AVEOS closes the doors

[Colonel Sanders]

why Westjet is so successful and Air Canada is not?

If you're as smart as you keep telling everyone that you are, why do you still work for AC instead of WS?

[Rockie]

why do you still work for AC instead of WS?

Been explained...look for it.

If you're as smart as you keep telling everyone that you are

Please provide a single quote where I've bragged about how smart I am. Just one Hedley.

[Beefitarian]

I'm curious about Aeroman in ElSalvador. I wonder if they are getting increased Air Canada maintanence volume due to the AVEOS shut down?

[CID]

Rockie, I'm well aware of the history of Aveos. You ask me if I know what I'm talking about, then start off on a rant about pilots. Are you aware that Aveos doesn't employ pilots?

I also know that many Aveos employees are just ex-Air Canada unionized labour with a different logo on their work clothes. Generally the same pile of people that worked in that hangar directly for Air Canada. Still unionized, still inefficient.

If you wonder why Westjet apparently manages their people better it's because they don't have a union acting as a constant barrier to communication. With the union in place it's always "us against them". The union leads spend every waking moment explaining to the leadership how management is ripping them off. Westjet workers spend that energy wondering how they can make things more efficient, safer and profitable. And if you think that all those Air Canada pilots were legitimately sick, I've got a bunch of computer cables I'd like to sell you. You know. The ones that those unionized Air Canada ticket agents cut during their dispute with the airline.

[Colonel Sanders]

People think I'm anti-union, and that's not quite true. I've
actually been a dues-paying member of two different unions
(althought what I saw didn't exactly impress me).

What I learned is that although a union itself is not necessarily
bad, it's a warning flag. If the employees of a company need
to join a union to protect themselves from the management,
it says bad things about the company's management.

If the company's management mistreats its employees to the
point where they need a union, the management probably similarly
treats it's customers with contempt.

Any company that treats it's customers and employees with
contempt is bad news. You don't want to own shares in it,
and you don't want to work there.

[Rockie]

You ask me if I know what I'm talking about, then start off on a rant about pilots. Are you aware that Aveos doesn't employ pilots?

Why yes I am. Referring to intimidation techniques as an example of very poor personnel management within the larger context of the discussion is hardly a rant about pilots. You haven't heard my rant about pilots yet.

I also know that many Aveos employees are just ex-Air Canada unionized labour with a different logo on their work clothes.

I'd say more than "many" are ex-Air Canada. Aveos used to be ACTS, and people there were given a choice of go to work for Aveos or apply for unemployment. Air Canada mechanics didn't go begging to ACE asking them to spin them off into a separate company.

If you wonder why Westjet apparently manages their people better it's because they don't have a union acting as a constant barrier to communication.

You have that exactly backwards. Westjet doesn't have a union precisely because they know how to manage people.

And if you think that all those Air Canada pilots were legitimately sick, I've got a bunch of computer cables I'd like to sell you. You know.

The company's own records show there were no more pilots booked off than this time last year. Could it be the company saw an opportunity to blame chronic under-staffing and cancellations caused by extremely poor visibility and degraded airport operations on the pilots? Nah, that couldn't be it. They're far too ethical for that.

[hawker driver]

If you wonder why Westjet apparently manages their people better it's because they don't have a union acting as a constant barrier to communication. With the union in place it's always "us against them". The union leads spend every waking moment explaining to the leadership how management is ripping them off. .

I have worked in both Union and non Union. Through my experience I found that working under a union contract my license , my safety and my job were all more secure.

Prior to the union coming on site managers regularly bent the rules and made all the regulation appear to be grey. Company boys spent every waking moment explaining to the workers how if they weren't "team players" they would end up out of a job. Some pilots were afraid for their jobs and risked their lives and licenses so as to please all the requests from management. This blind devotion to management cost some pilots blemishes on their licenses. Of course, management turned their backs on the guys when they got in trouble and pointed to the "official company policy" to throw them under the bus.

When the last straw was broken an organizing effort started and after a long hard fight we were all working under a contract. Things changed instantly, safety improved and managements attitude also changed. The pilots started being treated with respect, they weren't asked to do things that were dangerous. When some managers tried to push the pilots a simple request back to the manager to put it in an official e mail and send it to me, settled that problem quickly.

Three years later the company is now turning solid profits ( even through the recession). Management is working with the pilots to resolve problems before they occur and the union is working with management to help increase safety and customer service. In the end my union experience turned out to be a positive one.

Even those who were against the union when it was being formed agree that working under a contract is better and they too wouldn't want to go back to the way things were before one. So you see there are just as many positive aspects to unions as you claim there are negative.

[CID]

Hey, there are always exceptions but I don't think you can compare your case with Air Canada and Aveos hawker driver. Wait a couple of decades for your collective agreement to get a little more "experienced". And of course, just like my opinion, your opinion is one side of the story. I wonder if others in your company feel the same.

My opinion is borne from discussions with SEVERAL Air Canada/AVEOS/ACTS employees and former employees over the years as well as discussions with committed union workers. (For what its worth)

I personally know half a dozen maintainers who left Air Canada after only a week or two because of the insanity of the union shop. The key words in those discussions were "inefficient", "unproductive" and "lazy".

[hawker driver]

Hey, there are always exceptions but I don't think you can compare your case with Air Canada and Aveos hawker driver. Wait a couple of decades for your collective agreement to get a little more "experienced". And of course, just like my opinion, your opinion is one side of the story. I wonder if others in your company feel the same.

My opinion is borne from discussions with SEVERAL Air Canada/AVEOS/ACTS employees and former employees over the years as well as discussions with committed union workers. (For what its worth)

I personally know half a dozen maintainers who left Air Canada after only a week or two because of the insanity of the union shop. The key words in those discussions were "inefficient", "unproductive" and "lazy".

While my experience with unions can't be compare with AC and Aveos, likewise your generalization about unions and union members cannot carry over to others.

I too know of AME 's who left their jobs at other airlines and MX organizations because of the insanity of managers who wanted them to sign off aircraft that weren't repaired. The key words I heard were "Dangerous" , "illegal" and "crazy". When he left it was not long before he received another job offer since the word went out that he doesn't cut corners on safety. I was very pleased to hear that since this went to show that there are organizations who still put safety first. Unbelievably there are still organizations who put profit first.

[azimuthaviation]

I'm curious about Aeroman in ElSalvador. I wonder if they are getting increased Air Canada maintanence volume due to the AVEOS shut down?

Nah, you guys dont need to chase your jobs that far,

On a transitional basis, the airline has identified qualified and government-approved maintenance facilities in Canada and the U.S. to undertake work that was scheduled to be performed by Aveos consistent with the high standards of Air Canada's maintenance programs. The transition to new service providers is already underway and will have no impact on customers. For example, three aircraft scheduled for maintenance this week will go to a Quebec-based maintenance provider currently used by other Canadian and international airlines.

[CID]

Unbelievably there are still organizations who put profit first.

Yes. Those companies are known as "still in business".

[ruddersup?]

+1

[aerodude]

Numbers are coming out.. 800 million in debt. How in the hell did they get to that level considering they were 90% contract work!?!

[SeptRepair]

The company's own records show there were no more pilots booked off than this time last year. Could it be the company saw an opportunity to blame chronic under-staffing and cancellations caused by extremely poor visibility and degraded airport operations on the pilots? Nah, that couldn't be it. They're far too ethical for that.

From what I have heard,. those pilots that booked off did it 2 hrs and 1 minute before they were scheduled to work. They did it within the confines of the current agreement. ( the agreement states they must call in sick at least 2 hours before they are scheduled to work) So since you want to take the position of comparing to the previous years stats, how many in the previous year did it exactly 2 hrs 1 minute before they were scheduled to work?

[Rockie]

From what I have heard,. those pilots that booked off did it 2 hrs and 1 minute before they were scheduled to work. They did it within the confines of the current agreement. ( the agreement states they must call in sick at least 2 hours before they are scheduled to work) So since you want to take the position of comparing to the previous years stats, how many in the previous year did it exactly 2 hrs 1 minute before they were scheduled to work?

First of all what you heard about the timing of the book-offs is hearsay, not fact.

Second, there is nothing in the contract about booking off sick two hours before scheduled time to work. This is what it says:

"When a pilot anticipates that he may not be available for duty, it is necessary that Crew Scheduling be informed as early as possible."

You book off when you're sick, even if you happen to be sitting in the seat just prior to pushback when you get sick.

[CID]

SeptRepair, I think you have that a little backwards. Two hours is the time that Air Canada strives for to alert replacement crew. If sched is less than 2 hours away, it will pretty much induce an automatic delay in departure. That's the significance of the 2 hours plus a minute. Dispatch wouldn't even bother looking for replacement crew until they imposed a delay on the flight.

Regardless, still diabolical, unprofessional and abhorrent.

[Rockie]

Regardless, still diabolical, unprofessional and abhorrent.

And hearsay. Don't forget that.

As well dispatch is in no way responsible for crewing the planes, that's crew scheduling's job. Crew scheduling also has many options for crewing an airplane in a very short period of time. I've been literally walking to my car after a three day pairing and received a call from them asking if I could immediately do a flight somewhere else to return the next day. I'm usually happy to help as I was that day, but the enthusiasm is somewhat tarnished lately.

[CID]

As well dispatch is in no way responsible for crewing the planes, that's crew scheduling's job.

Po-TAY-toh, po-TAH-toh.

And hearsay. Don't forget that.

Keep telling yourself that it was all just a coincidence. You may actually start believing it sincerely.

[Rockie]

Po-TAY-toh, po-TAH-toh.

Call it what you like, but they are two separate departments with vastly different responsibilities. Anybody who knows the first thing about Air Canada would know that, which gives this:

Quote:
And hearsay. Don't forget that.


Keep telling yourself that it was all just a coincidence. You may actually start believing it sincerely.

All the credibility it deserves...meaning zero.

[Colonel Sanders]

Rockie: are you going to now tell us that this didn't happen, either?

The union representing Air Canada’s ground crew claimed Friday that a wildcat strike was sparked after three workers were suspended for “slow clapping” federal labour minister Lisa Raitt at Toronto’s Pearson Airport and sarcastically telling her she was doing a “great job.”

Late Thursday night about 150 ground crew workers walked off the job in Toronto, but by Friday morning the labour action had spread to Montreal and Quebec City.

In any case, flights were cancelled and delayed. I feel bad for anyone unfortunate enough to try to fly AC today. Next time they have to fly, one wonders what airline they will choose.

[Rockie]

Why would I say it didn't happen Hedley when clearly it did. That's the difference between fact and innuendo and inaccurate media reporting. Given your well known low opinion of the media, especially the CBC, I'm surprised you're so ready to believe them this time.

[azimuthaviation]

Given your well known low opinion of the media, especially the CBC, I'm surprised you're so ready to believe them this time.

Thats only because the National Post concurred

[Colonel Sanders]

Why would I say it didn't happen Hedley when clearly it did

I thought that's what we were discussing, these last few pages?

the National Post concurred

AA has a point - when the CBC (on the nominal left) and the National
Post (on the nominal right) both report the same story, it's still a long
shot but perhaps there is some truth to it.

The partisan spin that the media imparts to stories is amusing, but I
don't see a lot of anti-union sentiment at the CBC. However it's
certainly possible as I don't pay it enough attention to notice.

[Rockie]

The company's own records show that no more people were booked off last weekend than the same weekend the year before. An inconvenient, documented and verifiable fact you seem to willingly overlook Hedley. You would rather blindly accept the company's version of the truth despite the obviously extenuating circumstances that effected every airline equally. You can't seem to grasp that flights the press and the company include in their count aren't even operated by Air Canada.

Like the saying goes, don't let facts get in the way.

[TheSuit]

This whole Aveos safety card is nothing but xenophobic bullsh*t. If you don't like Latin Americas work, send them back your Embraers.