4 fatal - crash nw of Waterloo ON Aug 24 2012

[Doc]

Guys

We all agree that this is a very unfortunate incident.
There have been a few comments that the the pilot was most likely showing off and from outward appearances it may appear to be just that.
However, anything is possible, so maybe it would be better to wait to hear what the people investigating come up with before accusing anyone of anything.
A young pilot, who from all reports loved aviation as much as any of us died along with his friends the other night and there are four families grieving .
Discussing possible scenarios is natural but lets try to keep the blame factor to a minimum, we don't need family members reading about who is who is not at fault

You are correct, of course. I don't think anybody has been disrespectful. My thoughts, as are yours, are with everybody involved. Accidents like this are rather rare, (thankfully) and when they happen, pilots tend to provide various scenarios as "learning tools" to bring it to each other's attention, as a reminder not to fall into the same situation. Take care.

[Beefitarian]

Well said fleet.

Virtually always young persons of the male persuasion showing off to a friend or girlfriend. Sometimes they are super stupid & do it over a public area.

Take it back. avcanada can't have gender bias posts like that. This is the Internet, you better step up the political correctness.

... So anyways, when you get a young guy trying to show off, some things like spins with a plane outside the utility C of G are bound to happen. No one ever taught flying under a bridge but that used to happen quite a bit.

Now that intentional spins are not part of the curriculum, I highly doubt it will prevent young guys from doing steep turns and what ever else to cause the occasional spin to occur.

I hit my brother's head on the ceiling of a warrior showing him and his wife the floating pencil once. Looking back is the only way to tell how wrong that was. Fourtunately nothing worse happened but what if I had made a worse error and over stressed the wings?

I think maybe we can still point to this terrible accident as an example of how bad things in flight can turn if we are not carefull. Intentional or not.

[Doc]

What the HELL'S wrong with flying under bridges??

[fleet16b]

Again I must ask the question. Why do we teach spins? When I instructed, we did not teach spins. Where is the value here? And, don't bother filling me with BS that you teach it, so they'll recognize one. I ain't buying what you're selling. And, this isn't my first rodeo.
If that's a envelope of flight a student pilot wants to explore, there are very good aerobatic instructors out there that can teach spins etc., in an aircraft designed for the purpose. A 172, is NOT.
I greatly fear, that if spins were not part of a pilot's curriculum, these folks' sight seeing trip, would have been, just that.
We're not learning to fly in Sopwith Camels any more. There is no longer a reason to teach spins.

IMHO Doc is correct here.
The Rec Pilot course does not include spin training and we do not see all kinds of Rec pilots augering in.
Rec course teaches you to recognize what will get you into a stall/spin situation and how to avoid it happening.
Seems to work just fine
Depending on the time the instructor spends teaching spins , I suspect that the spin training in the PPL course is just enough to get you by in the Flight Test but also just enough to wet you appetite to push things a little farther once you have the license

[fleet16b]

What the HELL'S wrong with flying under bridges??

Back in the 30s- 40s my Dad and everyone else in S/Ontario use to do the bridge at Niagara Falls
He did it a few times in a Tmoth , said it was scary as hell (lots of down drafts etc ) but not enough to stop them from doing it again

[flyinthebug]

What the HELL'S wrong with flying under bridges??

Not a damn thing according to my old CP at an unnamed air service on the coast. When the fog was laying too low in the harbour and we couldnt get in over Stanley Park, we were instructed to "drive er in under the gate". Its amazing what some of us got away with over the years.

In regards to this accident... I used to be against speculation of an accident on a public forum as I felt if the family was reading it, they could be traumatized over what they read. After discussing it a bit with various forum members, I decided it is advantageous to share our stories and hopefully learn from our mistakes.

I am not suggesting that this is what happened to these 4 young people... I offered it as one of several possibilities based on my own experience. I think we ALL have done things in a plane that we shouldnt have done...and only good luck can be attributed to why it didnt bite us harder than it did.

We`ll let the TSB do their jobs and in a year or so we should find out what happened.

Fly safe all.

[126.7_STFU]

Ah yes, PDM training.
And 126.7_STFU mentioned "sometimes shit happens...." which, of course it does. Look at Air France. Of course he also mentions "common sense". THIS is the big one. Common sense. He's right. Nobody can teach it. Not even those of us with "Apollo 11 credentials...."
Oh, you can teach PDM, CRM....and any warm and fuzzy course required to justify some fat cat's employment in Ottawa, but the bottom line is, the human animal is at the base of the problem. Always has been, alway will be.
STFU got it right "you can't teach common sense..."

I hope this wasn't sarcasm and we actually agree on something!

[MrWings]

In regards to this accident... I used to be against speculation of an accident on a public forum as I felt if the family was reading it, they could be traumatized over what they read. After discussing it a bit with various forum members, I decided it is advantageous to share our stories and hopefully learn from our mistakes.

I think it's fine as long as people don't pronounce the speculation as absolute fact.

There as been talk of how dangerous it is to spin a fully loaded 172. Now this might not relate at all to this particular crash. But if the mere mention of it prevents someone from doing it in the future , it is valuable.

[Shiny Side Up]

What's worse now is that these sort of incapabilities are starting to show up in Canadian license holders, since instructors are getting more and more lax with it, unfortunately as evidenced by the above.

I'm with Doc on this. Too many instructors out there do the "hey watch this" for a student to truly benefit from a Fully Developed Spin lesson during AB-Initio. There should be more attention given to the recognize and avoid aspect of a Stall/Spin than the maneuver itself. Spinning a C172 continuously is also excessively hard on things like the gyros. Any instructor worth their salt can come up with enough stall scenarios that can potentially lead into a spin that they should have full confidence that should ever one of their former students need to exercise that skill they can recover successfully without ever needing to see one.

What you're saying is true to a point, but its where instructors need to teach the lessons better rather than the lesson should be eliminated. You're right in that a lot of students can be sufficiently warned about the dangers of the spin by enough preventitive measures, but I don't think this works for all students. Since deterining who those students are is extrordinarily time consuming, it would be better if all students were subjected to a good lesson about how spins work. you're right in that we shouldn't have ab initio students going up for spin joy rides, its hard on airplanes and misses the point of the excersise.

The point I was trying to make is that spin training isn't being done correctly in the first place in a good deal of instances, nor is the related lead up training which is supposed to help add pounds of prevention to the whole thing. Repeatedly I see not enough attention being paid to the pre circuit excersises to give new pilts a good handle on the airplane, which would keep them out of trouble later.

[Gogona]

I think we ALL have done things in a plane that we shouldnt have done...

This statement is too bold, though.
Strike out me and two of my closest flying friends + one of my CFI's. I don't dare to mention about some of my other buddies and instructors, cause I assume, they never confessed me they did something illegal or wrong.
But at least four "chickens" are here, in front of you

[Doc]

Ah yes, PDM training.
And 126.7_STFU mentioned "sometimes shit happens...." which, of course it does. Look at Air France. Of course he also mentions "common sense". THIS is the big one. Common sense. He's right. Nobody can teach it. Not even those of us with "Apollo 11 credentials...."
Oh, you can teach PDM, CRM....and any warm and fuzzy course required to justify some fat cat's employment in Ottawa, but the bottom line is, the human animal is at the base of the problem. Always has been, alway will be.
STFU got it right "you can't teach common sense..."

I hope this wasn't sarcasm and we actually agree on something!

Oh no, we for sure agree on this one. Common sense is the most uncommon of senses we possess. And you are very correct in saying it can't be taught. I don't really think it can be learned either. You either have it, or you don't. Now if a person asks himself/herself, "what shall I do that will cause the least grief?" And follows the correct answer, that's akin to common sense. But if you have to ask yourself that question......there is work to be done!
That's basically all "airmanship" is, STFU.....common sense in an aviation setting. Cheers

[CpnCrunch]

What you're saying is true to a point, but its where instructors need to teach the lessons better rather than the lesson should be eliminated. You're right in that a lot of students can be sufficiently warned about the dangers of the spin by enough preventitive measures, but I don't think this works for all students. Since deterining who those students are is extrordinarily time consuming, it would be better if all students were subjected to a good lesson about how spins work. you're right in that we shouldn't have ab initio students going up for spin joy rides, its hard on airplanes and misses the point of the excersise.

The point I was trying to make is that spin training isn't being done correctly in the first place in a good deal of instances, nor is the related lead up training which is supposed to help add pounds of prevention to the whole thing. Repeatedly I see not enough attention being paid to the pre circuit excersises to give new pilts a good handle on the airplane, which would keep them out of trouble later.

The reason the UK and USA removed spin training is simple: most spin accidents were caused during spin training!

Also, what is the point of instructors just teaching the PARE technique if it doesn't actually work with an aft C of G? Spin training is done in the utility category, but a real-life spin may be outside that.

[Gogona]

Also, what is the point of instructors just teaching the PARE technique if it doesn't actually work with an aft C of G? Spin training is done in the utility category, but a real-life spin may be outside that.

Obviously, to help those pilots, who fly in the utility category. It's even more obvious, that the majority of light aircraft flights has only one or two people aboard. Do we need to disregard this fact in our flight training, being concerned with a fully loaded plane what is actually not very common?

[CpnCrunch]

Obviously, to help those pilots, who fly in the utility category. It's even more obvious, that the majority of light aircraft flights has only one or two people aboard. Do we need to disregard this fact in our flight training, being concerned with a fully loaded plane what is actually not very common?

It may not be overly common, but the plane is certified to fly at that weight and C of G. The problem is that students are being taught they can recover from spins, they then try it with their buddies (forgetting to read the limitations in the POH) and end up very dead.

[MIQ]

I also obviously only have done the 'normal' airwork spins within the Utility Category but I'm wondering, how are you supposed to recover from a spin outside of the utility category? Let's say you're flying your Cessna 172 along with two friends and have 3/4 fuel on board. I would never intentionally spin an aircraft except for training purposes with my instructor but sometimes shit might hit the fan and you find yourself in a spin outside of utility category (remember the Seneca crash two years ago at night in IMC). I've never been told what to do in that case?

[chipmunk]

I also obviously only have done the 'normal' airwork spins within the Utility Category but I'm wondering, how are you supposed to recover from a spin outside of the utility category? Let's say you're flying your Cessna 172 along with two friends and have 3/4 fuel on board. I would never intentionally spin an aircraft except for training purposes with my instructor but sometimes shit might hit the fan and you find yourself in a spin outside of utility category (remember the Seneca crash two years ago at night in IMC). I've never been told what to do in that case?

Get the C of G as far forward as possible... i.e. haul your 200lb rear pax into the front. See Rowdy's (I think it was his) post on one of the earlier pages of this thread.

SERIOUSLY, though, don't get yourself in that shit hitting the fan situation - the whole point of PPL training these days is stall/spin avoidance. Avoid the stall, you'll avoid the spin. Recognize the signs of slow flight and avoid a stall. You only should intentionally enter slow flight (other than what the aircraft may go through in the landing flare) and stalls during TRAINING - i.e. with no pax on board... it's not a "trick" to show off.

(For what it's worth - in larger aircraft (even, say, a Cessna Caravan), you RARELY if ever, do real full stalls in training... only approach-to-stalls, recovering at the stick shaker, stall horn, buffet... whatever comes first. Recognize and avoid...)

My condolences to the families and friends of these folks involved, and to the folks at WWFC. Hard stuff to go through.

[Shiny Side Up]

The problem is that students are being taught they can recover from spins,

This is where often the lesson is being taught incorrectly. Part of it should be a long discussion on how while we're going to train you so you know what it looks like and a recovery technique, Heaven forbid you get into one by accident, they are to avoided in the course of all normal flight parameters since its possible that recovery may be considerably more difficult, or impossible, than what they will see in the utility category spin. Lots of discussion should be had about the most probable causes of accidental spins and where they happen.

Does no one else get the talking to about spins? Especially when it comes to restirctions on solo practice? Mine runs along the lines of "If I catch you doing spins ever in one of my rental airplanes without my explicit permission I will beat you to death with your own shoes."

Now that said, people shouldn't be just scared shitless of the things either, but the appropriate ammount of gravity should be taken with the subject. The airplane ain't a toy to be out just f#cking around with out there, especially not with passengers.

[Doc]

The reason the UK and USA removed spin training is simple: most spin accidents were caused during spin training!

.

This in itself is pretty telling. But, good old Transport Canada knows best? BS!!! They've finally removed the full inflight engine shut down from the training syllabus for multi training, perhaps they'll pull their heads out of their asses on spin training as well. Or, haven't we killed enough pilots yet, TC???

I liked fleet16b's comment about not doing spin training for the Rec Licence, and nobody's spinning in. Wake up people, spin training is dangerous.....and it teaches nothing!

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. If you want to learn to spin, go fly with the Colonel!

[Doc]

The guys who worry me most, are the instructors who advocate FOR spin training. Have these guys actually been "trained" themselves? Do these pilots have aerobatic backgrounds?

Shiny Side Up, you're obviously an instructor. Who trained you to spin, and in what?

If I owned an airplane, and somebody spun it, I'd have the wings pulled and a full inspection would follow....and the jerk who spun it would get the bill. These airplanes are NOT designed to spin.
Why don't FTU's grow a pair, and stick up to Transport Canada over the wear and tear this BS puts on their airframes?

In theory, a "proper" spin wont hurt an airframe. Or so I'm told. BUT what about all the spins that turn into spirals and the ham fisted yoyo in the front seat over-stresses it on the pull out? Next poor slob gets to fly a damaged airplane. You guys (FTU's) have to be able to sell that??

[Gogona]

The problem is that students are being taught they can recover from spins, they then try it with their buddies (forgetting to read the limitations in the POH) and end up very dead.

forgetting to read the limitations in the POH - and here is the clue

Believe it or not, but I'm in the same boat with them.
First, I was NEVER told about all that stuff during my study, although I have had two different schools and bunch of various instructors.
Second, I always fly with the only one passenger in the right seat (or solo), so if one day I flew in the normal category, I can guarantee, I would forget that I have no chance for spin recovery this time

So I'm lucky just because I don't fly in the normal category and I also can't imagine myself doing intentional spins even being alone. But do I have some gaps in my flight training? Definitely YES!

And here is my point – I believe, we DO NEED to continue the spin recovery exercises, but all these things we have mentioned above should be HAMMERED into the students. Not only reminded on the flight safety seminars, currency checks or commercial flight training later on...

[lilflyboy262]

How often do you see aircraft in other parts of the world such as New Zealand or Australia spinning into the earth because they do not know how to recover from a spin?
Spin training is only taught in the instructors course.

Stalling, both prevention and recovery is a massive part of the syllabus down there.

You have a ton of warning before a spin. You do not just enter a spin. Prevention is better than cure.

[Doc]

And here is my point – I believe, we DO NEED to continue the spin recovery exercises, but all these things we have mentioned above should be HAMMERED into the students. Not only reminded on the flight safety seminars, currency checks or commercial flight training later on...

The problem is NOT that recovery is not HAMMERED into students. The problem IS that you spin at all!
Seriously, in more than 25000 hours of flying I have NEVER been anywhere NEAR a accidental stall, let alone a spin! EVER! It's NOT the big "boggy man" you instructor seems to think it is. There is NOT a stall spin lurking around every corner waiting to snap up your unsuspecting ass. What's your background? Are you a piss poor enough pilot that you get yourself into spins on a regular basis? Most aren't. The Americans don't have anywhere near the stall spin accidents we do. They don't teach it. We do. Do the math. The ONLY time you should be spinning an aircraft, is with a qualified aerobatic instructor in an aircraft designed to do so.
WHY don't some of you people get this? You like seeing folks die? I don't. But, that's what's happening. The evidence is overwhelmingly on my side. Lets put an end to spin training.

[Trematode]

The problem is NOT that recovery is not HAMMERED into students. The problem IS that you spin at all!
Seriously, in more than 25000 hours of flying I have NEVER been anywhere NEAR a accidental stall, let alone a spin! EVER! It's NOT the big "boggy man" you instructor seems to think it is. There is NOT a stall spin lurking around every corner waiting to snap up your unsuspecting ass. What's your background? Are you a piss poor enough pilot that you get yourself into spins on a regular basis? Most aren't. The Americans don't have anywhere near the stall spin accidents we do. They don't teach it. We do. Do the math. The ONLY time you should be spinning an aircraft, is with a qualified aerobatic instructor in an aircraft designed to do so.
WHY don't some of you people get this? You like seeing folks die? I don't. But, that's what's happening. The evidence is overwhelmingly on my side. Lets put an end to spin training.

Hey Doc,

I agree with a lot of what you say, and can definitely see your point of view -- but I have to say that as a rule I am generally opposed to taking anything out of the syllabus. In my opinion, proper training, conferring more knowledge and experience, is always a good thing.

Nevertheless, I'm really curious where you're getting the figures regarding stall-spin accidents in the US vs. Canada. If indeed there is a statistic out there supporting what you're saying, highlighting the fact that the training may doing more harm than good, I would re-examine my position.

I do also take issue with your assertion that the aircraft aren't designed to safely demonstrate and recover from spins. If it's one of the approved maneuvers listed in the POH, of course it's designed for it! The important part that must be emphasized is that there are certain limitations that must be respected when spinning in most training aircraft. I know you are aware of that, of course -- I just wanted to say I think you should stick to the training issue, and not argue about whether the aircraft are capable. They are.

[mcrit]

1. My sympathies to the friends and families of the deceased.

2. I am not speculating on the cause of the crash. Please bear this in mind when you read para 3.

3. I do not understand why people get their knickers in a knot over spin training. An intentional spin in a properly loaded aircraft that is certified for spins is just not that dangerous. It is certainly a long way from the most dangerous thing that is done in ab initio flight training.

[Aviatard]

forgetting to read the limitations in the POH - and here is the clue

Believe it or not, but I'm in the same boat with them.
First, I was NEVER told about all that stuff during my study, although I have had two different schools and bunch of various instructors.

You never read everything in the POH? Why not? Why would you expect your instructor to tell you everything that's in that book? Did you not feel any responsibility on your own to learn what's in there?