GEE YA THINK??? I've only been pounding THAT drum for YEARS! You're preaching to the choir. The number ONE reason a "college" will never fly! Too many piss-ants who lack the balls to say NO!!! Too many companies sucking stupid pilots dry!teacher wrote:"Doc" I understand the way you think and why that is but let me ask you a simple question. If every pilot in this country said "NO" to the shitty wages and working conditions, "NO" to bonds and "NO" to taking it up the "you know what" and this industry and all the operators out there faced bankruptcy unless things changed they would.
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College of Pilots
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
Re: College of Pilots
Re: College of Pilots
Couldn't agree more! I sure don't want any group of self appointed "holier than thou" group telling me what I can and can't do.snoopy wrote: >The only people I want in charge of my internationally recognized (ICAO) Canadian licenses, or any aspect of issuing, renewing, endorsing and/or revoking them; is the Canadian Federal Government.
Re: College of Pilots
Tom, from your various posts, the following troubling statements:
...we could end up with a situation where all Professional Pilots in Canada would need to be a member prior to exercising their privileges....
A fully implemented College would have a peer-based disciplinary review board (DRB). If scenarios that you propose do exist, the pilot in question would be called before the DRB to defend their actions and depending on the situation, could lose the privileges of their license....
if there are pilots that are "misbehaving" as per the code of conduct that the College outlines, then they would run the risk of losing their privileges. How that would work and what that would look like and how it would mesh with the current environment is the building that we need to do....
And there many lesser details about which decisions have already been made, that will come to light over time.
It is this kind of Trudeau-esque, central command and control, type of thinking by people working in isolation from the members that ends up in an organization serving only the executive well. One might suggest that before any closed-door discussion is had about limiting or revoking a person's right to work, some other procedural and structural details might be settled upon, and then ratified by a membership far greater than your suggested one-third of the affected pilots. And this "we'll only do this little bit now, but have the right to take your licence and other stuff away, once we cannot be removed" tactic is exactly the sort of thing that Doc is talking about. One Transport Canada in my life is quite enough, thank you.
And I did the math. For a reasonable budget of any kind, including paying the 10 executive members the six-figure salaries plus expenses they will no doubt require, the annual tax on each pilot would be north of $500 dollars per year, and that's if each and every one of the 23,000 signs up.
As the college is currently presented, the cost-benefit balance is not attractive enough, and the details are too sparse.
...we could end up with a situation where all Professional Pilots in Canada would need to be a member prior to exercising their privileges....
A fully implemented College would have a peer-based disciplinary review board (DRB). If scenarios that you propose do exist, the pilot in question would be called before the DRB to defend their actions and depending on the situation, could lose the privileges of their license....
if there are pilots that are "misbehaving" as per the code of conduct that the College outlines, then they would run the risk of losing their privileges. How that would work and what that would look like and how it would mesh with the current environment is the building that we need to do....
And there many lesser details about which decisions have already been made, that will come to light over time.
It is this kind of Trudeau-esque, central command and control, type of thinking by people working in isolation from the members that ends up in an organization serving only the executive well. One might suggest that before any closed-door discussion is had about limiting or revoking a person's right to work, some other procedural and structural details might be settled upon, and then ratified by a membership far greater than your suggested one-third of the affected pilots. And this "we'll only do this little bit now, but have the right to take your licence and other stuff away, once we cannot be removed" tactic is exactly the sort of thing that Doc is talking about. One Transport Canada in my life is quite enough, thank you.
And I did the math. For a reasonable budget of any kind, including paying the 10 executive members the six-figure salaries plus expenses they will no doubt require, the annual tax on each pilot would be north of $500 dollars per year, and that's if each and every one of the 23,000 signs up.
As the college is currently presented, the cost-benefit balance is not attractive enough, and the details are too sparse.
Re: College of Pilots
Are you for REAL? I'm sorry but keep on DREAMING! "Misbehaving....." "the code of conduct that the college outlines....." Is PISS OFF to strong for you? Let me guess....spankings all around? WOW! And folks think I ride around on a high horse? The ten of you are trying to rally 23000? Best of luck.TomM wrote: Again, in a world where the fully implemented College exists, if there are pilots that are "misbehaving" as per the code of conduct that the College outlines, then they would run the risk of losing their privileges. How that would work and what that would look like and how it would mesh with the current environment is the building that we need to do.
I hate to come across as rude (which I just did, didn't I?) but you are looking at the world through rose coloured glasses.
Re: College of Pilots
Doc, with respect, you are the one the is coming across on a high horse. The "Silent" majority seems to want some sort of group to be a part of with the goal of making aviation better. You come on and chastise people for doing various things - VFR in IMC, flying overweight etc. do you agree that these folks should go unpunished? I know TC is not going to sit there in Kenora or where ever and wait for infractions - they have given that up.
How about the guy that feels pressured into flying a broken airplane, or right down snags on a Microsoft Word document so they don't ground their King Air. This guy may be "spineless" or what ever else you want to call him but the fact of the matter is: there are people in this industry who will be submissive to their boss and fly the broken airplane, or fly VFR to avoid the "hassle" of IFR when it clearly is IMC, or both. If there is a group that is there to back these guys up, stand up for them and direct them to where they need to go (who to talk to etc.) then would we not all benefit?
If this group could liaison with TC perhaps; you won't have to listen to someone bragging about "flying in ice" to see what it's all about, you won't have to play chicken with Caravans in IMC going into Red Lake or any other issue you have.
I ask, why not give it a chance? The status quo has been as useful as a one armed trapeze artist with an itchy ass. You are opinionated we get that. How about work with these guys and act like a grown up and perhaps participate in change instead of sitting on the sideline pissing in everyone's water. If this does come to fruition and you can help shape it to closer to what you want perhaps you may be satisfied?
My 2 cents.
How about the guy that feels pressured into flying a broken airplane, or right down snags on a Microsoft Word document so they don't ground their King Air. This guy may be "spineless" or what ever else you want to call him but the fact of the matter is: there are people in this industry who will be submissive to their boss and fly the broken airplane, or fly VFR to avoid the "hassle" of IFR when it clearly is IMC, or both. If there is a group that is there to back these guys up, stand up for them and direct them to where they need to go (who to talk to etc.) then would we not all benefit?
If this group could liaison with TC perhaps; you won't have to listen to someone bragging about "flying in ice" to see what it's all about, you won't have to play chicken with Caravans in IMC going into Red Lake or any other issue you have.
I ask, why not give it a chance? The status quo has been as useful as a one armed trapeze artist with an itchy ass. You are opinionated we get that. How about work with these guys and act like a grown up and perhaps participate in change instead of sitting on the sideline pissing in everyone's water. If this does come to fruition and you can help shape it to closer to what you want perhaps you may be satisfied?
My 2 cents.
Re: College of Pilots
Kirsten B.
I'm not sure which are your thoughts or comments from others pulled from the previous thread.
I have looked through the thread you reference and have chosen to only post to this thread as it is more current.
While three years in many respects is an eternity, for the development of the College it has been an agonizing blink of the eye- see my first post. The progress has been slow- have you ever been in a group of volunteers? We are still very much at the "get go" from my perspective.
The "elietism" quotes you mention are something that does worry the board. Again, we sincerely hope that more people from other facets of piloting in Canada will join us soon.
As for skulking around or working behind closed doors or secret handshakes (made the last one up) we haven't been doing that intentionally. We just want to make sure we have this figured out correctly in our heads before we go to the masses to get shot down.
TCCA issued, ICAO recognized licenses would be intact in a world with a fully functioning College. I am curious, why wouldn't you be comfortable with an elected group of respected peers being a part of this process? Additionally, we expect that in order to transition to an environment with a fully functioning College an ammendment to the aeronautics act would required via a bill in Parliament. That wouldn't be possible by a clandestine process that you have outlined.
I have the utmost respect as do the other members of the Board for all of the other players behind the scenes that "make it happen".
Finally, at the risk of sarcasm, perhaps you should change your tagline quote, given your attitude on this matter. I find it humourously ironic!
Just saw some new posts:
Doc:
See above, self appointed- no way! Elected by the members- yes. So, like Parliament, you get's what you vote for!
Your quote from teacher and comment- indeed the problem. Over time perhaps the College could help alleviate this through mentoring. As I've said before, this is not a process that will occur overnight.
Rose coloured- maybe. I guess you didn't interpret misbehaving as an understatement. It would need to be events of the calibre that Cat driver describes. Serious events.
Contrite:
The 1/3 figure is the milestone we have arbitrarily chosen as the point where the College truly becomes democratic. Assuming we can achieve that level of membership, then the Board of the day will step down and national elections will be held. At that point, the new board would continue the work to develop what I call the "fully implemented College". Again, it would be up to the membership to drive the bus at that point, just as it is now except at this point it is a vision we're selling. I agree that one TC is enough. I don't want this to be another layer.
$500 is a lot more than we envision at this point. About eight times more. I don't see anyone getting rich from this endeavour. Certainly not me! As time passes and as the organization becomes more sophisticated, then the members would need to consider increases.
126.75:
Thanks. I was gonna curl up and cry until I read your post.
---
I think I'll take a break now.
Goodnight
I'm not sure which are your thoughts or comments from others pulled from the previous thread.
I have looked through the thread you reference and have chosen to only post to this thread as it is more current.
While three years in many respects is an eternity, for the development of the College it has been an agonizing blink of the eye- see my first post. The progress has been slow- have you ever been in a group of volunteers? We are still very much at the "get go" from my perspective.
The "elietism" quotes you mention are something that does worry the board. Again, we sincerely hope that more people from other facets of piloting in Canada will join us soon.
As for skulking around or working behind closed doors or secret handshakes (made the last one up) we haven't been doing that intentionally. We just want to make sure we have this figured out correctly in our heads before we go to the masses to get shot down.
TCCA issued, ICAO recognized licenses would be intact in a world with a fully functioning College. I am curious, why wouldn't you be comfortable with an elected group of respected peers being a part of this process? Additionally, we expect that in order to transition to an environment with a fully functioning College an ammendment to the aeronautics act would required via a bill in Parliament. That wouldn't be possible by a clandestine process that you have outlined.
I have the utmost respect as do the other members of the Board for all of the other players behind the scenes that "make it happen".
Finally, at the risk of sarcasm, perhaps you should change your tagline quote, given your attitude on this matter. I find it humourously ironic!
Just saw some new posts:
Doc:
See above, self appointed- no way! Elected by the members- yes. So, like Parliament, you get's what you vote for!
Your quote from teacher and comment- indeed the problem. Over time perhaps the College could help alleviate this through mentoring. As I've said before, this is not a process that will occur overnight.
Rose coloured- maybe. I guess you didn't interpret misbehaving as an understatement. It would need to be events of the calibre that Cat driver describes. Serious events.
Contrite:
The 1/3 figure is the milestone we have arbitrarily chosen as the point where the College truly becomes democratic. Assuming we can achieve that level of membership, then the Board of the day will step down and national elections will be held. At that point, the new board would continue the work to develop what I call the "fully implemented College". Again, it would be up to the membership to drive the bus at that point, just as it is now except at this point it is a vision we're selling. I agree that one TC is enough. I don't want this to be another layer.
$500 is a lot more than we envision at this point. About eight times more. I don't see anyone getting rich from this endeavour. Certainly not me! As time passes and as the organization becomes more sophisticated, then the members would need to consider increases.
126.75:
Thanks. I was gonna curl up and cry until I read your post.
---
I think I'll take a break now.
Goodnight
Re: College of Pilots
Thanks. Just had half a beer come up all over my keyboard. Great quote!126.75 wrote: I ask, why not give it a chance? The status quo has been as useful as a one armed trapeze artist with an itchy ass.
They're welcome to have a go at it....but "out in the open" with known goals and intentions. I'm on a "high horse" totally on purpose. I like the view from up here....
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Cat Driver
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Re: College of Pilots
I have carefully kept track of this proposed college of pilots since it first was discussed here.
Every once in a while I am compelled to take a stance that may not agree with some of my friends here.
I am nearing the end of my flying career and for over half a century I have agonized over the lack of protection for the lower levels of aviation.
These people need our support to get something started, it will evolve as the democratic process evolves, sure most of the board are probably airline pilots, but they started at the same level everyone else did.
I vote we try and help Tom and his group get this off the ground. Once off the ground it goes to a membership vote as to who and what you get.
If you are really sincere about how it should be run all you need do is run for a position on the board...quite simple.
Sounds good to me.
Every once in a while I am compelled to take a stance that may not agree with some of my friends here.
I am nearing the end of my flying career and for over half a century I have agonized over the lack of protection for the lower levels of aviation.
These people need our support to get something started, it will evolve as the democratic process evolves, sure most of the board are probably airline pilots, but they started at the same level everyone else did.
I vote we try and help Tom and his group get this off the ground. Once off the ground it goes to a membership vote as to who and what you get.
If you are really sincere about how it should be run all you need do is run for a position on the board...quite simple.
Sounds good to me.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: College of Pilots
If this college gets off the ground and looks like it has potential I will run for office and for the first term take zero pay.
Aviation has been good to me and money is not what motivates me.
Aviation has been good to me and money is not what motivates me.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: College of Pilots
Motivation aside, funding is still a significant factor:
There are 23,000 potential members…
The 1/3 figure is the milestone we have arbitrarily chosen…
$500 is a lot more than we envision at this point. About eight times more.
23,000 divided by 3, times 500, divided by 8 = an annual budget of $479,166 to kick off a national professional organization with various significant powers, with plenty of start-up costs for legal, accounting, infrastructure, travel and soliciting of members. And this assumes that everyone involved works for free. And if this magic does somehow come about for the price of a condo in Vancouver, the two-thirds of the pilots who do not want it will still be bound by its decisions?
As for the good cop fighting off the evil companies, either this organization will interpose itself between you and your employer or not. If so, it is a union. If not, it will be powerless in your relationship with your employer, and if for some reason a pilot succumbs to the pressure to bend rules, to pay a bond, or to work for low pay, it is proposed that the pilot lose his ability to work, and the company remains untouched. If the college can force people not to work at such a company by rescinding their licence, then it is a union; there is simply no way on one hand to say that the college is some benign entity that achieves its aims through firm language and a virtuous example, but one the other hand to say that if pilots and companies do not achieve their standards they cannot continue in the business.
Even if everyone finally admits this is just a national union in disguise, then it is going to cost way more than a few hundred thousand bucks a year to establish and run it, and no one is going to be working on the executive for free for long. Just sayin'.
There are 23,000 potential members…
The 1/3 figure is the milestone we have arbitrarily chosen…
$500 is a lot more than we envision at this point. About eight times more.
23,000 divided by 3, times 500, divided by 8 = an annual budget of $479,166 to kick off a national professional organization with various significant powers, with plenty of start-up costs for legal, accounting, infrastructure, travel and soliciting of members. And this assumes that everyone involved works for free. And if this magic does somehow come about for the price of a condo in Vancouver, the two-thirds of the pilots who do not want it will still be bound by its decisions?
As for the good cop fighting off the evil companies, either this organization will interpose itself between you and your employer or not. If so, it is a union. If not, it will be powerless in your relationship with your employer, and if for some reason a pilot succumbs to the pressure to bend rules, to pay a bond, or to work for low pay, it is proposed that the pilot lose his ability to work, and the company remains untouched. If the college can force people not to work at such a company by rescinding their licence, then it is a union; there is simply no way on one hand to say that the college is some benign entity that achieves its aims through firm language and a virtuous example, but one the other hand to say that if pilots and companies do not achieve their standards they cannot continue in the business.
Even if everyone finally admits this is just a national union in disguise, then it is going to cost way more than a few hundred thousand bucks a year to establish and run it, and no one is going to be working on the executive for free for long. Just sayin'.
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Cat Driver
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Re: College of Pilots
Is Contrails in Alberta a union?
Are they a college?
Do they have any power over who works where?
Do chief pilots and operations managers have any power under law?
Are they a union?
Are they a college?
Are they a college?
Do they have any power over who works where?
Do chief pilots and operations managers have any power under law?
Are they a union?
Are they a college?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: College of Pilots
Just to clarify, you and others would want to work for free, to run an organization whose mission statement will contain the goal of improving pilot's terms and conditions, and to have in the by-laws the ability to revoke the licence of someone that buys a job or works for less than the set scale? Can we look forward to other contradictions in this leading by example exercise? Or are you saying that sometimes it is justified for someone to earn less than an accepted standard?
Re: College of Pilots
TomM
"I'm not sure which are your thoughts or comments from others pulled from the previous thread." The entire post was mine - present added, and past quoted.
"I have looked through the thread you reference and have chosen to only post to this thread as it is more current." Interesting, as the comments made then, remain relevant - particularly given that a small elite group of people are shaping the intended focus of an organization they intend to "benefit" all, without their input. Do you not think people might be interested, and have a right to know the full history and truth behind the development of this organization? Three years, with or without progress, is no longer the "get go".
"While three years in many respects is an eternity, for the development of the College it has been an agonizing blink of the eye- see my first post. The progress has been slow- have you ever been in a group of volunteers? We are still very much at the "get go" from my perspective." I have been both leader and active participant of various volunteer groups effecting positive social change for the past 15 years.
"The "elietism" quotes you mention are something that does worry the board. Again, we sincerely hope that more people from other facets of piloting in Canada will join us soon. " It seems that it has bothered the group of 10 so much for the past 3 years that they have not done anything about it. We (everyone) should have been invited from the start, but instead a small group of people that do not reflect the majority, are trying to represent, and rule the majority.
"As for skulking around or working behind closed doors or secret handshakes (made the last one up) we haven't been doing that intentionally. We just want to make sure we have this figured out correctly in our heads before we go to the masses to get shot down." Again, we should have been invited from the start, but instead a small group of people that do not reflect the majority, are trying to represent, and rule the majority.
"TCCA issued, ICAO recognized licenses would be intact in a world with a fully functioning College. I am curious, why wouldn't you be comfortable with an elected group of respected peers being a part of this process? Additionally, we expect that in order to transition to an environment with a fully functioning College an ammendment to the aeronautics act would required via a bill in Parliament. That wouldn't be possible by a clandestine process that you have outlined. No, I absolutely do NOT want any other agency than the Canadian Federal Government in charge of my internationally recognized (ICAO) Canadian licenses, or any aspect of issuing, renewing, endorsing and/or revoking them (pretty sure I stated this already). Nor do I want any other method other than due process under federal law governing my right to work in my own country."
"I have the utmost respect as do the other members of the Board for all of the other players behind the scenes that "make it happen". " We don't want you "behind the scenes" if you intend to try to shape, change or otherwise affect our livelihood.
"Finally, at the risk of sarcasm, perhaps you should change your tagline quote, given your attitude on this matter. I find it humourously ironic!" I'm sorry to hear you don't appreciate, or perhaps understand (in context) Amelia's words. I've spent the better part of my life accomplishing things I was told were impossible. I can't recall any of those achievements including imposing my personal agenda on a large group of people, particularly without their input, knowledge or consent.
My grandfather always used to say "tomorrow is the first day of the rest of your life". I might suggest this could be applied to your group. People will take ownership, responsibility and pride in that which they help build. Instead of imposing "the impossible" (your words, not mine), achieving it can be made possible by starting over at the beginning and building the association properly.
Cheers,
Kirsten B.
"I'm not sure which are your thoughts or comments from others pulled from the previous thread." The entire post was mine - present added, and past quoted.
"I have looked through the thread you reference and have chosen to only post to this thread as it is more current." Interesting, as the comments made then, remain relevant - particularly given that a small elite group of people are shaping the intended focus of an organization they intend to "benefit" all, without their input. Do you not think people might be interested, and have a right to know the full history and truth behind the development of this organization? Three years, with or without progress, is no longer the "get go".
"While three years in many respects is an eternity, for the development of the College it has been an agonizing blink of the eye- see my first post. The progress has been slow- have you ever been in a group of volunteers? We are still very much at the "get go" from my perspective." I have been both leader and active participant of various volunteer groups effecting positive social change for the past 15 years.
"The "elietism" quotes you mention are something that does worry the board. Again, we sincerely hope that more people from other facets of piloting in Canada will join us soon. " It seems that it has bothered the group of 10 so much for the past 3 years that they have not done anything about it. We (everyone) should have been invited from the start, but instead a small group of people that do not reflect the majority, are trying to represent, and rule the majority.
"As for skulking around or working behind closed doors or secret handshakes (made the last one up) we haven't been doing that intentionally. We just want to make sure we have this figured out correctly in our heads before we go to the masses to get shot down." Again, we should have been invited from the start, but instead a small group of people that do not reflect the majority, are trying to represent, and rule the majority.
"TCCA issued, ICAO recognized licenses would be intact in a world with a fully functioning College. I am curious, why wouldn't you be comfortable with an elected group of respected peers being a part of this process? Additionally, we expect that in order to transition to an environment with a fully functioning College an ammendment to the aeronautics act would required via a bill in Parliament. That wouldn't be possible by a clandestine process that you have outlined. No, I absolutely do NOT want any other agency than the Canadian Federal Government in charge of my internationally recognized (ICAO) Canadian licenses, or any aspect of issuing, renewing, endorsing and/or revoking them (pretty sure I stated this already). Nor do I want any other method other than due process under federal law governing my right to work in my own country."
"I have the utmost respect as do the other members of the Board for all of the other players behind the scenes that "make it happen". " We don't want you "behind the scenes" if you intend to try to shape, change or otherwise affect our livelihood.
"Finally, at the risk of sarcasm, perhaps you should change your tagline quote, given your attitude on this matter. I find it humourously ironic!" I'm sorry to hear you don't appreciate, or perhaps understand (in context) Amelia's words. I've spent the better part of my life accomplishing things I was told were impossible. I can't recall any of those achievements including imposing my personal agenda on a large group of people, particularly without their input, knowledge or consent.
My grandfather always used to say "tomorrow is the first day of the rest of your life". I might suggest this could be applied to your group. People will take ownership, responsibility and pride in that which they help build. Instead of imposing "the impossible" (your words, not mine), achieving it can be made possible by starting over at the beginning and building the association properly.
Cheers,
Kirsten B.
“Never interrupt someone doing something you said couldn’t be done.” Amelia Earhart
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Cat Driver
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Re: College of Pilots
As I see this body that is in the process of being formed there are no set rules yet, there is a chance to form an organization that will workin the best interests of the aviation industry.Just to clarify, you and others would want to work for free, to run an organization whose mission statement will contain the goal of improving pilot's terms and conditions, and to have in the by-laws the ability to revoke the licence of someone that buys a job or works for less than the set scale? Can we look forward to other contradictions in this leading by example exercise? Or are you saying that sometimes it is justified for someone to earn less than an accepted standard?
There are evil people in all segments of society and there are good people in all segments of society what sets us apart from some other societies is we have rule of law and as I see it the college will work under rule of law.
As to workning for free I personally do not believe in working for free, volunteering to sit on a board for one term is not working for free.
I have no idea if a college would be involved in what a member gets paid for their work, personally I believe in getting paid top dollar for my time, but then I have the qualifications and background to get what I ask for.
The beauty of this process is if you do not agree with what people such as me stand for don't vote for us.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: College of Pilots
That is an interesting comment Cat, about Contrail. Despite the sometimes bad rep, and the eternal bad haircut, their pilot requirements, I think, actually do contribute to safety. And also to higher wages for experience. The only people complaing are the inexperienced and the operators who have to pay more for experience. Inexperienced pilots constantly pay lip service to the need for experience, but it seems from their firing off resumes when they do not have the experience, that it is , in fact, just lip service, and not understanding.
BTW.. They do not just pull the requirements out of a hat..They are researched and based on quite a solid foundation.
What do you suppose would be the reaction of the members of the college, if the college tried to lobby that kind of requirment for different aircraft, or up the requirements for the A-joke-now license?
It will be an uphill battle to improve the industry , if improvement is not considered by some to be in their career interests. And experience is, from what I ahve seen, a stumbling block that pilots want to ignore to move up the ladder.
BTW.. They do not just pull the requirements out of a hat..They are researched and based on quite a solid foundation.
What do you suppose would be the reaction of the members of the college, if the college tried to lobby that kind of requirment for different aircraft, or up the requirements for the A-joke-now license?
It will be an uphill battle to improve the industry , if improvement is not considered by some to be in their career interests. And experience is, from what I ahve seen, a stumbling block that pilots want to ignore to move up the ladder.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: College of Pilots
Fair enough Cat, but I can not see how spending considerable time lending advice and expertise is not work. Call it volunteering or a hobby or whatever, if you take on an obligation in a professional organization to perform a function, it is a value for which you are choosing not to get paid for.
The so-called beauty of this process is actually the danger of this process. I and two-thirds of my peers can choose to not vote for this at all, but it will still go ahead as it is currently proposed, and it is not likely that even a third will join if it does not address wages and conditions. But once the college is underway, it will only get more intrusive as it attempts to justify its existence.
There is no such thing as what is best for the industry, only what is best for a particular element that is a part of the industry; sometimes those conflicting interests align, but mostly they do not. This reality is what has brought us to where we are today. This college will not change this dynamic.
The so-called beauty of this process is actually the danger of this process. I and two-thirds of my peers can choose to not vote for this at all, but it will still go ahead as it is currently proposed, and it is not likely that even a third will join if it does not address wages and conditions. But once the college is underway, it will only get more intrusive as it attempts to justify its existence.
There is no such thing as what is best for the industry, only what is best for a particular element that is a part of the industry; sometimes those conflicting interests align, but mostly they do not. This reality is what has brought us to where we are today. This college will not change this dynamic.
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: College of Pilots
Yes Trey Kule your comments are valid.
That is why any new body such as this proposed college needs people like us to make sure it goes in the right direction.
You should consider being part of the process.
. E.
That is why any new body such as this proposed college needs people like us to make sure it goes in the right direction.
You should consider being part of the process.
. E.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: College of Pilots
Contrite, I understand how you feel and in general terms agree that your position is justified.
But.........from my experience in aviation there has never been any real protection for the average low level working grunt in the industry.
My goal is to try and create protection for the lower level of aviation.
As to pay for a one term election to the board the satisfaction of having helped those who need help is priceless.
By the way I am starting a new career in aviation that pays very well and I have lots of spare time to help get a new organization started.
But.........from my experience in aviation there has never been any real protection for the average low level working grunt in the industry.
My goal is to try and create protection for the lower level of aviation.
As to pay for a one term election to the board the satisfaction of having helped those who need help is priceless.
By the way I am starting a new career in aviation that pays very well and I have lots of spare time to help get a new organization started.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: College of Pilots
Got to say it. I'm on board with snoopy on most of her latest post. The "behind the scenes" remark, I find particularly "cloak and dagger". I don't want anybody, who is trying to have ANY control over my livelihood to be sneaking around, making decisions that in any way will have any effect on me. I haven't authorized it. It does NOT have my blessings. I don't want you. Stay away. In what galaxy do you even think you have the right? Make you intentions known, or water your own garden. Mine is just fine thank you.
Re: College of Pilots
Usually agree with you Cat, but in this case, if "the average low level working grunt" wants protection in the industry, it's up to him/her to seek it out, not have it rammed down his/her throat by somebody else's idea of what's right, and what's wrong.Cat Driver wrote: But.........from my experience in aviation there has never been any real protection for the average low level working grunt in the industry.
Re: College of Pilots
Cat, I understand your position, and accept your good intent. But, by the same token, isn't getting that first job even it means working for nothing and paying for training "priceless" to a new CPL pilot? Is not his rationalization just as valid as yours for his particular place in his career? The only "protection" someone has in this instance is what that someone chooses to do; what you are talking about is saving people from themselves by limiting their choices and banishing them if they do not see their own personal circumstances as you do. Once that kind of mechanism is in place, it is not long before other more currently legitimate activites get "protected".
I agree with Doc, these things that we seek to eliminate are perpetuated by the very people we are trying to "protect", and in the absence of total control over how every company operates and what every pilot chooses the college cannot succeed in this goal. But if it does get that control, it is not what it is currently being presented as, and all this evasive dancing around about what college will be and what it will do is a source of great discomfort.
I agree with Doc, these things that we seek to eliminate are perpetuated by the very people we are trying to "protect", and in the absence of total control over how every company operates and what every pilot chooses the college cannot succeed in this goal. But if it does get that control, it is not what it is currently being presented as, and all this evasive dancing around about what college will be and what it will do is a source of great discomfort.
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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Re: College of Pilots
I am as concerned about the direction this college may go as you people.
For some time now I have been thinking about looking deeper into what they are planning.
I intend to talk directly to those involved and see if they will communicate with me.
Until I have more information I am as in the dark as you are.
In my favor on this issue I will not ruin my career and reputation on something that is not in the best interest of my colleagues in aviation..........remember I am not anonymous here.
For some time now I have been thinking about looking deeper into what they are planning.
I intend to talk directly to those involved and see if they will communicate with me.
Until I have more information I am as in the dark as you are.
In my favor on this issue I will not ruin my career and reputation on something that is not in the best interest of my colleagues in aviation..........remember I am not anonymous here.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Prairie Chicken
- Rank 7
- Posts: 727
- Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:12 pm
- Location: Gone sailing...
Re: College of Pilots
More random thoughts:
The references to Contrail are, I think, right on. I agree with Kule, and would like to see the College as being something akin to ISO for aviation in Canada. Set positive standards and any pilot or company who wishes to meet those standards, and continues to meet them, can put the College’s seal on their business card. Nothing regulatory about it, but after a while customers start asking for suppliers—pilots, air operators-- who meet the College’s standards. Being a member is your ticket to the game. Bid documents might specify that bidders must be a member of the College. That sort of thing.
As far as cloak n’ dagger, behind the scenes, elitism: Did any of you ASK to participate three years ago? Were you rejected? I suspect not. I DID contact the College executive, obtained & read thru their progress to date, and offered my assistance if & when my particular expertise is required. I’ve continued to follow their progress and at some point may, or may not, contribute. To those of you taking TomM’s words and attempting to shoot holes in them, I suggest it is one hell of a lot easier to criticise than it is to do the leg work, make decisions, commit time, and try to form a fledgling organization of this nature! I get seriously annoyed at those who are alleging all sorts of conspiracies, not constructively but aggressively, without appreciating this group for what they are trying to accomplish for the industry. And I DO believe they have good intentions. I can’t say I’d blame TomM from dropping back out of sight or giving up with the responses we’re seeing here. Of course, that’s what some of you are hoping for, right?
I really don’t see TC delegating, thru regulation or otherwise, significant authority over licences to any College. They tried the self-regulation approach with 604 & we know where that ended up.
Doc, love the comment about liking the view from atop your high horse!
Am I reading you guys correctly? Are you cutting Cat for volunteering his time for a cause he believes in??? Jesus H. Roosevelt Crist! A tremendous amount of good work in this world gets done thanks to NGO’s and volunteers! Good grief, would you prefer Cat turned his free time & talents to coaching little league???
I too vote to support the College in their efforts. I’m not suggesting you write them a blank cheque to do whatever they wish. You participate actively or only as a member, and stay vigilant to ensure their actions are democratic (maybe not your choice, but the choice of the majority).
The references to Contrail are, I think, right on. I agree with Kule, and would like to see the College as being something akin to ISO for aviation in Canada. Set positive standards and any pilot or company who wishes to meet those standards, and continues to meet them, can put the College’s seal on their business card. Nothing regulatory about it, but after a while customers start asking for suppliers—pilots, air operators-- who meet the College’s standards. Being a member is your ticket to the game. Bid documents might specify that bidders must be a member of the College. That sort of thing.
I’m afraid I have to agree with contrite on that one. That’s life, and not just in aviation. The best solution, not a perfect one by any means, but the best we know of so far is to participate. It’s called democracy.There is no such thing as what is best for the industry, only what is best for a particular element that is a part of the industry; sometimes those conflicting interests align, but mostly they do not. This reality is what has brought us to where we are today. This college will not change this dynamic.
As far as cloak n’ dagger, behind the scenes, elitism: Did any of you ASK to participate three years ago? Were you rejected? I suspect not. I DID contact the College executive, obtained & read thru their progress to date, and offered my assistance if & when my particular expertise is required. I’ve continued to follow their progress and at some point may, or may not, contribute. To those of you taking TomM’s words and attempting to shoot holes in them, I suggest it is one hell of a lot easier to criticise than it is to do the leg work, make decisions, commit time, and try to form a fledgling organization of this nature! I get seriously annoyed at those who are alleging all sorts of conspiracies, not constructively but aggressively, without appreciating this group for what they are trying to accomplish for the industry. And I DO believe they have good intentions. I can’t say I’d blame TomM from dropping back out of sight or giving up with the responses we’re seeing here. Of course, that’s what some of you are hoping for, right?
I really don’t see TC delegating, thru regulation or otherwise, significant authority over licences to any College. They tried the self-regulation approach with 604 & we know where that ended up.
Doc, love the comment about liking the view from atop your high horse!
Am I reading you guys correctly? Are you cutting Cat for volunteering his time for a cause he believes in??? Jesus H. Roosevelt Crist! A tremendous amount of good work in this world gets done thanks to NGO’s and volunteers! Good grief, would you prefer Cat turned his free time & talents to coaching little league???
I too vote to support the College in their efforts. I’m not suggesting you write them a blank cheque to do whatever they wish. You participate actively or only as a member, and stay vigilant to ensure their actions are democratic (maybe not your choice, but the choice of the majority).
Prairie Chicken
Re: College of Pilots
You know PC, after you mentined that , I went and reread the thread on contrail requirements.
I think you might have come up with the best idea yet.... If the college could convince customers to use companies that meet college standards for flying a particular aircraft or type of operation, it would go along way towards making the college effective.
It would not be an onereous amount of work for a college to have an employer send in each year who flew for them and the hours, training on type...contrail used to require it when I was dealing with them.
Maybe one of the paths to follow is to demonstrate to companies that if they participate by providing statistics to the college say twice a year, that the whole industry will benefit. Many companies who now dont use Contrail ride on the coattails by only going to Contrail operators..Something a college could do.
The only fly in the ointment is audit companies like Contrail dont give a rats butt if pilots like them or not.
they care about their customer who is paying for the audit. there might be a bit of a problem convincing pilots that a college is trying to set standards.....gets in the way of the whole career path thing. Pilots want to be called professional, but dont want the standards raised ......
But it just might make aviaition safer. Get wages increased, And get some professionalism back in the profession....
Good idea.
I think you might have come up with the best idea yet.... If the college could convince customers to use companies that meet college standards for flying a particular aircraft or type of operation, it would go along way towards making the college effective.
It would not be an onereous amount of work for a college to have an employer send in each year who flew for them and the hours, training on type...contrail used to require it when I was dealing with them.
Maybe one of the paths to follow is to demonstrate to companies that if they participate by providing statistics to the college say twice a year, that the whole industry will benefit. Many companies who now dont use Contrail ride on the coattails by only going to Contrail operators..Something a college could do.
The only fly in the ointment is audit companies like Contrail dont give a rats butt if pilots like them or not.
they care about their customer who is paying for the audit. there might be a bit of a problem convincing pilots that a college is trying to set standards.....gets in the way of the whole career path thing. Pilots want to be called professional, but dont want the standards raised ......
But it just might make aviaition safer. Get wages increased, And get some professionalism back in the profession....
Good idea.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: College of Pilots
I brought up Contrails for the simple purpose of pointing out they are not regulatory, they set a standard a pilot must meet to be approved.
There are several of us on this forum who hold air display authorities, to hold one you must meet a standard that has been set for the purpose of public safety to ensure you can actually fly air displays without losing control and killing the audience.
The bottom line is unless there is a method by which pilots can be judged beyond just the time they have logged the chance of earnings and working conditions improving are remote.
There are several of us on this forum who hold air display authorities, to hold one you must meet a standard that has been set for the purpose of public safety to ensure you can actually fly air displays without losing control and killing the audience.
The bottom line is unless there is a method by which pilots can be judged beyond just the time they have logged the chance of earnings and working conditions improving are remote.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
