Ground at Wasaya or Transwest?

[+TSRAGR]

Rowdy,

Just making friendly conversation. It was not that long ago that you and I exchanged several PMs about this sort of thing when you were trying to start your career @ TWA.

Each to his own when it comes to the value of lessons learned on the ground or the dock. My scenario was predicated on the operator not being a cheapskate dick.

I do not advocate forcing anyone to work on a dock but if you can hack it you can learn lots. When you have to load by yourself you will know how. I have watched new guys that didn't work freight load aircraft in the field so badly that they tipped on their tail pior to take off.

It will be easier for future captains to oversee ground operations if they are familiar with ground handling equipment and procedures.
I am very supportive of trying to create a well rounded self sufficient pilot. It will be hard to tell someone that they are endangering your aircraft by using a forklift improperly if you have no idea how one works.

Think of some of the top northern captains that you know at Borek and you will find people that can do a lot of useful things in addition to flying the plane. If I was stuck in a bad situation I would prefer that it was with with this type of pilot.

Company flight training is generally geared toward a specific task to be learned by a qualified pilot not to teach pilots how to fly. If we are looking for an apprenticeship then we should promote ourselves as apprentices not "professional pilots".

Cheers

PS The "But again..what do I know? I'm just a guy that flies planes for money." line makes you sound a bit like my mother in law

[just curious]

Think of some of the top northern captains that you know at Borek and you will find people that can do a lot of useful things in addition to flying the plane. If I was stuck in a bad situation I would prefer that it was with with this type of pilot.

Yeah, like forum moderating and such!

[Rowdy]

+TSRAGR - certainly! No arguments here, just some discussion. I can't believe it's been almost 8 years since those PM's. I have to say that I was incredibly unimpressed with the way things were going at TW. I hope they've changed, but from what I keep hearing that doesn't seem to be the case. Too bad, lots of experience in the left seat of the -6's and some really good people flying there... Or have they all gone to KBA now

There are merits to working on the dock and briefly on the ramp, and it is a very good way to (within a few weeks) judge someones work ethic and get them familiar with the operation. However, sitting on the ramp for over a year making peanuts is pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Way way way too many people taking advantage of it and its not limited to one part of the country. Hell look at some of the operators out west and what they're paying copilots...

As far as skills learned on the dock, sure you'll quickly figure out how to load and unload, fuel, clean, px brief and turn an airplane out. Plus watch the flying pilots get on and off the dock. Hopefully they have a good handle on how to do it at that point so you're not picking up bad habits A lot of this should seriously be covered in initial flight training. Why aren't the schools spending that little bit of extra time (and charging for it hint hint) to show commercial students how to fuel, how to secure a load, how to tie up an airplane for an overnight and certainly how to deal with wing covers and engine tents. WHy is there not a quick segment on proper knots and ropes? Or herc strap 101? A lot of people don't get this sort of exposure through their upbringing.

Maybe apprenticeship is the wrong term.. perhaps a mentoring program or internship or something equally in line. Give the 200hr guys a fighting chance and improve the industry pardon the pun, from the ground up! Alls I see these days is complaining. Nobody trying to change anything or bring new ideas to the table.. Maybe I'm just getting a little jaded.. Should I hunt down my rose coloured glasses again? Ill try to avoid the mother in law tones.. and I should probably take off her dress now..

[Brown Bear]

Consider this:

Upon arrival at Blackfly Air you sit down and discuss employment with the Chief Pilot. You are a "professional" pilot. Having spent $50,000. and worked hard for several years you now have MIFR and floats. You have scoured the country on your road trip and really want this job.

You are only willing to consider a flying position because you are not a dockhand, you are a pilot right?

The Chief says O.K., your hired. Ground school for the beaver starts tommorrow at 7 AM.

You walk to your car in disbelief. After the initial shock wears off you ask yourself "can I really do this?". The answer is probably not. Would you really want to? Probably not.

The operator of the Beaver is of course expected to provide a certain amount of training to familiarize an experienced pilot with a new aircraft type and confirm that the pilot is proficient. The operator is not however a flight training unit and should not be expected to provide the amount of training that you would require to safely do the job.

Prior to handing over the Beaver to you the operator might wish to evaluate your abilities and judgement and see that you can perform less complicated tasks. They may also wish to ensure that you know how to load, unload and secure cargo and provide good customer service. He knows that you do not know these things and a thousand others but he may be willing to teach you. The trade off is that you will have to pay your way by doing other tasks that need to be done. They could be done by non aviation types for non aviation wages. That is what you will receive. This is a sort of apprenticeship that will teach you things that will serve you well throughout your career. When and if you are ready the operator will let you loose with the half million dollar Beaver.

The point is that you are not in fact quite as professional as you may believe. 220 hours and a commercial qualifies you for an apprenticeship and little more. You are not a doctor or a lawyer or an accountant. You are a pilot. The job is unique and should not be compared to other "professionals". Doctors for example do not have to prepare the patient for surgery or clean up the mess when they are finished. They do not have to maintain their equipment. They are not generally required to work with little or no support or supervision in remote locations under constantly changing conditions. Their initial training is far more comprehensive and takes much longer. Accountants and lawyers must article for shit wages and work hours that are ridiculous. Such is life.

Many will disagree but this is my opinion.

It's your opinion, and you're welcome to it. I happen to think you've had too much sunshine pumped up your butt.

[+TSRAGR]

Dear Brown Bear,

As you are obviously far more familiar with matters related to butts and their openings I will concede to your wealth of first hand knowledge.

[Cat Driver]

Black Fly Air ???

Do we have to lobotomize our thought process to that level to be considered pilots now?

[+TSRAGR]

WTF???

[flyinthebug]

Black Fly Air ???

Do we have to lobotomize our thought process to that level to be considered pilots now?

Cat... could you expand on this a bit? Im not sure we understand what your getting at with this statement?? Thanks in advance for explaining it.

I believe he was just using "Black Fly air" as a ficticious air service...like we would say "ABC" air service when describing a "northern" op.

[+TSRAGR]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/images/ca-pub ... flyl_3.jpg

[flyinthebug]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/media/images/ca-pub ... flyl_3.jpg

PERFECT example of SMS on the 703 level!!! I hope TC reads this one lol!! Sadly though... its kinda true!!

[+TSRAGR]

TC published it in the Aviation Safety Letter

[Lost Lake]

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I just read the job posting for KD Air. Ho/Chieftan/172 captain. Requirements: 1,ooo TT, time on type, single pilot IFR. $2,000/ month!! You get to live on beautiful Victoria Island where the rent is probably $2000/mon. Flying mountains, shit weather but only 6 or 7 hours a day. If they like you, you get raises. WTF!! What if you are an extremely competent pilot with no personality because thanks to only 7 hr a day, you have time to flip burgers for more money an hour. Rampies get $12/hr, Pilots get $11 an hour. I'd take working the dock or ramping any day. At least you should be able to upgrade and make a better wage, without the respnsibilty and fear factor.

I just wonder how many people with a couple years flying experience will jump on this.

I'm glad I only have a few years left in this business.

[DanWEC]

I just had another offer come down the pipe today for an entry level position with a large company wayyy up north. Everything paid for but food. They take a large chunk of every paycheque, then reimburse you at the end of 4 years to cover costs of training. Sounds like a good company, but pay works out to 7 bucks an hour for the ground position if you have to leave for any reason before the 4 years. That's 1200 a month for 40 hrs a week. Whewwww.
The wife would probably leave me if I said I would be living near the arctic circle for the next nearly half-decade..... Likely have to decline it based on the location only as the crap $$ would only be temporary.
Too bad. Would be an amazing opportunity for a single 20 year old guy to advance quickly.

[Doc]

FOUR YEARS?? Give your head a shake!

[DanWEC]

Agreed. I've taken the option off the table. Nice guys on the phone, but not a position for me and we wouldn't be a good fit.
I thought that remote places had to increase pay as an attraction?? I understand that I'm entry level, but the situation just doesnt cut it. It's the most remote location and least pay of the options so far. They may pay their captains well, I don't have any information there, so possibly an option for a fun summer a few years down the road, but not for their entry level program.

As an aside, at the risk of being judged.... I've been extremely fortunate to have had several options and offers so far as a low time pilot, I'm gratefull and thankful for that but I've noticed something extremely disturbing during all my phone conversations.

Every one of the companies I've had phone interviews with tout themselves as a place to build time, a place to put you in a good spot for a larger company, etc.
So wait........ You are offering me a chance to work for you, and you'll pay me peanuts, but with the intrinsic benefit of eventually being in a good position to work for a BETTER company? I don't think that should be a selling point!

Guess that's just me coming from 15 years of business into aviation as a second career.

Ah well, I signed up for this... At least the entry level only happens once, but as a guy who wants to start his own service eventually, I will go on record now as saying I will never, ever perpetuate this.
I had one operator say I'd spend 100hr weeks, be washing his truck, and since he had to pay his dues on the ramp when he started, everyone else has to as well. That's progressive.
I believe in some hard work and entry level training obviously, it would be retarded to think otherwise, as long as the training is relevant to your position, simple as that.


Edited for iPad autocorrect....

[180]

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I just read the job posting for KD Air. Ho/Chieftan/172 captain. Requirements: 1,ooo TT, time on type, single pilot IFR. $2,000/ month!! You get to live on beautiful Victoria Island where the rent is probably $2000/mon. Flying mountains, shit weather but only 6 or 7 hours a day. If they like you, you get raises. WTF!! What if you are an extremely competent pilot with no personality because thanks to only 7 hr a day, you have time to flip burgers for more money an hour. Rampies get $12/hr, Pilots get $11 an hour. I'd take working the dock or ramping any day. At least you should be able to upgrade and make a better wage, without the respnsibilty and fear factor.

I just wonder how many people with a couple years flying experience will jump on this.

I'm glad I only have a few years left in this business.

They don't call it KD Air for nothing!

[Doc]

So wait........ You are offering me a chance to work for you, and you'll pay me peanuts, but with the intrinsic benefit of eventually being in a good position to work for a BETTER company? I don't think that should be a selling point!
I will go on record now as saying I will never, ever perpetuate this.
I had one operator say I'd spend 100hr weeks, be washing his truck, and since he had to pay his dues on the ramp when he started, everyone else has to as well. That's progressive.


Edited for iPad autocorrect....

Welcome to the attitude I spend so much of my time here dumping on! It's the whole cockamamie though process that says "..our company is crap, we know it and have NO intention of improving the status quo. We pay crap, because we were paid crap. You are just dirt beneath our shoes....sign here, and bring cash...."
I'm very pleased you "will never, ever perpetuate this...." We need more with your mind set. Stick to your guns.
Companies just don't get it. They never will. You get the pilots and loyalty you deserve and pay for. It's cheaper to pay good pilots well....but nobody seems to get this????

[Redneck_pilot86]

I'm very pleased you "will never, ever perpetuate this...." We need more with your mind set. Stick to your guns.

+1

[Rowdy]

+2

[Slats]

A few observations if I may:

1 - When you're starting out, everything is a compromise; a trade-off.
2a - Pay rate is only one of many factors that should be considered when choosing a job, and is not the most important one.
2b - You can make all the money you want at your current job...it will absolutely, unequivocally guaranteed not be the factor that helps you obtain your dream job.
3 - PIC time will get you farther, faster.

I could go on, but these are the most relevant to this thread.

Read between the lines and fill in the blanks as you will.

[peakbagger]

A warning to all you newbies out there

Beware of certain views which are over running these boards. Just because a few people scream to never work the ramp over and over again does not make it the "right" decision.
3 years ago, when I was brand new, if I had heeded Docs warnings I may still be searching for that direct entry job. Instead I worked the ramp for 4 months and eventually left the company on great terms after building close to 3000 hours and making great friends along the way. Working the ramp was an excellent learning tool and I am happy I did it. I have seen many others go this route, and it worked out for most of us.

For the record, I did turn down a TW ramp job, and am happy I did.

Good Luck

[DanWEC]

I'm realistic on what entry level means, and I will try and pick the most appropriate option, lesser of all evils. But just because I might have to start doing dispatch, I don't believe everyone after me would have to as well!

Had another offer today- Operator in Red Lake. Some have warned to stay away, but it's an immediate half ground half flying position, starting at about 10-15 hours a week on a 206, then right seat Ho. Very tempting, but have to really think about it. I trust the opinions of some people here with much more experience than I.

[Cisbour]

Just out of curiosity, did you ask the guys flying the Ho left seat how much they're making in a year at Transwest Dan?
You probably didn't get the chance to ask one of them.. I've heard it could get as low as 26k, if that's true it's probably the lowest possible wage for a Ho in the left seat in the entire country..

[DanWEC]

No, I didn't but WOW. Left seat? If that's true than the dispatch position is only a fraction less. Lol....

[flyinthebug]

TWA pays 26K left seat in a PA31? lol...umm no not true! I worked on the same field for over 4 years. We paid our PA31 drivers 36K for 1st yr, 40K 2nd yr, etc etc and we were not paying as much as TWA or NDA at the time. 26K for a HO?? I havent heard that low of a wage in my entire career!(until the recent KD Air thread at least) I was making more than that flogging around MB in a HO for Sowhat air in the 90s. 1500 base and .15 a mile...flying an average of 1200-1500 SM a day. To say TWA pays that low a wage on a public forum is just bullshit period.

Dan, take the advice you get on this board with a grain of salt. That operator you are speaking of in YRL has worked hard over the last 5-6 yrs to bring his air service up to standards. When they started out they were known to cut a few corners...but the owner soon realized that doing by the book was the better option than pushing pilots and wx. You could do FAR worse than starting on a C206 and loading Navajos. Thats exactly how I started and where I started...YRL, on a 206 (GTCC) and loading the Otters and Beech 18 when I was on the ground. We are NOT talking about another "Keystone" with this op...no where near as bad. You said NWO was your goal and YRL is a great little place in the summer, and you`ll meet alot of GREAT and high time pilots up there! Good luck with your decision.

Peakbagger...Im glad to hear things worked out for you. Starting on the ground is not a bad way to start if it does lead to the flight line. You are obviously proof of that. I have alot of respect for my friend Doc IRL, but he makes alot of noise here sometimes about not working as ground crew, and he and I disagree on this issue and have many times. Only you know whats best for you and your family.
You gotta remember guys like Doc and myself are established now in our careers and it seems like forever ago when we were looking for our 1st job. I think Doc sometimes forgets it was equally as hard back when we started (he started 10 yrs before me cause he is an old bastard LOL) and guys used to push brooms at Air Canada (My uncle was one of them) for up to 2 years to get a right seat in an Electra or DC9. Times havent changed as much as some of us older guys claim it has. Its always been a dog eat dog industry and ive seen best friends steam roll each other for a right seat in a King Air. Sad but true.

Dan...keep us posted on what you decide!
Cheers and fly safe all!
FTB