What do you teach for the Forced Approach

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B-rad
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Re: What do you teach for the Forced Approach

Post by B-rad »

MIQ wrote: It would be great if someone would like to look over it and give me some tips for improvement. Especially the cockpit check and passenger briefing is something that I'm not quite sure about yet.

Forced Landing Procedure

1. Set Airspeed 65 Knots

2. Pick a field

3. Cockpit Check:

- Fuel Gauge Quantity
- Engine Instruments / Oil Temperature and Pressure
- Magnetos on ‘Both’
- Master On
- Fuel Pump On
- Mixture Rich
- Fuel Selector on ‘Both’
- Fuel Shutoff Valve On

4. Transponder to 7700

5. ‘MAYDAY’ Emergency Call on 121.5 - ELT On

6. Passgener Briefing:

- Move your Seat all the way to the back
- Seatbelt / Harness Secure
- Fire Extinguisher in the middle & First Aid Kit in the back
- If possible cover your face with a jacket or some kind of cushion
- Shortly before Touch Down unlatch cabin door - don’t open it!
- After Touch Down meet at the back of the aircraft

7. Forced Landing Checklist on final approach:

- Mixture Idle Cut Off
- Fuel Shutoff Valve Off
- Ignition Switch Off
- Flaps as required
- Master Off
- Doors unlatch
- Tail low Touchdown
I'd probably add some carb heat in there somewhere.. possibly right around number 1.
I have also seen coming in a decent and forgetting to richen the mixture lead to engine roughness that could go to engine failure. Personally, I do a check before selecting a field. My belief is part of being a Pilot is situational awareness so I am usually noticing emergency landing areas as I go. In my training I trim for glide, cause check while turning toward my options (for example as I live on the coast if I was over water I turn towards land, if I had passed over an airport or known safe area I turn towards it) but I don't really select a spot or commit any further at this point until I have tried to remedy the issue.

A Tip for what its worth, I like to recall ANC while flying.
perhaps you have heard this term before perhaps not.
it stands for Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.
If you every have a brain fart and feel you should be doing something try ANC.
to me Aviate means a lot of things whether I'm on a cross country, circuits etc. it can be as simple as checking my altitude to checking the gauges or power settings. I cycle thru this ANC.
try it on a engine failure if you go blank.
Aviate - fly the plane, glide speed, check engine, then,
Navigate - where am I and where do I want to go, then,
Communicate - tell people whats going on, then, back to
Aviate - Navigate - Communicate
remember, you dont have to do ALL the aviating, navigating, communicating in one go. example would be after you do the mayday portion of the exercise, perhaps aviate and navigate again before the pax brief.
What do you think of that?
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trey kule
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Re: What do you teach for the Forced Approach

Post by trey kule »

For what its worth, here is the opinion of an old guy.


Aviate....does not include engine checks.
You do not go "back" to aviate..You do other things only as time/situation allows.

Engine failures do not always happen when there is lots of altitude.Keep that in mind.

There is normally an IA memory procedure depending on the plane...Carb heat(if you have a carb), fuel boost, switch fuel tanks..All done by memory and without stopping the aviate part..There should only be a few of them so beware of FTU enhancement. I notice no one has bothered to mention check the guages....If your CHT is redlined, and you have no oil pressure, why would you even attempt a restart? If the engine goes bang,,,cranky cranky before it stops, you probably are not going to get a restart. Make the mental committment.
The usual suspect if your engine just quietly winds down is fuel starvation
and the IAs will depend on your plane type...Not some generic formula...
Glide speed.....65!? Depends on the aircraft does it not?...Best as I remember some singles will fall out of the sky if you try to glide at 65.
The instruction , in my opinion, takes two phases.. A...ground briefing theory...establish best glide speed, and then once that is understood so the student can apply the knowledge in the future, how to determine the best glide speed for the aircraft they are flying. Let them demonstrate they can find that number...not spoon feed it to them...The learning will be alot more meaningful in their future..
It is just to easy for a student to ask...Whats the best glide speed, and get a number. They need more than that.

Yes I am picky. I like to see students learn how to get into the POH and understand the particular aircraft they are flying, and how its systems work....and learn to look at the guages, not just glance at them.
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Last edited by trey kule on Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Beefitarian »

Edit: I made a silly post to rib my pal Trey. It should have been a PM.
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Last edited by Beefitarian on Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Big Pistons Forever
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Re: What do you teach for the Forced Approach

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

MIQ's posts points to the disconnect between how engines actually fail and how the forced approach exercise if taught and tested. As I have posted before the accident stats show that about 80% of all engine failures are directly caused by the actions or inactions of the pilot, with fuel starvation/mismanagement/contamination and carb ice being leading the hit parade. Furthermore for every total engine failure there is at least 2 partial engine failures.

So the best way to deal with the engine failure scenario is to not cause the engine to fail in the first place, and if it does "fail" it will more likely be a partial engine failure (a scenario that almost never gets discussed in flight training) and how you handle it will have very little to do with the TC approved forced approach procedure, and instead will likely have to involve situation specific PDM as to how to you are going to use the power you have.

On one thing the accident record is absolutely clear. For engine failures the least likely scenario for an actual engine failure is when a properly maintained aircraft which has sufficient uncontaminated and properly selected fuel, has a normal runup, smoothly delivers full power on takeoff and has normal engine gauge indications....suddenly and without warning suffers a total loss of power. Or in other words all of the FTU forced approach training is focused on a scenario that almost never happens. :roll:

This has forced me to teach the forced approach 2 ways. The first is practical mitigation strategies to prevent the engine failing in the first place and if it does fail, practical memorized flow IA's that will mostly likely get the engine going again if the pilots mistake caused it to stop. It then concentrates on flying the aircraft and judging the actual flight path so that the aircraft arrives at the selected touch down point. Totally absent are complicated strategies for choosing the "right field" and consulting written checklists, and elaborate scrips for mayday calls and passenger briefs. The PGI has a significant section of time dealing with the partial power scenario.

The second way is to teach to pass the flight test. After real world competence is attained I give them a script to memorize for the radio calls and pax brief and then show them the fields where they are most likely to get the forced approach on the flight test with a few good landmarks that work well for a key point.
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Post by Beefitarian »

Ok but. I'm trimming to best glide for endurance speed or what ever Vletter that would be in the POH. In either of the planes I have time in that's 65kias. While I'm getting that going I'm looking for the field that looks like it has the longest run without anything to hit because these things are built for least amount of structure to hold together when you're flying them not hitting things.

Then as I do my best to glide to the spot or edge(depending on wether it's fenced or not) of the field that I'm using as a makeshift threashold. I'm checking for fuel etc. and that probably means something I don't need like the pitot heat breaker because the most important thing is not getting too slow, and not overshooting my desired contact point by too much.

I agree with you 100% though, if I can get the engine even sort of running it changes to a precautionary landing not a Forced Approach, I can at least pick a better field if there's some problem with the one I picked "on the fly" as it were. If I can just enrichen the mixture and make it run again, even though I'm a dummy for letting it get too lean, I can carry on to my destination.
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MIQ
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Re: What do you teach for the Forced Approach

Post by MIQ »

I should have probably mentioned it earlier, I took the 65 Knots for best gliding speed out of my POH (C172). Obviously a PC-12 or a Beaver has totally different gliding characteristics hence different gliding speeds. Otherwise I would try to find the best gliding speed by maintaining a cruise attitude?
And like Big Pistons already said, my example is for a situation in which the engine failed completely and also failed to restart. Of course that's a pretty rare condition in 'real life' but I'm trying to prepare myself for the next lesson and the flight test.
Big Pistons Forever wrote: The second way is to teach to pass the flight test. After real world competence is attained I give them a script to memorize for the radio calls and pax brief and then show them the fields where they are most likely to get the forced approach on the flight test with a few good landmarks that work well for a key point.
I took my radio calls straight from the RIC Study Guide provided by Transport Canada. Would you mind telling me more about your script for the pax brief or let me know what my pax brief is possibly missing? I really feel like im forgetting something in my pax brief that I posted earlier.

Thanks for all the input on this thread so far. I'm learning quite a lot more than by just studying the flight training manual.
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Rowdy Burns
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Re: What do you teach for the Forced Approach

Post by Rowdy Burns »

MIQ wrote:It would be great if someone would like to look over it and give me some tips for improvement.
Is this a fuel injected C172 (based on glide speed and lack of carb heat throughout)?
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B-rad
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Re: What do you teach for the Forced Approach

Post by B-rad »

trey kule wrote: Aviate....does not include engine checks.
You do not go "back" to aviate..You do other things only as time/situation allows.
I dont see why Aviate should not include engine checks. To Aviate in my head means more then the physical flying, it encompasses all aspects of flying from stick and rudder to analyzing the angle of attack, altitude, winds,etc. and Yes, then I go back thru again. I think I understand you when you say you do things as time and situation allows but im offering this up as a guide. Not the be all end all do this and thats all you need to know. However it does come close :P ANC regards the priorities that its most important to FLY the plane before you worry bout the rest, especially communication. Whats that other saying? Skin, tin, paper? not quite the same guide but something to keep in mind.
I notice no one has bothered to mention check the guages.
..uh ya thats exactly what I mentioned.
Brad wrote:it can be as simple as checking my altitude to checking the gauges or power settings. I cycle thru this ANC.
Glide speed.....65!? Depends on the aircraft does it not?...Best as I remember some singles will fall out of the sky if you try to glide at 65.
The instruction , in my opinion, takes two phases.. A...ground briefing theory...establish best glide speed, and then once that is understood so the student can apply the knowledge in the future, how to determine the best glide speed for the aircraft they are flying. Let them demonstrate they can find that number...not spoon feed it to them...The learning will be alot more meaningful in their future..
It is just to easy for a student to ask...Whats the best glide speed, and get a number. They need more than that.
I'm thought the range and endurance lesson is exactly what this covers. New pilots read up and learn on the power curve, range, and endurance before getting to fly and find those settings for a particular airplane. with this information collected you are able to find the glide speed. Isn't that how it works?

Sorry if I'm coming off as a dick, my girlfriend often tells me I sound like a jerk and I am working on it but I was up late last night and so its early for me.
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Post by Beefitarian »

You're right, when the airplane is functioning well "Aviate" should mean everything that we could be doing. Navigation, engine monitoring, communicating with ATS or FSS, looking for other traffic, watching for changes in clouds, checking our position/track to determine the winds, keeping track of times/fuel/range and pointing the nose at the optimum spot for each segment of the flight.

In this case the engine just quit and it might not be running again for the remainder of the flight no matter what. That period of time may be much shorter than it was when out practicing or recieving instruction.

Aviate at that moment is a word to remind us. You're now a glider pilot and there will be no overshoot unless we did not aviate and we're going way too fast near the ground. In this case it means, slow down, change the glide angle to a long shallow one instead of a short one that's pointing down. Then we increase both the time and distance in the air but be carefull not to slow the plane down too much or the angle of attack will get too high and it will stall the wing.

Aviate in this context is suggesting, "Yes we should be choosing a field while slowing the plane down but make sure we have the plane trimmed and settled to Vg before we start doing extras. We're only going to get a chance to do the extras if we're not too busy with short final/touch down."
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Re: What do you teach for the Forced Approach

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

The West Coast is paralyzed with snow :shock: and I am house bound so stand by for a rant :smt040

For the flight test and in the real world when it suddenly gets really quiet the obvious first things to do are to lower the nose to the glide attitude, trim and point the aircraft at some crashable surface.

For the flight test and in the real world the next thing is to do the IA's (Immediate Action) drills, also commonly called the "cause check". These should be a few simple checks because in the flight test you know the engine is not going to start so you don't want to waste time and in the real world you want to do a gross error check on the systems which are easily correctable and will get power restored, like carb heat for carb ice, changing the fuel selector to a tank that has fuel where you have inadvertently run a tank dry, boost pump on (if fitted) in case the engine driven fuel pump has failed mixture full rich where you have forgotten a leaned out mixture and applied a lot of throttle a quick check of the engine instruments, especially fuel pressure and something obvious like no oil pressure and finally that the mags are on both. This check should be done as a flow. That is a consistent pattern that moves from one item to the next in a logical order. For a C 172 it would be start at the fuel selector move up to the power controls (carb heat,throttle,mixture) and then a counterclockwise circle around the panel ending at the switch panel along the bottom left side of the instrument panel. (As an aside I have rearranged all the C 172 normal and emergency checks to follow the same flow)

-Fuel both quantity check
-carb heat on
-mixture full rich
-engine inst check
-primer in and locked
-mags both

If you practice this in a parked airplanes a few times it can be done quickly and accurately every time and without unduly distracting you from flying the aircraft, and as the physical layout and muscle memory guide you through the pattern there should be no need to consult a written checklist. This where real world and flight test start to diverge. The flight test guide requires you to consult a written checklist. On any forced approach conducted at a lower altitude (3000 AGL) or less every second head down reading the checklist is a second you are not flying the airplane, not good. So on the flight test you want to minimize the lost time by having the checklist allready out on your knee board or face up in a side pocket. Whip it out quickly read through it, get the tick in the box and get back to what actually matters, flying the airplane.

Again we now have the split between real world and flight test. If you are at a lower altitude then real world and flight test no resumption of power means shut down check and fly the forced approach procedure. But if you are cruising from A to B on a real flight chances are you are higher than 3000 feet. If you at 5500 and have a good landing area in sight than you have 3 to 4 minutes of gliding before you are at even 3000 feet, and obviously even more if you are higher than that. My advice is to make use of the time to see if you can get some usable engine power back. Assuming that the initial IA check found nothing obviously wrong run it again as follows (again with a C172 as an example)

-Fuel ..........try selecting one tank
-Throttle......start at full throttle and slowly reduce the throttle. Fuel restrictions and other problems may mean that the engine will only run at one particular throttle setting. When you have found it leave the throttle alone and decide what the new plan is.
-Mixture.......with a low cruise throttle setting start at full rich and then slowly lean the mixture. An induction blockage or carb float issues may have caused an excessively rich mixture and the engine will pick up if the mixture is leaned
-Mags.........Try selecting left and right in turn. Internal failures of a mag can cause one set of sparkplugs to fire at the wrong time upsetting the combustion process, selecting the other mag takes the bad one off line and the engine will now run normally.
-Fuel..........Try the other tank.

If none of these tricks work then it is going to suck to be you. Go to the shut down check and fly the best forced approach of your life. The shut down check should be the exact same flow as you IA, cause check, Fuel off, mixture ICO, mags off, and ideally remember to turn the master off after you have put the flaps down.

The only remaining item to be touched on is the mayday call and pax brief. Real world and you are at 10,500 feet and the engine expires, by all means get a conversation going on the radio to anyone who will listen, text a message of undying love to your girl/boy friend, leave a nice few last words on your mothers answering machine and give a complete pax brief in your best Air Canada Captain gravel voice. Real world and you are at low altitude and the best thing you can do for you and your passenger is make sure you fly the aircraft to a controlled touchdown at a spot of your choosing. ONLY if talking on the radio and doing the pax brief will not effect the flying part should you even consider anything other than turning on the ELT with the cockpit switch and then only when you are sure you have the field made.

Unfortunately the flight test requires the full meal deal even though you are in a low altitude forced approach scenario. I wish I had ten bucks for every forced approach exercise I have seen that started out well but went to shit when the priority shifted from flying the airplane to doing the mayday call and pax brief. The way to get around this on the flight test is to have the script very well memorized so that you can mindlessly rattle it off while concentrating on flying the aircraft. One common trip up is articulating the aircraft position on the mayday call. The best way to handle this for the flight test is to pick a town/lake or other prominent marker at one corner of the area that it is likely you will get then regardless of the actual field you can say the same thing, something like mayday mayday mayday ABC ABC ABC engine failure forced landing north of sunspot. This means that when the pressure is on and you are concentrating flying the airplane you don't have to break concentration to figure out how to describe you present location.

Finally I have some strong opinions on what field to choose but I have already pontificated on that subject on another thread so I will not bore you with the repetition.
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Last edited by Big Pistons Forever on Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Beefitarian »

Nice. Something I noticed besides fly the airplane was this.
-Mixture.......with a low cruise throttle setting start at full rich and then slowly lean the throttle. An induction blockage or carb float issues may have caused an excessively rich mixture and the engine will pick up if the mixture is leaned
I had not considered a float sticking open causing too much fuel.
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Re: What do you teach for the Forced Approach

Post by robertsailor1 »

Don't think your engine will be running with the float stuck no matter the mixture
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