Hiring Instructors

[Beefitarian]

The point I'm trying to get across is for doing a risky and highly skilled technical job they dont deserve to be paid an average wage of $8 an hour! (10 hours spent at the airport and get paid for 3)

I bet a school doing that to instructors is also trying to get as many students as they can to put money on account before moving to another place with a new name.

Guys running that sort of operation are probably in dire need of a good sack beating!

You have to realize, Beef, that most flight training schools in Canada operate this way. At least the poor pay part. It's typical to be paid only when flying, no benefits at all, pay for your own checkouts, maps and equipment. I don't know about the money on account thing.

In this area it would only take a couple of months to starve out a person at $8 per hour even getting 40 hours per week. I'm fairly certain no FTU around here is paying instructors that low and pocketing the other $52.

You might not get full time hours every day but the rate simply has to be over $20/hour or no one could afford to do it near here.

You could not live in a van down by the river on $50 per day here. Even if you own the van outright.

[Shiny Side Up]

In this area it would only take a couple of months to starve out a person at $8 per hour even getting 40 hours per week. I'm fairly certain no FTU around here is paying instructors that low and pocketing the other $52.

What they're referring to Beef is that if you averaged out all the time that the instructor spends at the school over their pay which only comes from flying that it works out to be somewhere around (or less than) minimum wage. Lord know that there is a lot fo unpaid time that goes towards students, that in general is expected of schools and instructors. Some schools puprosefully encourage it, but some don't. Both are to blame often. I know plenty enough instructors who are out there giving it away for free (one of my beefs again with some freelancers I know, but not exclusive to them). I had thought I'd seen everything though until last year I had actually encountered an instructor who was effectively paying his students to fly with him. You can imagine that this didn't win him any favours with his fellows. His scheme involved purchasing gift certificates from the school and then giving them out to prospective students under the agreement that they would come fly with him. He figured he was drumming up some good business, but in reality he was shooting himself in the foot. Its hard to get into business as a whore after all when you've made yourself a reputation as being a slut - excuse the crude metaphor. I don't think he learned from it, but the school, when they caught on, put an end to it. Tough to explain to the customers why the service ain't given out just out of the goodness of their hearts.

Suffice to say, there's a lot of unsavory characters in the flight training world, on both sides of the coin. Something to remember again that even in the low end task of flight training, there's someone out there willing to do your job for less.

[Beefitarian]

I'm sure there are many. I hope it's not "most."

[bluenote]

Well I see you guys want to know what happend.

First and foremost I would like to thank the Chief flight instructor at Spectrum Airways Mr. Phil Brasher for being the first and hopefully not the last cfi that gave me my first flight instructing job and I am grateful for the opportunity, thank you Mr. Brasher.

When I was first hired I already was and still is employed somewhere else working a full time job with the flexibility of changing my shifts and Mr. Brasher made it very clear that this is a full time position working weekends. I of course being excited on getting my first instructing job in over 2 years tried really hard to make it work and for the first 3 weeks or so during my probation I was there on weekends and any other day that I could make it.

Obviously I could not fulfill my side of the scheduling obligation so therefore I did not meet spectrum airways's contract obligation, totally agree. So due to my unavailablity I agree on their decision.

Having obligation to fullfill as a father and spouse to a family at home I also could not at this time sit around all day and not get paid waiting for that fam flight or first student.

Guys and gals, I am in my late 40's looking for a permanent flight instructing job and my intention is to find a flight school where I can still put in 5 days a week but can't commit to steady weekends due to my other job. I want to offer quality flight instruction not quantity and looking to be the best instructor that I can be.

I realize all these years I was the student and haven't seen the instructing side of this business and it is sad to see how much we get paid for what we do.

I hope to find another instructing job soon and meet a person like Mr. Brasher that will give me an opportunity. I just want to instruct , not looking to fill my log book and move on to bigger and better things which again there is nothing wrong with that as most instructors today are only there on a temporary gig and move on, well I am not. I am here to be a permanent instructor.

So, guys I lost the job due to my inability to fullfill their scheduling and I agree with their decision.

thanks for reading.

[Beefitarian]

I must be all messed up bluenote. The way I read that, you could not work full time but you want a full time instructor job. What am I mixing up here?

[Colonel Sanders]

Re: flight instructors working for starvation wages - or even paying to instruct

This appears insane but makes sense - and will never change - once you understand 2 things

1) 99 percent of flight instructors do it only to build hours and will on as fast as they can

2) Flight instructors are compensated in 2 ways -

(A) hours in their logbook, and
(B) starvation wages

It all depends what the flight instructors think an hour in their logbook is worth. If they think it is valuable enough, the starvation wage in (B) above can be zero or even negative.

Blame the FTU's if you want, but the low-time flight instructors desperate for hours are the problem.

If instructors were required to have 1000 hours people would get better flight instruction and flight instructors would get paid decently because they wouldn't be doing it for the hours.

But that will never change, because the FTUs want the free flight instruction, the low-time instructors want the hours, and the students want subsidized flight instruction.

All of you deserve each other, so enjoy your Walmart flight training.

[DanWEC]

Sorry to hear that Bluenote. I concur that Phil is a good person, from my limited knowledge of my PPL ride with him 5 years back, and at least you got a taste of actual instructing.

The way I see it, am I correct in assuming that you couldn't afford to quit your day job in order to instruct full time on entry level wages? If you're the provider, then the family and spouse, they must come first. It's a tough go, no matter how you look at it. It will take some serious financial juggling to make it through the first few years. There doesn't seem to be any solution except making a sacrifice, hopefully only a temporary one. It's been done though, and while I can only make assumptions, I'd assume you'd need to plan ahead financially for several years to build a big fat buffer. That's what I did before switching careers, and wouldn't still be solvent if I hadn't.
I went from a salary with a few extra zeros in Toronto and living in a waterfront condo to living in my parents basement, and soon to be living in my wife's parents basement while I (hopefully) instruct in Ottawa. And that's the best case scenario! Couldn't be happier though. Waiting on kids for several years for this reason.

Best of luck, aviation is like an ancient cult religion, where you must offer up your wife and kids to the gods and hope for their mercy.
To paraphrase George Carlin- The aviation gods NEED MONEY!

You can do it, it will just be anything but easy at first. I'm sure you don't need to hear it from me, but my perspective is you'll have to decide how badly you want it, look 5 years down the road and reverse engineer what you have to do to get there.
Cheers,

DWEC

[bluenote]

Sorry to hear that Bluenote. I concur that Phil is a good person, from my limited knowledge of my PPL ride with him 5 years back, and at least you got a taste of actual instructing.

The way I see it, am I correct in assuming that you couldn't afford to quit your day job in order to instruct full time on entry level wages? If you're the provider, then the family and spouse, they must come first. It's a tough go, no matter how you look at it. It will take some serious financial juggling to make it through the first few years. There doesn't seem to be any solution except making a sacrifice, hopefully only a temporary one. It's been done though, and while I can only make assumptions, I'd assume you'd need to plan ahead financially for several years to build a big fat buffer. That's what I did before switching careers, and wouldn't still be solvent if I hadn't.
I went from a salary with a few extra zeros in Toronto and living in a waterfront condo to living in my parents basement, and soon to be living in my wife's parents basement while I (hopefully) instruct in Ottawa. And that's the best case scenario! Couldn't be happier though. Waiting on kids for several years for this reason.

Best of luck, aviation is like an ancient cult religion, where you must offer up your wife and kids to the gods and hope for their mercy.
To paraphrase George Carlin- The aviation gods NEED MONEY!

You can do it, it will just be anything but easy at first. I'm sure you don't need to hear it from me, but my perspective is you'll have to decide how badly you want it, look 5 years down the road and reverse engineer what you have to do to get there.
Cheers,

DWEC

Thank you for the kind words DWEC, much appreciated.

Yes, Phil at Spectrum is a very kind and understanding person and great aviator and again thank you for giving me the opportunity.

I really did not have the full spectrum of knowledge when it comes to being a flight instructor and hearing and reading on how instructors get treated and paid and it is too bad.

My goal is to one day like 5 years down the road for me to hope to achieve a class 2 or class 1 flight instructor rating and to continue to offer quality flight instruction to the public out there. I don't have an issue working full time it was just I had to be there every weekend every weekend and with the other job that was not possible.

Very soon I can retire from my other full time job which again my shifts are flexible and I want to do flight instructing on a full time only basis and enjoy the 'flight instructing' part of this business and have a blast doing it.

So, here I go again out on the road and drop off resumes to the same places where they all know me by my first name because some of these schools told me half of their resume pile consists of mine LOL, so trekking I will go.

bluenote

[CpnCrunch]

Maybe you should work for a larger FTU, like Calgary Flying Club, that might be more flexible in terms of scheduling. A busy school would also be better in terms of getting fully booked on the days you are working (rather than sitting around all day not earning anything!) Also they would tend to have a larger turnover of instructors so they would always be looking for fresh blood. Good luck!

[bluenote]

Maybe you should work for a larger FTU, like Calgary Flying Club, that might be more flexible in terms of scheduling. A busy school would also be better in terms of getting fully booked on the days you are working (rather than sitting around all day not earning anything!) Also they would tend to have a larger turnover of instructors so they would always be looking for fresh blood. Good luck!

I agree CpnCrunch,

working for a large school that is affiliated with international students and/or university-college will work best for me or a small school that needs a part timer.

[Shiny Side Up]

My goal is to one day like 5 years down the road for me to hope to achieve a class 2 or class 1 flight instructor rating and to continue to offer quality flight instruction to the public out there. I don't have an issue working full time it was just I had to be there every weekend every weekend and with the other job that was not possible.

If you can't work weekends your goal is going to take a lot longer than 5 years. To be a successful instructor you have to get used to the idea that you have to be available when your students want you - at least until you've built yourself a decent reputation and customer base. Your business is largely viewed as a a "fun" activity by a large majority of your customers, so you need to be available when they are on their off time. That means a lot of weekends, evenings during the summer and early morings. Flight instructing isn't a nine to five job - but a lot of instructors approach it that way, or shall I say are attracted to it because they percieve it that way. You have the work problems of both a salesman and a farmer.

Its unfortunate that you couldn't have stuck it out through a summer, by August you might have been a lot farther along. But one thing you have to do is be honest with yourself that your dreams of instructing isn't a priority for you, so take full responsibility for your predicament.

If instructors were required to have 1000 hours people would get better flight instruction and flight instructors would get paid decently because they wouldn't be doing it for the hours.

No, that would only make it again so that we'd have desperate thousand hour instructors, doing it for cheap so they could meet some sort of hiring requirements. We's have guys who pay for all the time building up to that point, making for more desperate low time pilots, with no hope of employment. The problem would only be shifted. What we need is to have a more educated and choosy consumer base that prizes quality of flight training. We need a system that rates skill building over time building. We need a means of enabling flight training providers to foster healthy competition rather than a race to the bottom line.

[Colonel Sanders]

SSU: you missed my point.

Replace 1000 hrs with 10,000 hrs. The actual number is unimportant, but needs to be high enough that no one would view flight instruction merely as a way to build time until they can get into the right seat of a twin.

This would have the added bonus of having experienced pilots teaching the newbies.

If you take rotary wing instruction in something hairy like an R22 I guarantee you that your instructor will have more than 200 hrs, or you both will be quite dead quite soon. See the robbie SFAR.

[Cat Driver]

If you take rotary wing instruction in something hairy like an R22 I guarantee you that your instructor will have more than 200 hrs, or you both will be quite dead quite soon. See the robbie SFAR.

[Shiny Side Up]

SSU: you missed my point.

Replace 1000 hrs with 10,000 hrs. The actual number is unimportant, but needs to be high enough that no one would view flight instruction merely as a way to build time until they can get into the right seat of a twin.

This would have the added bonus of having experienced pilots teaching the newbies.

No I get the point, it would just create more problems than it would solve. If we placed all instruction at the top level of the pilot pyramid first it would just crush general aviation out of existance due to its costs, and second there would be still way too few pilots to do enough training as necessary for the system to work. So somewhere in that range of hour requirements to instruct there might be a magic number that is going to weed out all those but the most dedicated of those who desire to instruct, but still maintain enough instructors so that the skill of pilot doesn't go the way of the typesetter. It forgets how that at the end of the day the bottom line is that aviation has to be still acceptable to the consumer or it won't happen. As well, we still draw pilot candidates from the geneal public, and I certainly can't see having a Cat Driver put up with the demand for his services.

That's not to say that instructors shouldn't have more experience, but I'm saying that a pure hour requirement just isn't the way to go. After all, just because someone has ten thousand hours, I don't want him teaching me something he's only done twice before, ten years ago. As an example who would you want teaching you a float rating: a guy with 10,000 hours but only fifty hours on floats, or a guy with 600 hours and 400 of that on floats? The point is that flight training should have a venue to offer more specialization and the industry should be able to reward it. After all, why isn't there more of a market in this country for say a "Cat Driver's Ultimate Husky Flying Course" or similar offerings? There definitely should be, but there isn't because the system doesn't encourage it.

We need people to seek higher quality flight training rather than higher quantity. After all, if we follow bluenote's story:

working for a large school that is affiliated with international students and/or university-college will work best for me

We'll find that he'll be finding that such a wish is going result in him not being able to give out the quality he wishes, though he'll probably have to find that out the hard way.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Personally I think the basic PPL "license to learn" doesn't need a hugely experienced instructor, a decent 300 hr Class 4 with good supervision by the CFI can do just fine. What is missing in the flight training world is good commercial and IFR training. This is where the 300 hour Class 4 for the CPL or the Class 1 with 7 hours of IMC time teaching night instruments, just isn't good enough.

If you needed 1000 hrs PIC to teach the CPL, 100 hours ME PIC to teach the Multi rating, and 200 hours of ME IFR to teach the IFR course then then the pay would instantly move to a reasonable level. The local school charges 335 hr for the twin and pays the instructors in the low $20 per hour. Up the pay to $60 an hour and the rate would go from 335 to 380ish (to include the higher CPP/EI contributions) a 12 % increase. Would that that kill the industry or become the new normal ? I think folks would pay up, and get better training, like it or not.

But this could only exist in a situation where high qualifications where mandatory and thus will by definition force the schools to compete with the King Air operators and the like for talent.

It is a nice fantasy but the chance of change is virtually zero, especially now as TC is running away from GA operations in general and flight training in particular.

[trey kule]

I have a simple question. Why would any FTU pay their instructors great salaries when there are all sorts of eager instructors lining up at the door to work for practically nothing?

I do not recall any FTU ever charging less for a class 4, or 3. They are the big profit makers for the company. And if you are a real sleaze bag FTU, you can even hit your students up to pay for the flight checks on the class 4.

It simply does not make any sense to pay instructors more money until instructors themselves start getting some self respect and not taking jobs that require you to work an 80 hour week, but get paid for 25 ....

Unless TC starts changing the requirements, dont expect any changes in instructor pay.

[Colonel Sanders]

TC isn't about to change the regs to increase the instructor experience requirments - I can hear ATAC howling from here already.

The only hope for instructors is forming a union or cartel to control the price, to protect them from their worst enemy - themselves.

That's about as likely to happen as me being the next Queen of England. Not impossible, just very very unlikely!

[bluenote]

So my guess is reading the posts from the guys that have been around and this discussion of flight instructing , guys like me that want to do it on a permanent basis because we love to teach - being a career flight instructor or temporary or whatever the case might be sucks because you get treated like s*&t.

Can the experienced posters shed ANY positive light on being a flight instructor here in Canada, or should we just pack it in and look for something else to do.

Getting a little taste of instructing even though I didn t do alot and the pay that I have been reading from some of the other instructors which is like ridiculous it doesn t sound like it s something awesome to do unless you love it so much.

[Colonel Sanders]

Bluenote: for instructors that are only doing it to build time, yes, going around and around the circuit in a nosewheel trainer older than you are, is not much fun for not much money.

However, there are a few of us "lifetime" instructors, like me and BPF and others, that do specialty flight instruction for much better pay. And it's lots more fun!

If you are an experienced tailwheel and aerobatic and multi-engine and instrument and warbird instructor, you will not lack for customers! At least, I sure don't!

A certain amount of flexibility is required, though. None of my ex-wives thought much of my aviation career, but if you are willing to fly anything, anywhere, anytime (safely!) You will have a very interesting career! It's not for everyone, though. Lots of people show interest but few are up for the moment.

[Shiny Side Up]

However, there are a few of us "lifetime" instructors, like me and BPF and others, that do specialty flight instruction for much better pay. And it's lots more fun!

If you are an experienced tailwheel and aerobatic and multi-engine and instrument and warbird instructor, you will not lack for customers! At least, I sure don't!

The thing to remember though is that to get to that level, each one of the experienced instructors here had to still at one point work under supervision and weather through at least 3 ab initio students and another 7 if they are at the class 2 level. Its a bit of a long haul, since getting through that, for most instructors, is a long frustrating process. Taking on new ab initio students is a lot like going on a lot of blind dates, really hit and miss. I know it has turned away from the flight training world a lot of good instructors, where it becomes a point where no ammount of pay is worth doing it.

A certain amount of flexibility is required, though. None of my ex-wives thought much of my aviation career, but if you are willing to fly anything, anywhere, anytime (safely!) You will have a very interesting career! It's not for everyone, though. Lots of people show interest but few are up for the moment.

Indeed. A chief cause of AIDS I suspect, I know its been a source of friction in my own experience. The thing is, you don' get to be "the guy" that people come to for this stuff if you don't build a good reputation for yourself doing it, and a lot of that comes from the flexibility to say "sure I'll come help you do that" when you get the call. If you're in demand enough, they'll tolerate you occasionally saying "well this Saturday doesn't work, but how about the next one?" They always understand though if your reason is, "Sorry, but I already said I'd help Joe with his plane". Like has been said before, your goal as an instructor if you want to get where its good is to really be a whore about flying, you're pushing to become the highest priced, most in demand whore on the block. Remember though, you never do it for free, that's not being a whore. You will have to weather through being pimped out though.

[bluenote]

Bluenote: for instructors that are only doing it to build time, yes, going around and around the circuit in a nosewheel trainer older than you are, is not much fun for not much money.

However, there are a few of us "lifetime" instructors, like me and BPF and others, that do specialty flight instruction for much better pay. And it's lots more fun!

If you are an experienced tailwheel and aerobatic and multi-engine and instrument and warbird instructor, you will not lack for customers! At least, I sure don't!

A certain amount of flexibility is required, though. None of my ex-wives thought much of my aviation career, but if you are willing to fly anything, anywhere, anytime (safely!) You will have a very interesting career! It's not for everyone, though. Lots of people show interest but few are up for the moment.

So basically what you are saying is that until you get to become this specialized flight instructor me as a class 4 have many years of flying circuits , starving , being unappreciated and the rest of the story. So basically it sucks to be a "normal" flight instructor.
Decisions , decisions

[Shiny Side Up]

No, at the bottom end if you might only have to weather one summer. The big first step of the commitment you have to make is getting that upgrade to the class 3, then you can start working up from there. Building your reputation from there depends on how much you work on it, but it doesn't happen overnight. It ain't always going to be the dream either, Even someone of the Colonel's level, or a guy like Budd Davisson has days where they say to themselves "why the hell do I fly with students?" Other days make up for it though.

[RenegadeAV8R]

if you are willing to fly anything, anywhere, anytime (safely!) You will have a very interesting career! It's not for everyone, though. Lots of people show interest but few are up for the moment.

So basically what you are saying is that until you get to become this specialized flight instructor me as a class 4 have many years of flying circuits , starving , being unappreciated and the rest of the story. So basically it sucks to be a "normal" flight instructor.
Decisions , decisions

Your first goal has to be a class 3 instructor as soon as possible. As you already know, the class 4 is only valid one year and you are constantly under supervision. As a class 3 you can also work as a freelance instructor and this is where the most interesting work is to be found; more money to be made and also be more appreciated by your customers.

So, at the beginning you basically have to be always available for your student; 7 days a week. That way you will become a class 3 "sooner" and you will also make "more" money. ("soon" and "more" are very relative words)

My first year as a full time flight instructor was very difficult; I made myself available 7 days a week. My days off was when it was raining or snowing, but if a Preparatory Ground Instruction was planned before a flight on a day like this, I was always asking my students to come for the PGI. That way I could at least make some money on that rainy day.

It can be done, if it is really what you want to do

[trey kule]

The thing to remember though is that to get to that level, each one of the experienced instructors here had to still at one point work under supervision and weather through at least 3 ab initio students and another 7 if they are at the class 2 level.

Thats not exactly accurate..You dont need an instructor rating to do float, tailwheel, warbird, or most of the IF rating (if not all of it), but you do need to be able to instruct (ie..share the skills and knowledge), and have experience.
Part of the problem is instructors who try to teach without the experience in that area just because they have an instructor rating.

The real problem, in my opinion, is not with the general inexperience of new flight instructors, but the total lack of supervision of their work and progress with students...It does not take a rocket scientist CFI to note that if certain trends in an instructors teaching start showing up, they should be doing some remedial training...Here is a question to all the class 4s, and 3s...How much remedial training did you get from your FTU ..How many times were your PTR's reviewed by the CFI.
How many times did the CFI have a formal 15 minute sitdown with you and each of your students to discuss progress?
Unless things have changed a great deal in the industry, the answer is not much.....
Take a low time pilot. Give them basic instructor course. Certify them..then turn them loose on the students..
It used to be when pilots were taking their initial class 4 ride they would show up with power point presentations, study aids, briefing notes....all impressive...then three months later it was time for coffee and lets go fly...and during the rainy days regaling the students with all their death defying adventures..I am sure that the average 300 hour instructor has had more death defying adventures than most of us old guys in our entire career.

To put it bluntly..The problem with the system is a lack of real management and FTU's reluctance to continually monitor and train their instructors as they should.

The pay and working conditions are a different ball of wax, but I expect they do have many people leaving ASAP.

I can say, with absolute certainity that is why I did not make a career of instructing.. Despite the comments how you go round and round in the circuit as if that is pretty much the whole syllabus, I did not find that particularily mind numbing. You can see the student improve, almost literally with each circuit..Feels pretty good. Teaching someone who when they walked into the FTU could barely walk and chew gum at the same time, and then a few hours later, take a plane up on their own...also feels pretty good. Watching them get excited about their planned future is good to..Yes there were those students who were a bit troublesome...but they are not the majority.. The majority are motivated and work hard to learn if they are given the chance...

Back to topic.

[delay256]

Remedial Training? - None

Sit Downs? Only when screw ups occurred - Yes 2 hours plus at a time, The Supervisor, the student and myself talked endlessly in circles trying to cause the root cause of the problem. I didn't have an issue with this except the fact that the supervisor was on a salary and would dictate every inch of the training syllabus.

Encouragement? None what so ever even though I had a 100 % Satisfactory Flight test record with 8 recommends and all my Supervisor had to tell me after a flight test was " The PTR is not in order , he cannot be licensed until the paperwork is in order" , Fair enough but some sort of indication that you did a decent job in getting someone proficient would have been nice.

I had to pay for my own checkouts, instructor renewals, IFR renewals and parking! Many at time it use to cost me more to come to work than my bi weekly pay cheque.

Overall it was a learning experience that helped me expand my knowledge threshold and taught me a lot about myself that I didn't know before. I just wish that the owners of flight training units and class 1's and 2's supervising junior instructors take a legitimate interest in their work. (Not just when sh** hits the fan)

Instructor Union? I dont think we are there but an association of flight instructors throughout the country is desperately needed to oversee pay and working conditions and bring it to public attention that for all the risk and skill involved , such low pay is unacceptable and better solutions need to exist to see to it that instructors are compensated fairly. (I dont buy the argument that you are now getting your flight hours for free , just shut up ant teach these monkeys how to fly and soon you will be on a turbine twin) win/win? NO!