Giving advice.
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Beefitarian
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Giving advice.
Beef, on the weekend I am going to try and finish the sate edges around my fish pond as it will soon be winter and I am running out of winters that I will be able to work on these projects eventually age will sap my strength and I will be only be able to sit and look at what I have been building for thirty years, I wish I could have finished it while My wife was here but at least I still have it.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Giving advice.
I was going to ignore the barb from Ditar, but heck I am bored.
There have always been idiots in Aviation And there always will, I think , unless they develop an idiot test, which no one is going to do as it would all but eliminate the pilot pool.
But there are some differences that have changed. In the early years the herd was culled of many idiots, or at least those who were not super lucky, through accidents. As aviaition history evolved however, the fact that the idiots were carrying passengers made the whole accident litmus test a bit obsolete. But there were accidents that even the non-idiots sufffered. Mechanical failures, and the challanges of earlier navigation, weather predicition etc. The emphasis was very much on the pilot.
Things are very different today for two reasons. First the type of accident has changed, and because of the super technology, a great many idiots can move tens of thousands of tons across continents without incident for years and years...until something happens.
A different type of accident, and as there are some innocent people who also suffer the consequences, they attract more attention.
The more common theme is the internet.. It seems we have way more idiots because before the dust settles on an incident and the crew even has time to get their stories straight, or argue who was to blame, someone has posted it on the internet. And after the obligatory, condolenses, the gossip and speculation commences...
It also means that anyone can post just about anything whether correct or not.. Rumour becomes fact. A story in the hangar overheard suddenly becomes someone you know....
Yes there were idiots like the one who decided to fly though icing to see how it handled. The difference is now they have to deal with it in public rather than with the CP giving them a slap on the back of the head and telling them to smarten up before they hurt some people or worse.
I dont think pilots have ever suffered from low self esteem or small egos, I cannot speak for anyone else, but my take is there is a deterioration of basic skills, which when they are needed are not there, and the results quite tragic. And the change in the focus away from implanting these basic skills in flight training, and into all sorts of periferial skills and knowledge. All one has to do is spend some time in the training forums to realize that few questions like "how do I teach this better" appear, and intead we see "tell me about some scenarios". About the whole concept that the FO is not a crew member but a paid trainee, and the Captain's primary job is to mentor , teach and prepare the FO for the left seat... This is much more of a new issue than in the past as a result of the increase in FO positions, particularily in planes that do not require an FO, except as a result of company ops specs.
BTW. I posted here several years ago with the observation that the basic flying skills of new pilots were missinchanging (deteriorating) and we would see more and tragic pilot caused accidents in the future if we took no action..Unfortunately, it is happening, and I keep hammering away at it in the faint hope some people will see the need for changes to occur before it becomes even worse. There has to be changes in the way we are training pilots...It is that simple..And by changes I mean getting back to the basics.
Flame away, , not-so-grass hopper (edited due to you last post)
There have always been idiots in Aviation And there always will, I think , unless they develop an idiot test, which no one is going to do as it would all but eliminate the pilot pool.
But there are some differences that have changed. In the early years the herd was culled of many idiots, or at least those who were not super lucky, through accidents. As aviaition history evolved however, the fact that the idiots were carrying passengers made the whole accident litmus test a bit obsolete. But there were accidents that even the non-idiots sufffered. Mechanical failures, and the challanges of earlier navigation, weather predicition etc. The emphasis was very much on the pilot.
Things are very different today for two reasons. First the type of accident has changed, and because of the super technology, a great many idiots can move tens of thousands of tons across continents without incident for years and years...until something happens.
A different type of accident, and as there are some innocent people who also suffer the consequences, they attract more attention.
The more common theme is the internet.. It seems we have way more idiots because before the dust settles on an incident and the crew even has time to get their stories straight, or argue who was to blame, someone has posted it on the internet. And after the obligatory, condolenses, the gossip and speculation commences...
It also means that anyone can post just about anything whether correct or not.. Rumour becomes fact. A story in the hangar overheard suddenly becomes someone you know....
Yes there were idiots like the one who decided to fly though icing to see how it handled. The difference is now they have to deal with it in public rather than with the CP giving them a slap on the back of the head and telling them to smarten up before they hurt some people or worse.
I dont think pilots have ever suffered from low self esteem or small egos, I cannot speak for anyone else, but my take is there is a deterioration of basic skills, which when they are needed are not there, and the results quite tragic. And the change in the focus away from implanting these basic skills in flight training, and into all sorts of periferial skills and knowledge. All one has to do is spend some time in the training forums to realize that few questions like "how do I teach this better" appear, and intead we see "tell me about some scenarios". About the whole concept that the FO is not a crew member but a paid trainee, and the Captain's primary job is to mentor , teach and prepare the FO for the left seat... This is much more of a new issue than in the past as a result of the increase in FO positions, particularily in planes that do not require an FO, except as a result of company ops specs.
BTW. I posted here several years ago with the observation that the basic flying skills of new pilots were missinchanging (deteriorating) and we would see more and tragic pilot caused accidents in the future if we took no action..Unfortunately, it is happening, and I keep hammering away at it in the faint hope some people will see the need for changes to occur before it becomes even worse. There has to be changes in the way we are training pilots...It is that simple..And by changes I mean getting back to the basics.
Flame away, , not-so-grass hopper (edited due to you last post)
Last edited by trey kule on Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: Giving advice.
Who? Me? I'm not that much of a grasshopper anymore. Besides, I basically agree with what you said. My only point was that I don't like sweeping generalizations, no matter who they are being applied to. They insult both the person applying them and the group to which they are being applied.trey kule wrote:I was going to ignore the barb from Ditar, but heck I am bored.
...
Flame away, grasshopper.
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Beefitarian
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Giving advice.
Beef::::::
Stories are just that stories and every generation has them.
It is true there were many captains in the past who were tyrants and refused to allow the F.O. To do anything, without exception these pilots suffered from a sense of low self worth and covered up their ineptness as pilots by being tyrants.
Fortunately the vast majority of captains were very skilled and shared the flying equally and were great mentors who we formed our habits and skills from.
By the way CRM has been around since I started in the fifties.....it just was not thrown around as the end all and be all of professional flying.
I started flying large airplanes on the Douglas and ended my career with training on Air Bus and Boeing which should give me a fair idea of how things progressed over the decades.
Stories are just that stories and every generation has them.
It is true there were many captains in the past who were tyrants and refused to allow the F.O. To do anything, without exception these pilots suffered from a sense of low self worth and covered up their ineptness as pilots by being tyrants.
Fortunately the vast majority of captains were very skilled and shared the flying equally and were great mentors who we formed our habits and skills from.
By the way CRM has been around since I started in the fifties.....it just was not thrown around as the end all and be all of professional flying.
I started flying large airplanes on the Douglas and ended my career with training on Air Bus and Boeing which should give me a fair idea of how things progressed over the decades.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Beefitarian
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Shiny Side Up
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Re:
Determining either qualification or certification is tough to do anymore, not sure if it ever was easy to begin with.Beefitarian wrote:A big problem I see in most industries requiring skilled people is "certification" trumps "qualification" as a means of selecting employees. How else can you narrow down thousands of applicants though?
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Giving advice.
Posting is like flying..... if you are mad you generally do not do a very good job at either tasktrey kule wrote:Nephlim...some of your comments dont seem to be correct, but as BPF feels this is "truning" (love that word) into instructor bashing, and as you just may be an instructor, I will leave it at that.
Re: Giving advice.
I am late to this discussion having been on the road for 2 weeks - forgive me if this has been said:
1. TC 'requires' us to practice and teach "low energy missed approaches" and they actually want us to approach at Vref - 10 or even less (!) before we do the mapp, which I think is asinine. The concept being if the approach is flown badly and you have to miss at low energy you can do same without thundering in. I think that intentionally flying the aircraft badly on an approach is stupid. I just wait until the 50-foot call and when the thrust levers hit the idle stops, I call "bear on the runway" or "Stephen Harper on the runway" and make 'em go around. Rarely will the wheels touch, but guess what? If they do, no biggy. Therefore, in my world there is no such thing as "irrevocably committed to land."
2. I was taught and continued (up until I started flying jets) to push the props to full fine on short final. I did the same on all prop-driven a/c. I have listened to the arguments for and against and I am still not convinced that there is anything wrong with my procedure. Occasionally I have needed a blast of power to go around or to recover from some low-energy-low-altitude event. I always figured too many movements when the ground (or water) might smite thee is not a good thing and I prefer to just pitch and stuff the power lever. Sorry.
Now, back to the love-fest....
1. TC 'requires' us to practice and teach "low energy missed approaches" and they actually want us to approach at Vref - 10 or even less (!) before we do the mapp, which I think is asinine. The concept being if the approach is flown badly and you have to miss at low energy you can do same without thundering in. I think that intentionally flying the aircraft badly on an approach is stupid. I just wait until the 50-foot call and when the thrust levers hit the idle stops, I call "bear on the runway" or "Stephen Harper on the runway" and make 'em go around. Rarely will the wheels touch, but guess what? If they do, no biggy. Therefore, in my world there is no such thing as "irrevocably committed to land."
2. I was taught and continued (up until I started flying jets) to push the props to full fine on short final. I did the same on all prop-driven a/c. I have listened to the arguments for and against and I am still not convinced that there is anything wrong with my procedure. Occasionally I have needed a blast of power to go around or to recover from some low-energy-low-altitude event. I always figured too many movements when the ground (or water) might smite thee is not a good thing and I prefer to just pitch and stuff the power lever. Sorry.
Now, back to the love-fest....
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Re: Giving advice.
I have been flying twins for a while both piston and turbine and can't think of any reason why you would leave the prop levers back on final once the governors are no longer governing. There is no good reason to leave them set for climb or cruise after this point. Push them forward and be ready in case of a missed approach.
I also think anyone who is on final and is not thinking that overshooting is an option at any point is making a big mistake. The accident books are full of scenarios where an approach or landing falls apart and the aircraft ends up crashing because the pilot gets so focused on salvaging a bad situation they forget the easiest part of all, just add the power and go around!!
I also think anyone who is on final and is not thinking that overshooting is an option at any point is making a big mistake. The accident books are full of scenarios where an approach or landing falls apart and the aircraft ends up crashing because the pilot gets so focused on salvaging a bad situation they forget the easiest part of all, just add the power and go around!!
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Giving advice.
And therein is the answer, put them forward as the power is reduced to land.I have been flying twins for a while both piston and turbine and can't think of any reason why you would leave the prop levers back on final once the governors are no longer governing.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Giving advice.
That is essentially what I do. If there is no reaction from the propellers to putting the levers to the stops, then I have done it correctly.
I learned constant speed on a float plane and for student purposes I highly recommend either doing that or a complex single before transitioning to a twin as makes the transition far more simple (relationship, simple to complex).
But unfortunately each had me using the GUMP check (gear being the case 'o beer water rudders for the float plane) and as a result having the props screaming in the downwind and usually requiring power application to maintain altitude or arrest the stone-like descent rate.
At the time, I was an AME apprentice on jets and never thought about gear loads, counterweights, passenger discomfort, and noise.
But after reading this board and realizing that I also do a final check (mixtures, props, gear) that the final check was a much better place to put it.
Unfortunately this thread has degenerated from its original purpose which was supposed to be on how you give and take advice. The reactions of some on here certainly lead me to believe that much advice isn't welcome and I wonder how many pilots have taken off to their doom or continue to punish equipment based on reluctance to listen or reluctance to give advice.
I learned constant speed on a float plane and for student purposes I highly recommend either doing that or a complex single before transitioning to a twin as makes the transition far more simple (relationship, simple to complex).
But unfortunately each had me using the GUMP check (gear being the case 'o beer water rudders for the float plane) and as a result having the props screaming in the downwind and usually requiring power application to maintain altitude or arrest the stone-like descent rate.
At the time, I was an AME apprentice on jets and never thought about gear loads, counterweights, passenger discomfort, and noise.
But after reading this board and realizing that I also do a final check (mixtures, props, gear) that the final check was a much better place to put it.
Unfortunately this thread has degenerated from its original purpose which was supposed to be on how you give and take advice. The reactions of some on here certainly lead me to believe that much advice isn't welcome and I wonder how many pilots have taken off to their doom or continue to punish equipment based on reluctance to listen or reluctance to give advice.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: Giving advice.
Almost without fail if a subject being discussed is in relation to how to fly an airplane or what procedures you use it degenerates into chaos especially if someone suggests using a procedure that is not being taught in the training part of the industry.
You and I understand the stupidity of beating the shit out of your machine and annoying the hell out of passengers and the pubic on the ground when you increase propellor RPM before it is needed.
That is partly because we both are mechanics first and pilots second Ifly.
When I owned a flight school I couldn't believe how many instructors taught selecting full fine before the airplane ever started the descent.
I never give up though because I get lots of PM's and e-mails thanking me for explaining how I do things and why I do things.
The thread about instrument approaches using the radio range brings back many memories of that era.
You and I understand the stupidity of beating the shit out of your machine and annoying the hell out of passengers and the pubic on the ground when you increase propellor RPM before it is needed.
That is partly because we both are mechanics first and pilots second Ifly.
When I owned a flight school I couldn't believe how many instructors taught selecting full fine before the airplane ever started the descent.
I never give up though because I get lots of PM's and e-mails thanking me for explaining how I do things and why I do things.
The thread about instrument approaches using the radio range brings back many memories of that era.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Posthumane
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Re: Giving advice.
I'm a bit late to this thread, but I'll try to chime in on IFP's original topic of giving advice.
First off, I've learned a lot from these boards, and have tried to implement much of the advice given by people like Cat, Hedley, IFP, Sky's the limit, BPF, SSU, and other experienced regulars. I consider these boards to be the 21st century equivalent of a bunch of guys sitting around the hangar or airport coffee shop discussing procedures, since a lot of people don't have time/inclination to actually do that much anymore.
Does that mean I accept everyone's advice all the time? Of course not, since there are many competing opinions. One pilot may tell you one thing, and another something completely different, so you have to make up your own mind as to what level of risk you are willing to accept. I've had people tell me that I shouldn't fly in more than 5 or 10 knots crosswind, and others say that anything you can handle is good to go. I've also had people tell me not to mess with potential icing conditions, and others say go ahead and go, and if you start accumulating ice (in a 172) then just land. If I always stuck to the more conservative or more cavalier attitude I would either be afraid to push myself or just be reckless, so I try to read opinions from experienced pilots and decide what's the best way to go (usually reverting to whatever Cat said is usually a good way to go).
On the subject of giving advice, I usually do not as I am not very experienced myself. There have been times when I did though, such as when I found my father (who had just gotten his PPL) doing something I thought was stupid in my airplane. I only have a little more experience than him, but I've owned and flew the plane for a couple of years now so in that case I felt confident that I was right (he was shutting down one mag at a time at idle before pulling the mixture for some reason, resulting in fouled plugs all the time). It didn't seem he was offended by my advice, but other times when I've tried to pass on things that I learned which I thought were helpful he politely nodded his head and promptly ignored them.
First off, I've learned a lot from these boards, and have tried to implement much of the advice given by people like Cat, Hedley, IFP, Sky's the limit, BPF, SSU, and other experienced regulars. I consider these boards to be the 21st century equivalent of a bunch of guys sitting around the hangar or airport coffee shop discussing procedures, since a lot of people don't have time/inclination to actually do that much anymore.
Does that mean I accept everyone's advice all the time? Of course not, since there are many competing opinions. One pilot may tell you one thing, and another something completely different, so you have to make up your own mind as to what level of risk you are willing to accept. I've had people tell me that I shouldn't fly in more than 5 or 10 knots crosswind, and others say that anything you can handle is good to go. I've also had people tell me not to mess with potential icing conditions, and others say go ahead and go, and if you start accumulating ice (in a 172) then just land. If I always stuck to the more conservative or more cavalier attitude I would either be afraid to push myself or just be reckless, so I try to read opinions from experienced pilots and decide what's the best way to go (usually reverting to whatever Cat said is usually a good way to go).
On the subject of giving advice, I usually do not as I am not very experienced myself. There have been times when I did though, such as when I found my father (who had just gotten his PPL) doing something I thought was stupid in my airplane. I only have a little more experience than him, but I've owned and flew the plane for a couple of years now so in that case I felt confident that I was right (he was shutting down one mag at a time at idle before pulling the mixture for some reason, resulting in fouled plugs all the time). It didn't seem he was offended by my advice, but other times when I've tried to pass on things that I learned which I thought were helpful he politely nodded his head and promptly ignored them.
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it." -George Bernard Shaw
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Nearandfar
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Re: Giving advice.
Short final is my choice for "Props Ahead". No noisy pitch changes because the power is already coming back, and its nice to have the props ahead because I need them for reverse. So even I'm not a "monkey", and I could very well be, and I can figure out Props Full Fine for a go-around, I tend to not like to take my hands off the power levers to reset props when a simple twist of the power levers will get me into reverse. In the good old days GUMP checks were Gas, Undercarriage, Mixture, Props. Its always worked for me.
If you're young and impressionable, please don't let anyone talk you into not having the props selected full fine when you're on short final. We used to call it "staying ahead of the airplane".
If you're young and impressionable, please don't let anyone talk you into not having the props selected full fine when you're on short final. We used to call it "staying ahead of the airplane".
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lilflyboy262
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Re: Giving advice.
200' AGL were my finals checks, Cowl Flaps, Carb Heat, Undercarriage and Pitch. A nice set of C-Cups.
Once the power and speed is back, putting the pitch into full fine makes no changes to noise... so why not do it? Its one less thing to do in the event of a go-around as you already have enough to think about.
My CFI used to beer fine me if he heard the props change while I was on finals
Quick way of learning 
Once the power and speed is back, putting the pitch into full fine makes no changes to noise... so why not do it? Its one less thing to do in the event of a go-around as you already have enough to think about.
My CFI used to beer fine me if he heard the props change while I was on finals
Quick way of learning 
