Mediator resigns from talks between Air Canada, pilots

[RudderWhat]

Not to move away from the topic at hand, but why do so many on here seem to want to see the demise of AC and the loss of thousands of jobs?

Thanks so much.

[duranium]

Not to move away from the topic at hand, but why do so many on here seem to want to see the demise of AC and the loss of thousands of jobs?

Thanks so much.

Many reasons but start with jealousy, envy at what the other has but one cannot have for whatever reason. An other plausible reason is the '' lowest common denominator '' ei, drag your peers down with one's self so that all are similar in the nut bowl but the most plausible would be 100% greed at not enjoying on the first day on the job what others took decades to achieve, in plain English, I WANT IT AND I WANT IT NOW, so, because it is not forthcoming, let's sink the ship.

[rudder]

If Air Canada is going into CCAA or worse, is Chorus or Aeroplan stock falling? Those should be the first contracts rewritten.
How can the gov't allow Air Canada to potentially disappear if its so important to the economy that even pax agents are legislated back to work?
Amazing that during negotiations the stock is at $1 but when Milton had stock to dump, it shot up to $3.

The share price has little or nothing to do with negotiations. AC.B is trading at just 94 cents. And this is despite the fact that AC just reverse diluted the stock by 10% by taking up shares. Also, vendor agreements are not the substantial reason that AC cannot consistently produce profits despite the fact that it generates revenues in excess of $10B.

The government does not want AC to go bankrupt and disappear, but it is tired of the AC soap opera and required interventions. If anything, it is these interventions that have delayed another CCAA filing. The market has already assessed AC as technically insolvent and is waiting for AC to do something either this side or the other side of CCAA to demonstrate that sustained profitability is possible. That will not happen under status quo and this whole LCC discussion is a distraction from the real issues.

All that the AC machinations of 2011/2012 prove is that the 2003/2004 plan was a failure. The blame for that should be placed on the shoulders of the then senior management group and their advisors. It wasn't enough and certainly did not leave AC properly positioned to deal with the evolving competitive marketplace. But most of them are gone now and the advisors left with their large cheques as well.

Still remaining, however, are the only parties with a true vested interest in the perpetuation of AC and that is the employees.

[Fanblade]

Rudder,

I have read your post for a while now. One of the more knowable posters on the board. I mostly agree with the above.

The share price has little or nothing to do with negotiations. AC.B is trading at just 94 cents. And this is despite the fact that AC just reverse diluted the stock by 10% by taking up shares.

I tend to disagree with this one though. The amount of labor problems so far? They can't be ignored by the street. The share repurchase was announced in Dec to be up to 10%. AC made one repurchase then. I haven't checked. Have they actually made another since.

Also, vendor agreements are not the substantial reason that AC cannot consistently produce profits despite the fact that it generates revenues in excess of $10B.

Your right. Not the most substantial. But your bias is showing through here. In a razor thin industry like this one there is no room for vendor agreements, labor agreements or any agreement above industry standard.

You are keenly aware, yet deflect this point when it comes to Jazz.

[rudder]

You are keenly aware, yet deflect this point when it comes to Jazz.

If there is a CCAA filing, Jazz (CHR) along with most other vendors will take a significant haircut. The question is whether these same vendors, including CHR, would be willing to take less of a haircut in order to avoid an AC CCAA filing. FWIW, I also see labour as a vendor in this scenario.

Unfortunately, 2003/2004 was not good enough. 2009 was not good enough. And we all know what the definition of insanity is

[ratherbee]

Fanblade:

TA1 had 100k/ year 767 captains in it at the LCC.

Get your facts straight before you spread more misinformation. According to ACPA's website the first year Captain hourly day/night rate for a widebody at the LCC was $167.52 climbing to $176.03.

"Bull!

You are quoting group rates. I went and looked at the 767 captain LCC wage on its own. Year 1. 118k."
FB,

Just to be clear, what I was providing was the actual pay a B767 at LCC would have made.

[Fanblade]

Fanblade:

TA1 had 100k/ year 767 captains in it at the LCC.

Get your facts straight before you spread more misinformation. According to ACPA's website the first year Captain hourly day/night rate for a widebody at the LCC was $167.52 climbing to $176.03.

"Bull!

You are quoting group rates. I went and looked at the 767 captain LCC wage on its own. Year 1. 118k."
FB,

Just to be clear, what I was providing was the actual pay a B767 at LCC would have made.[/quote

To be clear? If you wanted to be clear you would have said " was the actual pay a B767 at LCC would have made after wage sharing with a higher paying aircraft."

[bearinmind]

After the last ccaa filing, AC had to sell off parts to emerge solvent (maybe not solvent but you get the point). They dont have the divisions to sell off this time, however they can sell off bigger pieces of the current business. Theu can sell more business or larger contracts to their teir 2 and teir 3 carriers, sell off more contract maintenence, and sell off the ground handling contracts and service contracts. That would explain why chr.b is rising when their primary customer is falling.

It would give ac a bunch of cash by selling off those contracts, eliminate high cost employee groups (arguable, but would look good on paper), eliminate pension burden, and allow ac to focus on the more profitable business of international flying. I think this is the end game of the current management. He has indicated parts of this already. Our ac.b is not going to hold any value over the next couple months, the worst thing that could have happened for cr is the 6 month mediation process. He wanted this wrapped up by the end of march. I dont think he can hold it up until the end of august. He is probably the most vulnerable now. He has to accept a contract that he doesn't want or drive it into CCAA again.

Then agian he might not have much fight after March 31. I wonder if he will get one of those big cheques like the lottery people get. I hope someone gets a picture of that.

[TheStig]

The LLC rates in the first TA are pretty irrelevant at this point aren't they?

CR has been clear since his appointment as CEO that he wants to get things moving at Air Canada, to expand the airlines international route structure and to become more cost competitive. The fact that contract talks aren't gaining any traction is/are/should be the greatest worry for the pilot group as this indicates the companies new (since the failure of TA1) direction of moving forward (Sky Regional, LCC) without Air Canada's current pilot group.

It has become clear that the pilot's and the company have both dug their heels in, I am glad the pilots are finally standing up for the profession but it is not surprising that Air Canada's management isn't simply going to yield to the pilots demands, they certainly don't seem to have an issue with employee groups conducting strike votes.

This was an interesting interview:

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/Business ... 2206051455

[rudder]

Some of his facts are not correct and the interviewers know it. If you are ever going to have a REAL conversation about the future of AC then there should be an agreed set of facts.

[TheStig]

Rudder, what information is inaccurate?

[rudder]

North American Benchmarking. The interviewers did their homework. And Kevin O'Leary was bang on about AC's current attractiveness to the investment community.

[TheStig]

North American Benchmarking. The interviewers did their homework. And Kevin O'Leary was bang on about AC's current attractiveness to the investment community.

I agree they did their homework (well, he did), and conducted a good, short interview.

However, I believe that if you were to compare Air Canada's average overall pilot compensation it would be very competitive. Yes, there are some cost savings with equipment grouping and other areas where productivity gains that can be easily incorporated. And, sure, the 500 wide-body Captains positions at Air Canada are well compensated (while still competitive with those at UA, AA, Delta, and US Airways), but the other 2500 positions, to a large extent, have been sacrificed to maintain the top end in order to maximize pensions. For what it's worth, I don't agree with this structure (especially with the approaching end of retirement at age 60,) but a lot of pilots have patiently waited for their turn at the top of the seniority list and simply pulling the rug out from under their feet isn't a fair solution either.

Air Canada may not be an attractive investment, but is this because of pilot compensation? As mentioned, the pilots' rolled back salaries 15-20% in CCAA, have seen no wages increases since then, and have become much more productive. Wage cuts for company growth and pension security? We've already fallen for that trick, Cerberus made billions off of it.

So what is your solution? Allow all 'Vacation' flying to be outsourced, as well as all flying on aircraft with less than 120 seats? Starting an LCC with a separate pilot group? Unlimited code-sharing? Slash pension payouts by 25%? All so Kevin O'Leary would invest a billion dollars in Air Canada…I can already envision Air Canada's management on 'The Dragons Den' pitching it to him.

[accumulous]

Kevin O’Leary summed it up with his last zinger of a statement:

"The answer is to make you guys shareholders and you wouldn’t think like this anymore."

The model is fundamentally broken. There is no rapport in the Company. It’s not hard to guess where O’Leary’s capital would be going. It would be interesting to see his Air Canada laundry list but if it’s anything like Dragon’s Den, with the pitches he’s seen, it would come as no surprise for him to simply say he's out.

What AC needs is a clean body sweep on both sides of the table, fresh people and fresh ideas on both sides of the table, in a genre that presents something other than a tooth and nail knock-down fist fight of a modus operandi.

[rudder]

So what is your solution? Allow all 'Vacation' flying to be outsourced, as well as all flying on aircraft with less than 120 seats? Starting an LCC with a separate pilot group? Unlimited code-sharing? Slash pension payouts by 25%? All so Kevin O'Leary would invest a billion dollars in Air Canada…I can already envision Air Canada's management on 'The Dragons Den' pitching it to him.

The answer is to give him, or people like him, something to invest their money in for the long term. CR has one version of that. It will NOT attract any new risk capital to AC as it fails to fix the underlying problem. But there are other options. Start to think like the guy with the money and the solutions should become clearer. Hell, he just offered you a stake in the company if the right plan was in place. Start to look at the issue from a non-labour perspective while understanding that labour is integral to the solution.

[TheStig]

So what is your solution? Allow all 'Vacation' flying to be outsourced, as well as all flying on aircraft with less than 120 seats? Starting an LCC with a separate pilot group? Unlimited code-sharing? Slash pension payouts by 25%? All so Kevin O'Leary would invest a billion dollars in Air Canada…I can already envision Air Canada's management on 'The Dragons Den' pitching it to him.

The answer is to give him, or people like him, something to invest their money in for the long term. CR has one version of that. It will NOT attract any new risk capital to AC as it fails to fix the underlying problem. But there are other options. Start to think like the guy with the money and the solutions should become clearer. Hell, he just offered you a stake in the company if the right plan was in place. Start to look at the issue from a non-labour perspective while understanding that labour is integral to the solution.

To simply take AC's assets and start with a fresh group of employees (all trained and type rated), employment contracts and without pension liabilities would no doubt be a venture capitalists wet dream, however, that isn't an option. Air Canada for better or worse has existing employees/retirees.

The pilots, as stated in the video link, have a long term investment in the success of the airline. Air Canada's current executives have not displayed the same commitment, hard to blame them though when airline doesn't seem to be structured to be profitable. What are needed at the top are trustworthy executives actually interested in building and running an airline, not managing an accounting ledger. Executives that see employees as an asset to be maximized, not a liability to be minimized. Air Canada does not have a corporate culture which enables or encourages its employees to go above and beyond, what pride employees do take in their work is despite of their management, not because of it.

We ARE labour, that's it. What is the difference between pilots who fly for Jazz, AC, WJ, Cathay, Porter, etc? We all show up for work, follow SOP's and provide a safe comfortable flight for our passengers. We don't decide what routes are flown, on which type, at what time of the day. We don't negotiate contracts with ground handlers, determine fuel hedging policy, fleet strategy, and so forth.

FWIW In 2008 as part of the pension payment moratorium the employees were given a 5% stake, those shares were shortly thereafter diluted to less than 2%. I'm not sure if they are worth anything today.

[accumulous]

To simply take AC's assets and start with a fresh group of employees (all trained and type rated), employment contracts and without pension liabilities would no doubt be a venture capitalists wet dream, however, that isn't an option. Air Canada for better or worse has existing employees/retirees.

So did Eaton's, the other flag carrier - Eaton's was trying to be really chic and sell shirts for $110 - and the day after Eaton's went thundering in tail first, everybody was happily getting great deals at Zellers. The public couldn't care less. It's all about where's the best value deal. The first employees out Eaton's door were the first in line for jobs at Zellers. The beat goes on, and it all happens lightning fast. It only took a couple of hours to tape paper over all of Eaton's windows once they slam-clicked the buildings. Sears is next.

Airlines? Spin the roulette wheel. Absorbed, merged, or dissolved. Take a wild guess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_de ... ted_States

[rudder]

... however, that isn't an option. Air Canada for better or worse has existing employees/retirees.

OK. Now factor that reality into a viable solution. Remember, the objective is sustained profitability.

[CanadianEh]

Someone sent this to me and I thought I would pass it along.

I am an army of One - A Captain in the Air Canada army.
For years I was a loyal soldier in Air Canada army. Use to fight for the big red - Now I fight my own war.
I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder.
They used to exhibit labour leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes.
They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.

I used to save Air Canada a thousand pounds of fuel per leg; finding the best altitude, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn!".
I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.
I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up.
I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.

I used to start the air conditioning at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort.
I used to let the price of fuel affect my fuel loads. I still do.
I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I don’t share my success.
I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect paid minutes, number 35 in line for takeoff.

I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make Air Canada rich. Now it's to make Air Canada pay.

When they manipulate summer vacation to save their understaffed airline – I will make them pay
When they force my FO to sit in economy while dead-heading with Jazz pilots sitting in first class– I will make them pay
When they provide me with a sub-standard hotel for me to rest- I will make them pay.
When over-booked customers are denied boarding system wide because of their lack of planning - I will make them pay.
When they force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become Captains, to be FOs again - I will make them pay.
When they try to manipulate my schedule to fix their lack of planning - I will make them pay.
When they trick my FO into flying over his duty day – I will make them pay
When the CEO reveries his 5 million dollars bonus on April 1st while I am still 20% below - I will make them pay
When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.

My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for Air Canada again. Until then, I am an Army of One…And I'm not alone!

[morefun]

Nobody cares about your army of one....you're a spoiled brat!

"I used to let the price of fuel affect my fuel loads. I still do." You're a moron if this is how you fuel for a flight, both when you were the company guy and also when you became the army of one!

[Zip Tie]

My dear poetic pilot if you were in the army you would be a defector!
That was a very damning post for the Air Canada pilot group.True to form though.
You guys should step away from the keyboard for a while........LMAO.

[DBC]

That's been around forever if you look for it, looks like they just replaced a few small details to make it AC specific. Still not a great way to get public support either way.

http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-55755.html

[North Shore]

And when the company goes TU, partly due to your shenanigans, then your army of one will be an army of 3500 at the UI office... Have fun with the army thing, though.

[haironfire]

It's this piss poor attitude you guys at AC have that have caused a lot of your pain. I have a lot of friends at AC and I certainly don't want to see any of the AC pilots out of work, but wow the attitude really needs to change. Guess what? AC pilot's really aren't God's gift to aviation the way you think you are. The world does not revolve around you and owe you the world. This is just plain business. Financially AC is in a world of hurt and they are finally really trying to do something about it to prevent it from going under. You are not going to like the suggestions because they will be required to take things away from you rather than give you more the way you are expecting. Sorry guys, but IMHO you need to change your expectations.

[TheStig]

If you have friends at Air Canada you'd be aware that the attitudes and statements made on this forum aren't representative of the professionalism displayed publicly and the willingness of the pilots to show up every day and safely and efficiently fly despite their own companies constant threats to outsource their jobs.

I'll never understand the eagerness of posters here to see other pilots out of a job.