IDIOT's

bizjet_mania · Post by **bizjet_mania** » Fri May 13, 2005 11:44 pm

Easy to blame the pilots, but at the end of the day its the employer that hires guys that bought PPC. So whose really at fault?

And to you high time guys, very typical for you to complain, but I am pretty sure you didn't see outrageous requirements when you started your career. I hope that if you do move to another company and you are the "low time" guy there you don't get spat on by the high time guys. Look at NetJets, there are guys there that make an enourmous amount of cash but they are still protesting the fact that over 8% of their pilots are eligible for welfare. Don't turn your back on a fellow man, you might need him someday.

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Sat May 14, 2005 4:23 am

bizjet_mania wrote: Look at NetJets, there are guys there that make an enourmous amount of cash but they are still protesting the fact that over 8% of their pilots are eligible for welfare. Don't turn your back on a fellow man, you might need him someday.

I think you may want to recheck your facts. But if it makes you feel a little bit better, you made a couple of NetJets pilots giggle when I showed them your post

.

bizjet_mania · Post by **bizjet_mania** » Sat May 14, 2005 5:05 am

well their 737 guys make a killing Don't think junior FOs make anything. $2260US/month to start. Mesaba guys make less thats for sure. 737 captain start is $11,250/month for a captain, thats more than what Emirates pays even after taxes.

split s · Post by **split s** » Sat May 14, 2005 7:19 am

Doc, Why do new pilots do it every day(work the ground)? They move to places like Pickle or Red and earn their way into this industry, that is where the job is so they move. Pay was'nt really the point although most people's first jobs on the flight line do not vary much from the ramp job, shitty pay. The thoughts by most on this thread seem to think the cause is partly from people willing to buy a PPC or work for nothing, I don't see the double standard or recall endorsing shit pay for anyone

Flying Newf · Post by **Flying Newf** » Sat May 14, 2005 7:22 am

Newf....a real simple question for ya: Isn't a guy who is asked to come up with cash up-front, and does, working for less than the normal wage. And isn't he/she, in effect "buying" a PPC?

Doc
Of course its the same thing, a pilot should never have to put money into a company unless he is an owner or an investor and he does it of his own accord!

A lot of companies put previous PPC preferred, maybe some of the newer guys are being confused by this? Most employers are looking for someone with experience on type to put in a Captain’s position. They are not looking for a 300-hour-wonder to go buy a PPC from Joe blow, because they will probably have to retrain you properly anyway. Thus you sold your soul for nothing!

Rubberbiscuit · Post by **Rubberbiscuit** » Sat May 14, 2005 7:43 am

I think I agree with Doc. Just because a company does not ask for cash up front or require you to have a PPC in hand when you come a knocking on the old door, does not mean they aren't recovering their initial expences somehow. Most airlines that don't have any of these types of arrangements will more than likely pay you shit wages for the first couple of years, i.e. AC. I refuse to belive that this is done for any other reason but to recover the initial investment in you, the emlpoyee.
Unfortunately the Canadian aviation industry has gotten so bad that many operators now are getting away with both cash up front trainingbonds as well as paying peanuts.

Yoyoma · Post by **Yoyoma** » Sat May 14, 2005 7:56 am

Flying Newf, you seem to have decent business ethics. You've already broken a privacy aggreement between you and the applicant by showing the resume to your budies, so why would you go and ruin somebody's reputation like that by blacklisting them?

I don't think this is your job to do ithat nor a decent approach to the problem. It's just not good Business...

smokin_rivet · Post by **smokin_rivet** » Sat May 14, 2005 8:31 am

Bizjet, you got it brotha

Flying Newf · Post by **Flying Newf** » Sat May 14, 2005 11:20 am

Okay guys, here's the deal....I received a bunch of resumes emailed to me in response to an job ad posted on this site. A good percentage of these were from low time guys offering to buy themselves a PPC, or work for free, to secure the position.

Since this is where those guys saw the posting in the first place, I thought I'd start a thread in regards to my disgust with these guys and what they are doing to an already struggling industry. I am glad to see that I am not alone in my dislike of their methods, but saddened to see that there are guys out there that seem to think this is appropriate, even after a discussion and justification of why its wrong.

Nobody was blacklisted, no names were ever used. I did discuss with some other operators what I thought of this tactic to securing a job, only to discover that I was not alone in my unwillingness to hire these guys. Furthermore, the logic to this thread was that maybe you low time guys would get the point...buying a PPC is wrong, and for you operators requiring guys to pay for their training...that's the sh*ts too.

Maybe if we would all, pilots and operators alike get some self-respect and dignity, this industry might be stopped from slipping even further down the sh*t covered slope that its on. Pilots might get the pay they deserve for taking lives into their hands, maybe it would cost more to fly than to take the train.

All and all, this was a good thread, with the exception of the few who focused on the wrong part (the black-listing).
Thanks

split s · Post by **split s** » Sat May 14, 2005 11:29 am

Buying a PPC is only acceptible in one instance--to benifit me! Just jokes

A good thread for the newcomers to read and some valid points. newbees: Don't do it!

EPR1.6 · Post by **EPR1.6** » Sat May 14, 2005 11:50 am

I have alot of disdain for guys that go out and buy ppc's for the sole purpose of attaining a job they don't have yet. Its the employer's responsibility to provide the ppc, and of course the employer is going to want to do this to determine how good (or bad) of a pilot they hired regardless.

It is just as bad that employers will only hire someone with a ppc and not consider the many good applicants that could potentially apply. Its the employers advertised job requirements that are driving new pilots that are desperate to get work to stoop to this level. What goes around comes around...so stop listing ppcs as a requirement for the job ok!

And finally, its TC's fault for implementing this expensive, and possibly unnecessary system of ppc's. Right CAT!

Stinky · Post by **Stinky** » Sat May 14, 2005 12:58 pm

In defense of a company that just listed a PPC as a requirement. All of our current pilots were type rated by the company at no expense to the pilot.
Listing the type rating as a requirement was in order to get a pilot that was ready to go with minimal training. A low timer that went out and spent a bunch of money to get typed would not be considered because it would take longer to have them ready to be captain than hiring an experienced pilot and type rating them.
When a company is short captains, that's what they want. A lot of these companies also hire low timers for more appropriate positions like F.O. without a paid for PPC.