Col Muammar Gaddafi captured - BREAKING NEWS

[Frank Uckër]

I find it helpful to try to distinguish the objective from the subjective.

For example, objectively 2+2=4, and someone might (correctly) think I'm not very bright, if I don't think that's true.

However, subjectively I could state that "blue is a better colour than red", and if you don't agree with my opinion, if I hold it strongly, I might call you insulting names for not having the brains to agree with me, on my preference of colours.

The former (objective - arithmetic) is reasonable. The latter (subjective - opinion) is laughable.

It's very important to drive a wedge inbetween the objective, and the subjective. Don't blur them, don't treat them the same, and try to be a little bit more tolerant of other people's opinions on subjective matters. People are allowed to have different opinions than you, and just because they don't agree with you doesn't make them stupid, or evil.

You must admit the irony when someone left-wing isn't very liberal with respect to someone else being able to hold a different opinion than they do!

[Mig29]

Try to be civil guys, I know it's really difficult but we are all adults (I hope?) so let's behave like one. I can see two definitive streams here on this issue, which by the way is totally not concerning Gaddafi anymore, but something more important and deeper in our society.

There is a majority here (at least the way I read it) that is against STL's idea and concern that we, the West have went too far in our dominance in this world, and become police officers on how to live, behave, think and even in what to believe in! And the West unfortunately includes us here in Canada too. What's worse, some of us like Frosti is totally aware of these facts but chooses to accept it and not worry about it too much, as it will "make us only die younger". Your words Frosti, not mine....That's a problem, a big one! Case in example, that little toddler in China that got ran over twice while 18 people walked by is a sad reality of what has become of us humans. By all means Frosti, don't take this personal as I know you wouldn't be one of those 18 but that other person that stopped, picked her up and called for help! Today it's just a toddler, tomorrow a small town geting wiped off the earth (as collateral) and a year from now we toss in a nuke somewhere in MEA or N.Korea because we just got tired of sending troops and "stretching our resources" as someone pointed out here, and slowly we become conditioned to living in a big lie that this was all done for the greater good of us all and because we HAD to do something otherwise as Mcrit said,

As soon as you give someone an inch, they will take a mile

I find that to be true at times, but in our case NATO and USA have together more power than 3/4 of this planet and I find it hard to believe that Libya (laying in 75% of dust and poverty) is a nation that could cause harm outside of it's borders! We sanctioned that nations for decades because of "mad dog Gaddafi", impoverished their nation and people, but then got all sweet and friendly with the same guy in the late 90s because we need his Oil! When he started not to play on our terms and our thirst for black gold got bigger we decided to take him out. Sure he's not the best person to run the country but we created him just like we created Saddam and many other puppets of the West and when the time comes to chop the wood, we just go in there and blow the sh** of everyone and everything but sadly never get to the source of the 'problem' (for the lack of a better word) until the end. Meaning, we wage a overwhelming war on the country (and collaterally it's people) for months or years, only to finally dig our 'dogs' we put in the first place from some rotten sewer pipe line when there's nothing else to blow up. We bashed Iraq right after 9/11 because he had weapons of mass destruction, but then it turns out to be false 'intelligence'. (Rightttt....maybe my 5 year old cousin will buy that story, if I give him free candy with that maybe ) If that is so true, then why is US pulling out only now, 10 years later, if it was false intelligence AND they already killed him 5 years ago???? So we can teach these people democracy while we suck every drop of their oil for free!!? Or is it something else that you guys now?

No we go after Afghanistan and we declare war on terror....but we can't find one guy "responsible" for it, until again, a decade later "hiding" in neighboring country which is apparently US' ally so they only receive few harsh words and little ear pulling, for the media sakes But we destroy the entire country and kill thousands of civilians in the mean time....TEN years later they take him out!!! When US needs to take care of people they don't want around anymore, they can do it much quicker... just look back at their 35th president. Not gonna go there now...

Then we go in Libya, to save the world again because after all, you don't know if Gaddafi is going to harm US from 6,000km away by throwing his shoe at us or by sending a fishing boat full of firecrackers towards NYC. Actually US was not the dominant force this time, but more like Europeans, specifically Italians and French! Yes, sleazy Italians, French and Germans went in there full force because they depended more on Gaddafi's oil then US it self!! They were pushing for the UN mandate to intervene there because of safety for Libyan people and we Canadian got suckered into to it again! You don't believe me....take a look at the Libyan oil exports map below.

When you run the numbers, and think it through, there are just some people whose existence is incompatible with western culture's continued existence.

Very true Mcrit.....and that's why I don't want to be on this side of the fence, eating horse s**t as they feed me on daily news and in other media outlets. I don't want to have bloods on my hands and soul, and for that matter on my kids hands tomorrow when those countries now full of hatred for us, well know peaceful "blue helmets" of Canada decide to strike back with car bombs in front of our schools. We have a chance to BE better and NOT be drowned in the dirty and immoral seas like some of our 'ally' countries. Instead we sadly accept the reality and for the sake of a better 'sleeping' (what a contradiction) are choosing not to! What's worse our elected politicians are drawing decisions for us!! As if I can use my own vote and brain to choose what's right or what's wrong! What a democracy we live in....

You think it would be better if we all just put aside our differences, shared our stuff, and got along. You figure we in the west should lead by example and do this unilateraly. I will concede that that sounds like a nice plan. The only flaw is human nature.

Yes, I do think that would be the best choice. And yes I agree, it is a human flaw....but a flaw we can correct and change over time, with hopes that our children can have a better tomorrow. Problems is, many of us are to lazy or content or overwhelmed with daily worries of life (debt, bills, food on table, which iPhone or SUV to buy, tough choice of a downtown condo or suburban house with pool) that we forget what's important. We start caring less and less, and understandably being so distant from some of these places where conflicts exist becomes harder to do so....But not impossible, and I choose to stand on STL's side for this because I will rather fight trying to make thing better in life and actually sleep better at night then just put my hands up and accept the dirty reality we have all created together!

Good day everyone!

[sky's the limit]

I find it helpful to try to distinguish the objective from the subjective.

For example, objectively 2+2=4, and someone might (correctly) think I'm not very bright, if I don't think that's true.

However, subjectively I could state that "blue is a better colour than red", and if you don't agree with my opinion, if I hold it strongly, I might call you insulting names for not having the brains to agree with me, on my preference of colours.

The former (objective - arithmetic) is reasonable. The latter (subjective - opinion) is laughable.

It's very important to drive a wedge inbetween the objective, and the subjective. Don't blur them, don't treat them the same, and try to be a little bit more tolerant of other people's opinions on subjective matters. People are allowed to have different opinions than you, and just because they don't agree with you doesn't make them stupid, or evil.

You must admit the irony when someone left-wing isn't very liberal with respect to someone else being able to hold a different opinion than they do!

Frank,

You should read my wife's PhD dissertation, it's mostly dealing with this completely flawed idea of "objectivity" when dealing with social, political, or human issues.... It is precisely the lack of subjectivity through personal experience that is the problem in our society, and why we continue to use and abuse unfettered - at least for the moment. "Objectivity" is little more than a word used in justification, nothing more.

As to your last, please refer to my earlier post on "opinions." When the opinion holder has no idea what he or she is talking about, there is very little reason to consider it. When there is a well constructed and valid viewpoint that is presented, it's all about taking it under consideration. What our narrow friend has difficulty understanding, and what you seem to be missing, is that my opinions (which seem to sit so heavily for him), ARE formed by listening to perspectives that are completely different from my own - like those of the people in countries all over the planet who have totally different belief and value systems and who have something to say.

Unfortunately you and Mcrit seem unable to understand that fact, yet try to portray me as "close-minded," or unwilling to listen to other people's (read, his) opinions - no matter how woefully uninformed they are.

Anyway, I have just shown a collection of posts from our beloved Water Closet to a group of friends who are actually involved in policy decisions in this country, and the initial laughter was unfortunately replaced by worry that they might be representative of a large cross-section of our society.

So please, if you have something to input, bring it forward, I am interested to read it - but the lecture on the fallacious idea of objectivity in these matters is misplaced.

stl

[Rockie]

What I find interesting and all too common is when some people are confronted with a coherent argument that doesn't agree their own they assume the other person is trying to suppress, or "limit" their own. If you don't like STL's point of view...tough. Don't read it.

[Dash-Ate]

Don't kids yourselves - he is one of ours. Trained and placed into power for all these years.

Trained with the royals, same school possibly. At the least was invided to Britian for training.

And can anyone answer why US after invading IRAQ in 1991 left Saddam in power? WTF?? Why leave a dictator in power after taking the time to destroy his army and country.

Spend billions on an invasion only to walk away and leave him in power?? OF COURSE he served a purpose. When his time was up they offed him. "We know he has WMD".

Same with this guy. the lies we are told on the 6pm tee-vee newz are staggering. War propraganda. Tiny close up shots of guys with weapons. We are told they are ____ ? Good guys or bad guys. As long as they have brown skin we'll believe it. Whatever our teevee says is the 100% truth we are told.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Col_Muammar_Gaddafi

Gaddafi entered the Libyan military academy at Benghazi in 1961, and graduated in 1966. Both towards the end of his course and after graduation, Gaddafi pursued further studies in Europe. False rumours have been propagated with regards to this part of his life, for example, that he attended the United Kingdom's Royal Military Academy Sandhurst.[27] He did in fact receive four months' further military training in the United Kingdom, and spent some time in London.[28]



Say...why doesnt USA "liberate" CUBA after all these years. It would be so easy and so close. Aint gonna happen! Castro serves his purpose for controlling us. SCaring us. A Tiny island close to USA. And USA runs a torture base there, paying rent to this brutal dictator. Why support a commie like him for all these years? Because he serves a purpose. We aint free, let me tell you...

[Dash-Ate]

Speaking of bodies...where is this guy's body? A "traditional arab burial"...at sea??? WTF?? When they should have stuck his head on a stick for us to see??


Dead men tell no tales. No body = no crime.

So I guess the 2001 UK newspaper reports that bin laden died of kidney failure were a big lie. And this recent news is the truth. Or maybe it's the other way around. Hey I heard it on tee-vee it must be true!!! Trust the war criminals running the show.
they are playing us like fools as they conquer the middle east one country at a time.


----U.S. Navy Discharging 49 Sailors from Aircraft Carrier that ‘Buried Osama Bin Laden at Sea” for Using or Distributing Drugs



Reuters
October 22, 2011

The U.S. Navy said on Thursday it was discharging 64 sailors, 49 of them from the aircraft carrier that buried Osama bin Laden at sea, for using or distributing drugs.



Most of the sailors, who were assigned to the aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson, nuclear submarine USS San Francisco and a floating fueling dock, were caught using , possessing or selling the designer drug Spice, the Navy said.

Bin Laden was buried at sea from the Carl Vinson in May after the al Qaeda leader was killed in a raid by U.S. Navy Seals on his Pakistan hide-out.

The ship normally has 5,000 sailors on board during deployment and a spokesman for the Third Fleet, Capt. Greg Hicks, said it was unknown if any of the sailors facing discipline were involved in the bin Laden operation.

Full article here

[Dash-Ate]

did your teevee tell you think? Oil's well that ends well.


Another oil invasion. Do you have a date with the devil?

BP set to begin oil drilling off Libya

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-10751128

The Gulf of Mexico spill has raised serious safety concerns for BP Continue reading the main story


Oil giant BP has confirmed it will begin drilling off the Libyan coast in the next few weeks.

The deepwater drilling will take place in the Gulf of Sirte following a deal signed in 2007 with Libya on oil and gas development.

The news comes amid major concerns over BP's environmental and safety record following the Gulf of Mexico spill.

[Frank Uckër]

So after 3 rambling solo posts, are you trying to assert that Gkhadddavffhphiy isn't really dead?

[Mig29]

So after 3 rambling solo posts, are you trying to assert that Gkhadddavffhphiy isn't really dead?

Seriously, is that the BEST you can come up with!?

He just posted three things that you should be able to use to connect the dots and realize what this war is all about? Wow, I'm really not shocked that BP is reacting that fast! Who's next, Shell and that french "Total"...?? They must have the drilling shipps lined up right behind the battle ships off the coast of Lybia. I forgot to mention it was the French Air Force that took out that convoy that Gaddafi was trying to flee his home town the other day.... Maybe a coincidence, but those Euros were damn sure they take him out, as after all it's THEIR oil up for grabs this time. US has plenty of it from Iraq...

And what happened to killing a POW? Guy was still alive when they dragged him from those pipes....then they report a bullet hole in his temple?? Is that the pro-democracy government we are supporting over there?

[cdnpilot77]

So after 3 rambling solo posts, are you trying to assert that Gkhadddavffhphiy isn't really dead?

Seriously, is that the BEST you can come up with!?

He just posted three things that you should be able to use to connect the dots and realize what this war is all about? Wow, I'm really not shocked that BP is reacting that fast! Who's next, Shell and that french "Total"...?? They must have the drilling shipps lined up right behind the battle ships off the coast of Lybia.

The BP article is dated July 24, 2010....aside from the fact that yes we require oil for the world to function and yes Libya has some, this article is irrelevant to the current highlights of the country

[Dash-Ate]

He will be missed by his Western business partners.

WAR is a business never forget. It must be sold to us. "He's killing his own people!! We knowhe has WMD.

We ain't a charity. Libya now under western control, they appointed a "transition commmitte" to look after western business interests.

Canada bombed key points to bring libya to its knees. "We don't do body counts". We're the good guys right?

Don't worry you will have yours date with the devil.


look at those smiles. It's all a game you see.

[Mig29]

The BP article is dated July 24, 2010....aside from the fact that yes we require oil for the world to function and yes Libya has some, this article is irrelevant to the current highlights of the country

You may be correct, I apologize for my hasty read, as I missed the actual date. However I'm still pretty sure BP is glad that they are going to be drilling a massive oil reserve of the coast of Benghazi without many 'legal concerns or constrains' now that Libyan ruler is gone.


The Oil Rush is Back on in Libya

By Kate Sheppard
Mon Aug. 22, 2011 9:53 AM PDT

"Too soon? While rebel forces have captured most of Tripoli, loyalists to Muammar Qaddafi are still holding onto outposts in the city and the dictator has not yet ceded power. But BP and other oil companies are already gunning to get back in.

The Wall Street Journal reported Monday morning that although BP doesn't have any firm date yet on when it will resume work on its exploration program in Libya's Gulf of Sidra, the company is committed to returning to the country.

The U.K. oil major had begun work on a $900 million exploration program in the North African country when it halted operations in February following the uprising against Col. Gadhafi and the subsequent outbreak of civil war.

BP said it hasn't yet entered into any commercial transactions with the Transitional National Council.

Because its exploration project was still in its early stages of development, the company didn't have much infrastructure in the country when war broke out. However, a rig in the desert near Ghadames was made as "safe and secure and possible," although this will still have to be accounted for.

Libya is home to the largest oil reserves in Africa, hence the rush to develop it. As Reuters reported Monday night, the Italian oil company Eni SpA has already sent staff into the country to evaluate the oil facilities. The Dutch company Shell, the French company SA, and Qatar's national oil company are also eager to get in.

But BP in particular has a questionable past when it comes to Libya. Last year, amid the Gulf of Mexico oil spill disaster, the company was accused of having negotiated the release of the terrorist convicted of bombing Pan Am Flight 103 in exchange for access to Libya's vast oil reserves. A Scottish court released Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset al-Megrahi in August 2009 based on testimony from doctors that he was terminally ill with prostate cancer and had only three months to live. He's still alive, and one of the doctors has since come forward to claim that the Libyan government bribed him. Four Senate Democrats asked the Foreign Relations Committee to look into it, and the committee later concluded that Megrahi's release was unjustified. The committee report noted that both the Scottish and British governments "refused to respond to questions," and that the committee believes the UK government played a "direct, critical role" in Megrahi's release."

BP and other governments apparently weren't too worried about colluding with a despotic government to free a convicted terrorist in the interest of accessing oil reserves a few years ago. So we should probably be concerned about what they've got planned in Libya at a point when the situation is still so uncertain."


Just to point out that even though Libya only contributes to 2% of oil production (which is not that far off from Canada's 3.9%!) has one of the TOP oil RESERVES in the world, amongst a handful of other countries.

800px-Top_ten_largest_oil_reserves_by_country.GIF (87.76 KiB) Viewed 1291 times

BP's contracts in Libya 'still valid' despite turmoil (23 October, 2011)

"At the moment we just have to wait and see," a BP spokesman said. "We're monitoring the situation. We have a contract with NOC and as far as we know it is still in place."

BP has no production in Libya at the moment, but the company has started an exploratory drilling programme in the west of the North African nation. This work was suspended following the uprising against Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan leader, last month.

Similarly, Royal Dutch Shell has an exploration programme in the country, started after sanctions were lifted in 2004.

On Wednesday last week, Shokri Ghanem, chairman of NOC , said the Libyan government would honour existing contracts with Western oil companies. "We have our contracts with them. We will honour our commitments and I'm sure that they will honour their commitments," he said. However, this contradicted comments by Col Gaddafi, who has said that he would shun Western oil groups, replacing them with companies from Russia, India and China.

The International Energy Agency (IEA) said last week that Libya's oil output had slumped to a "trickle" and this had helped to drive up the price of Brent crude by 20pc this year. The IEA also said exports from Libya, which are light, "sweet" oils favoured by refiners, may take "many months" to return to normal.
Related Articles

Bob Dudley, BP's chief executive, said yesterday that the company hoped to continue its exploration work in Libya when stability returns. Mr Dudley is at present in Cairo for meetings with Egyptian government representatives.

BP is the largest foreign investor in Egypt, having been in the country for more than 40 years. During this period it has been responsible for more than half of the country's oil production."

I really wonder who is Libyan NOC really working for?? Their own country or the Western oil companies???

[azimuthaviation]

So I guess this makes Harper a Jihadist?

The transitional government leader Mustafa Abdul-Jalil set out a vision for the post-Gadhafi future with an Islamist tint, saying that Islamic Sharia law would be the "basic source" of legislation in the country and that existing laws that contradict the teachings of Islam would be nullified. In a gesture that showed his own piety, he urged Libyans not to express their joy by firing in the air, but rather to chant "Allahu Akbar," or God is Great. He then stepped aside and knelt to offer a brief prayer.

Abdul-Jalil said new banks would be set up to follow the Islamic banking system, which bans charging interest. For the time being, he said interest would be canceled from any personal loans already taken out less than 10,000 Libyan dinars (about $7,500).

[JakeYYZ]

Remember when we got bin Laden how we had to be very careful to bury him according to Islamic traditions and to not offend anyone. Meanwhile when they get Gaddafi they beat him, shoot him, parade his body around and drag him through the streets ... then store him in a meat locker display case ...all according to Islamic tradition I suppose.
These are Savages. The standards our military is held at, and look at what Harper’s posse is up to. What, no special ROE for them? Real proud moment for Canadians that we were allied with these noble Islamic warriors.
Tactical nukes just became my favorite personal weapon of engagement.
As Rockie might say; take a picture Azi.

[azimuthaviation]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_x30I0_ibE&NR=1

The honour and standards that the Iraqi Mujahideen fought to, in the words of their American enemies. From 2:35, if you think any NATO or American soldier would not take this as an opportunity, you are out of your minds.

[frosti]

Meanwhile when they get Gaddafi they beat him, shoot him, parade his body around and drag him through the streets ... then store him in a meat locker display case ...all according to Islamic tradition I suppose.

Who cares. He got what was deserved, as did Mussolini. Too bad Hitler didn't get the same fate. I guess it would be better to keep him alive, send him to court, feed him, provide him shelter and all that good stuff that costs money. This is easier, cheaper and quicker - a bullet in the head and its done. Finished with that one. The real question remains to be seen, can the new Libyan government hold itself together without going into an internal power struggle and war. With religion so closely tied in governments in that region I don't see anything good coming out of Libya any time soon. As in all things with the Middle-east and Africa - Who Cares.

[Mig29]

Frosti, OPEN YOUR EYES MY FRIEND!!

Turn off your mainstream media and look beyond your daily morning news......man, I really feel sorry for some of you, because you are so brainwashed that you don't even see it. You think that this only happens in movies, and won't accept that it's happening right in front of your eyes.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hDejIHc ... re=related

AuxBatOn......No civilian casualties, right? Again, things look different from 25,000' then on the ground...

What is it that Gaddafi deserves more then say some of our western rulers???

Here's another link for you....maybe you should remove the tin foil from your head and then I will go fly a kite

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw5Ij_RF ... re=related

[Mig29]

And the last one from me tonight....anyone heard of Gold Dinar???????

I'm really getting tired of explaining you people the real reasons behind all this...but I truly hope you will take at least 10% of this home and think about it. Even if I am wrong, at least consider it....

Good night....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuqZfaj3 ... detailpage

ps. how do you embed videos here...I'm not that tech advanced

[frosti]

Russia Today?





You made my week.

[reality check]

Russia Today?





You made my week.

Your point is? For a thread full of people talking about being open minded, epic fail as the kids say these days.

[bmc]

Russia Today?





You made my week.

[frosti]

Any more comments from the peanut gallery?

[Beefitarian]

Seriously, isn't everyone bothered by these pictures? He's a known bad guy for decades. No one does much about it. Suddenly he's just offed.
In some ways I think it's the way it should have happened but something seems way out of place about it.

He will be missed by his Western business partners.

WAR is a business never forget. It must be sold to us. "He's killing his own people!! We knowhe has WMD.

We ain't a charity. Libya now under western control, they appointed a "transition commmitte" to look after western business interests.

Canada bombed key points to bring libya to its knees. "We don't do body counts". We're the good guys right?

Don't worry you will have yours date with the devil.


look at those smiles. It's all a game you see.

[AuxBatOn]

AuxBatOn......No civilian casualties, right?

Where did I say there were no civilian casualties? When you decide you are going to drop weapons on a country's military, there will be collateral damage. This is a fact of life. In this day and age, there are multiple ways to mitigate the risks and this is exactly what was done. There are multiple levels of risk levels associated with each target and the decision to prosecute it can be delegated up or down the chain of command, depending on the associated risk. It's not a simple process and it's far more than someone, some day waking up and saying "I want to erase off the face of the earth this building, just cause I feel like it" or a pilot in his jet saying, "well, this guy looks up to no good, let's drop one and see." There is a process to follow (and a LOT, I mean a LOT of people are involved) and it is closely followed by legal aids all the way through.

Again, things look different from 25,000' then on the ground...

The news channels often provide feedback from the ground thank you.

[straightpilot]

isn't everyone bothered by these pictures?

Not quite sure I get your point.

Saddam Hussein was given the "keys to the city" by Detroit in 1980, and we know how that turned out.

Manuel Noriega was George H Bush's CIA pal, and the US invaded Panama in 1989 and took him prisoner.

The world is not always a Fischer-Price play structure, with rounded corners. "Dictator for life" means pretty much what it says.



I doubt anyone here cares to remember, but 20,000 Nazi supporters used to have rallies in Madison Square Gardens back in 1939:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Ame ... und#Zenith

JFK's father recommended that the USA join WWII on Germany's side. Is anyone here bothered by that?