Walk Away

[Raymond Hall]

Here a some more facts...

1. The judicial review of the July, 2011 Tribunal BFOR decision re Vilven and Kelly will be heard by the Federal Court in Ottawa on June 26th;

2. The judicial review of the August, 2011 Tribunal decision in Thwaites et al. will be heard sometime this fall. The three judicial reviews in that case (two BFOR JRs from Air Canada and ACPA, and one "normal age of retirement" JR from the Complainants) are to be combined with two new judicial review applications recently filed by Air Canada and ACPA in respect of the Tribunal's recent decision upholding the Thwaites Complaints on the basis of the Charter issue; a Requisition For Hearing is to be filed by Air Canada this summer, and a two to three day hearing will likely take place in September or October, in Ottawa;

3. The Tribunal has set down four weeks of hearing dates in October through December for the remedy hearing of the Thwaites complaints (70 pilots); the Complainants are seeking reinstatement and/or compensation using a process similar to the process followed by the Tribunal in the Vilven-Kelly reinstatement hearing that took place in 2010;

4. The Complaints of the next 89 pilots (after Thwaites) have been put on hold pending the outcome of one or more of the pending court decisions; the CHRC has referred several additional pilot complaints to the Tribunal and there are about a dozen or so more pilots with complaints still in the works at the Commission, with more added each month; and

5. The Federal Court of Appeal has still not rendered its decision on the appeal of the Federal Court decision upholding the Tribunal's finding that the mandatory retirement exemption in the Canadian Human Rights Act is in violation of the Charter. The hearing was held last November and the decision is expected very, very soon. Regardless of which way the decision goes, there is a high probability that the unsuccessful party or parties will seek leave to appeal the decision to the Supreme Court of Canada.

[CanadianEh]

Wow, just the fact that Ms. Stedman felt this need to clarify these "inaccuracies" on AvCanada shows how desperate they are. Looks like propaganda from where I'm standing... "Oh, it's really not that bad here, even though you will take a major pay cut and we are desperately trying to outsource your jobs" Maybe Air Canada should focus on retention rather than recruitment and negotiate in good faith with one of their most vital employee groups.

[bcflyer]

Some of you idiots are unbelievable. Dave P comes on the Westjet forum to answer questions and dispell rumours and he's praised for doing it. (Not slamming Dave, just using him as an example) Jennifer from AC (whom I have dealt with before and is a very nice person) does the same thing and she gets shot down immediately.

Give your heads a shake guys. Why would she come on here and blow sunshine up your asses? Air Canada has no shortage of applicants. If you don't wamt the job, don't apply. Simple. I've worked in quite a few different parts of the industry and I can tell you that even with all the crap going on right now its still the best job I've had.

Thank you Jennifer for your post. My apologies for the poor reception you received.

[Been there before]

"Oh, it's really not that bad here, even though you will take a major pay cut and we are desperately trying to outsource your jobs" Maybe Air Canada should focus on retention rather than recruitment and negotiate in good faith with one of their most vital employee groups.

It will remain that way until the gap between our competition, mainly Westjet, and us narrows. It's not anyody's fault, but it is everybody's fault. Our survival depends on being competitive. There will be no outsourcing if we make those changes. Scope is irrelevant if we are competitive. I agree with bcflyer. It's still the best job in the country. But the cost structure is too high, and that must change.

[yycflyguy]

A couple of questions from an "unbelievable idiot" for you bcflyer:

Comparing DaveP (an active, multiple poster who has had valuable information to share) from a company where management works with their employees vs someone who has 1 post and identity is unconfirmed is an unfair comparison, no?

Don't you agree with CanadianEh that since hiring re-commenced in November of 2010 it is strange that now someone from the hiring department wants to clarify posts/rumours?

How do you think arbitrator Stanley's selection will affect hiring and your future?

If she is who she says she is, she shouldn't have a problem answering the questions I posed as they are questions I hear all the time.

Signed;
yycflyguy "King of Air Canada"... see I can give myself a title too... maybe I don't even work there.

[whipline]

Interesting. I just flew with a pilot who turned down AC. He must have been the one Jennifer was referring to.

[Lateralus]

Interesting. I just flew with a pilot who turned down AC. He must have been the one Jennifer was referring to.

Yup I also know someone who turned the job down recently.....

[startno2]

Im sure there are no pilots out there saving face by saying they turned ac down, cause pilots aren't egotistical at all.

[bcflyer]

A couple of questions from an "unbelievable idiot" for you bcflyer:

Comparing DaveP (an active, multiple poster who has had valuable information to share) from a company where management works with their employees vs someone who has 1 post and identity is unconfirmed is an unfair comparison, no?

Don't you agree with CanadianEh that since hiring re-commenced in November of 2010 it is strange that now someone from the hiring department wants to clarify posts/rumours?

How do you think arbitrator Stanley's selection will affect hiring and your future?

If she is who she says she is, she shouldn't have a problem answering the questions I posed as they are questions I hear all the time.
Signed;
yycflyguy "King of Air Canada"... see I can give myself a title too... maybe I don't even work there.

My comparison still stands. Even Dave was a first time poster at one time and yet nobody jumped all over him during his first few posts. In fact it was the exact opposite. There is also no difference between Jennifer saying nobody is turning down AC and other posters saying they are. Its a case of I said, you said, played on an anonymous forum. What makes the posters who say they "know someone" who has turned down AC any more credible? Their post count?

As for your question about how the arbitrators decision will affect hiring: Nobody has seen either FOS (they haven't even been presented yet) and nobody knows for sure which one Stanley will choose. PLease enlighten us with your infinite wisdom how anyone could possibly know the effect of an unseen, unwritten contract on future hiring.....

[whipline]

Im sure there are no pilots out there saving face by saying they turned ac down, cause pilots aren't egotistical at all.

If my choice is to believe someone I've flown with for several years or a one time poster on avcanada you can imagine which one I'm going with.

[yycflyguy]

Infinite wisdom. Good one.

I have been paying attention at the GCM's, reading the newsletters and speaking directly to union officials. They all say the same thing. The FTA is the benchmark. It is now a game of horeshoes to see who submits something that is close to it. Did you miss the MEC chair quote that said "even if we win; we lose". It is a total sham process. Is it really that dark in BC?

Now look at what the FTA offered. Huge productivity gains for the corporation to make it look like there was a pay raise. In my infinite wisdom I don't view working more hours to get paid more as a pay raise.

More to the heart of this thread, what will it mean to those recently hired or looking to get hired? In my wisdom, when there is productivity gains there doesn't need to be as many bodies to operate the aircraft.

I too stand by what I have been told directly by people who have nothing to gain by lying to me.

... at least I went from "unbelievable idiot" to having "infinite wisdom" in the same thread!! Yay me!

[chatman]

They might have a tough time in the future to recruit aircraft mechanics after Air Canada shafted over 2000 employees.

[Stu Pidasso]

Boycot the entire charade.

The fix is in between the Feds and the Corp, let the Company and the Arb stare at each other - he can pick the Companies Contract proposal.

The Company and the Government will then have to force it down our throats.

We hold the line and best of luck with implementation.

....have a nice day, thanks for all you do!

After all, come on, that little 777 thing the other day to Narita. Those things just land themselves...right?

From a group of 3000 Pilots, that earn less money today than they did 12 years ago.

In raw dollars not adjusted for Inflation.

[chatman]

And the 319 that emergency landed in Winnipeg which supposedly just came out of a 3rd party MRO.

[Johnny767]

It will remain that way until the gap between our competition, mainly Westjet, and us narrows. It's not anyody's fault, but it is everybody's fault. Our survival depends on being competitive. There will be no outsourcing if we make those changes. Scope is irrelevant if we are competitive. I agree with bcflyer. It's still the best job in the country. But the cost structure is too high, and that must change.

I completely agree, unfortunately, the Airline has made no attempt to get the uncompetitive groups inline. Instead they have made the conscience choice to take a major run at the Pilots.

As it stands the Pilots and the AME's are the ONLY two groups that are competitive with WJ. However, it looks like that isn't good enough and they want more?

All the while it is perfectly okay to be a Baggie, F/A, Ticket Clerk or Office Monkey (we have a few thousand of them) and make substantially more than your counterpart at WJ.

[TheStig]

Jennifer,
Thank you for taking the time to come on here to dispel rumours.

To those reading this forum, if you don't want to believe what the Manager of Pilot Recruitment has to offer to this discussion then don't. I'm sure if it was up to her, the pilots contract would be the envy of the industry as her job would become a lot easier. From what I've observed, Air Canadas' newest pilots are first-rate individuals but it isn't hard to see that the experience level required to get your foot in the door for an interview isn't as high as it was a few years ago and certainly not where it was in the late 90's.

Most of the new pilots I've met are somewhat concerned about the current state of management/pilot relations. I'm sure this has deterred more than a few from applying in the first place.

[ikarus]

All the while it is perfectly okay to be a Baggie, F/A, Ticket Clerk or Office Monkey (we have a few thousand of them) and make substantially more than your counterpart at WJ.

Not trying to break away this thread, but why does everyone assume that folks at Westjet are substantially underpaid compared to AC ground staff??

I have personally spoke to one of their gate agents (10+ seniority) who told me as I was waiting for my standby seat on WJ, that he made just over 60K/year with over time in 2011!! Now, how is that substantially lower from what an AC agent makes (who currently tops at $25/hr). Not too mention that AC has a lot of junior agents who are on B scale at started at 10.75/hr and only top out to $19/hr in 8 years time. And not too mention that AC constantly hires (and fires) every summer and Christmas temporary agents who only make the starting wage with no benefits and get no guarantee of full time employment.

That's just sales agents....I don't have the exact numbers for ramp guys, or mechanics, maintenance or f/a's but this website is a pretty good indication of what folks there earn. Check out both pages of this website http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/WestJet ... E11925.htm

My point is, it's not the salaries that are killing AC, it is their inefficient management, coupled with unaccountability when it comes to costs and expenses as well the odd lazy employee who is leaching off the company, protected by a strong union contract.

continue on.....and just my 2 cents on the HR lady coming over to Avcanada....I'm surprised that she would be 'wasting' her time here, but nevertheless, her comments are appreciated. However it is for you to decided if you will put your faith in them.

[Johnny767]

Interesting post, Ikarus, very true statement:

My point is, it's not the salaries that are killing AC, it is their inefficient management, coupled with unaccountability when it comes to costs and expenses as well the odd lazy employee who is leaching off the company, protected by a strong union contract.

A little odd that the agent offers up their T4, as you check in on standby? Not that it matters but, how much overtime do you have to work to hit 60K?

On balance our Agents certainly out earn WJ's, we have a large number of very Senior Staff.

The Ramp is a glaring example, since WJ outsources theirs. You don't have the wages and DB Pension that a Ramp worker makes here.

Blows holes in the old adage "you get what you pay for." I don't see WJ AC waiting to be marshaled, while the Ramp guy shuffles his feet at a snail’s pace. Not to mention we must be a world leader in lost luggage. We all know, and appreciate, that we get far superior service in cabin cleaning and ramp / luggage service anywhere else on the globe, than we do in Canada.

Pretty sorry commentary; see above statement - zero accountability.

Now we have the new "B Priority" where the Gate Support minion travels Standby ahead of the Captain of AC 001. The Boeing 777 whose engine came apart and all 3 Pilots did (their job) meticulously and got over 300 passengers and crew safely on the ground.

Another very conscience, deliberate and calculated shot.

[mbav8r]

So now there's a "B" priority, where a manager of sharpening pencils will board with say 5 years service ahead of a Capatain with 30 years service! I could take the high road here and say, It's deplorable that the company would make one group more important than another, but I WON'T. I'm extremely happy that you get a taste of your own medicine, afterall it was you, the pilot group who demanded, we at Jazz should be a lower priority. Now that I've had a taste of it, I only wish there were more managers in the B group then there are, Karma is a real bitch! Enjoy!

[Johnny767]

So now there's a "B" priority, where a manager of sharpening pencils will board with say 5 years service ahead of a Capatain with 30 years service!

Close....

The "Manager of Tiddlywinks and Paper Clips" with 6 Months service.

[Rockie]

Air Canada's solution to every problem is to create/hire a manager. The trouble is that manager has no incentive to fix the problem because then their job becomes unnecessary. So what inevitably grows is a huge bureaucracy run by people more interested in protecting their job than actually doing it.

It's an excessively micro-managed, grossly bloated animal that refuses to let anybody below them on the food chain make decisions they are perfectly capable of making. That's why we have people in Winnipeg phoning world headquarters in Montreal for authorization to board an additional J-class meal. If I didn't witness that little bit of Dilbert worthy absurdity myself I never would have believed it.

However since that embarrassing incident I'm sure Air Canada hired five local managers of additional meals to ensure 24 hour coverage.

[ilovelamp]

anybody have positive news on Air Canada? I interviewed there recently and all Ive been hearing is doom and gloom.

[Rockie]

anybody have positive news on Air Canada?

Believe me the much embattled employees (excuse me...cost units) have been desperately searching for a ray of sunlight for some time now. When we find one you'll know about it too.

[bcflyer]

I'm extremely happy that you get a taste of your own medicine, afterall it was you, the pilot group who demanded, we at Jazz should be a lower priority. Now that I've had a taste of it, I only wish there were more managers in the B group then there are, Karma is a real bitch! Enjoy!

I only wish we had that kind of pull at AC. We can't even get a crew meal boarded without calling Montreal. Do you really think the company changed the pass priority because we "demanded" it? Perhaps I missed it, but I never saw a single memo, vote, poll or even a mention of this "demand"from our union.

Can you please show it to us?

[Johnny767]

anybody have positive news on Air Canada?

Believe me the much embattled employees (excuse me...cost units) have been desperately searching for a ray of sunlight for some time now. When we find one you'll know about it too.

Thanks for the laugh.

For the non-Pilots here, we were recently informed by one of our Senior Executives that Pilots are; "JUST ANOTHER COST UNIT, that needs to be reduced."

So, as AC 001 was throwing molten metal out the engine, over the freeways of Toronto, "JUST ANOTHER COST UNITS" were busy saving the Aircraft and the people.

For $37,000 / year you too can come join the fun and be a "Cost Unit, that needs to be reduced."

Maybe a guy should amend the PA, from "This is your Captain," to "This is your Cost Unit?"