32 pm
by BibleMonkey
Hedley wrote:...//..But Seriously, Folks, as Joe Walsh once entitled an album, which I purchased on vinyl when it was released in 1978. Sometimes I get the feeling that that vast majority of the people here are very young and very inexperienced. That may or may not be true.
However, what is true is that I have worked many years at several large multi-national corporations, and the very nasty people you will encounter there, climbing the corporate ladder and holdling positions such as Director and Vice-President, make me look like Mother Frikken Theresa, in comparison. It might behoove you to learn to deal with these very unpleasant people - with a smile - and to not let them make you cry. Or otherwise get under your skin.
The above is an important lesson to learn. The other important lesson to learn, is that you can learn a great deal from these people, even if you don't like them very much. The vast majority of people seem to think that a good teacher is a good buddy, and the better a pal he is, the better a teacher he is. What utter nonsense.
Just because you don't like someone - you might actually detest them - doesn't mean they're stupid. Believe it or not, the measure of someone's IQ is not directly proportional to how much you like them. The most important lessons you learn in life may very well be from someone you really hate. It would be a tremendous pity to pass up an opportunity to learn something valuable.
Too deep, huh?
Change your user name to " Balthasar Gracian" and come back to the forum;
"Life is warfare against the malice of others."
"Think with the few and speak with the many."
http://www.online-literature.com/gracia ... ly-wisdom/
400 years later, and you are giving the same advice again (;
//// aviation theme so post don't get yanked ....ummm Balthasar was neighbors* with the other polymath Italian guy that drew the first Bell helicopter: Davinci ////
*lies