Sunwing declares profits of 71 million last year

[OPEC6-Heavy]

confusedalot,

So OPEC 6 HEAVY,.......
For our education, can you please post the TUI link where the Canadian operations actually did make this reported profit?
I gots lots of troubles with the internets..........

Your living up to your name again. I guess someone beat me to the link, anyways if you can understand the report you shall see for yourself. And as far as your internet troubles maybe you should leave the trailer park.

[confusedalot]

you sound like a threatened dog. yup, I live in a trailer park in a suburb of a major city in the country of canada. the trailer has never had a mortgage, since it was always fully paid.

so mister oil sheik who flys a heavy airplane for a living, from the humble trailer park pion, can you puleese, puleese,

show me the money?

please?

your Highness?

[Gravol]

Incidentally, I well remember being a wide body Captain and being out of work due to an airline failure...only to see in the following year the same passengers being flown by a foreign carrier which was code sharing with Air Transat. Was very demoralizing to be on EI and see the work go overseas. Although I had a current A310 Type Rating and Captain's PPC .... I was not qualified to break into the Quebec market as a Canadian English only speaking pilot back in 2002. This is the way it goes sometimes.

Comment removed as it is off topic and discriminatory.
Bandaid

Bravo to your high class argument av8tor, still waiting on your first + last name.

I'd keep note of his IP just for fun. Seems a bit borderline unstable to me.

[Gorgons]

I think pilots should stay out of the business of running a business and stick to their business of flying airplanes. Typical pilot thinking… Company makes what they consider to be a big profit so they should use that profit to prop up pilots and create training centers in an effort to keep them employable elsewhere, like there special.

The business principle is quite simple; their model means that they need a bolstered workforce for a handful of months out of the year. To all those that are screaming it will keep Canadians employed, that’s a red herring. They are temporary jobs, the same people you are demanding be trained and employed will be the same ones applying with wet ink on their ticket looking for something “more stable” or standing back in-line at the EI office when the season ends. Who’s the winner in that scenario? Not the company… Anybody that says the taxpayer because even though it was only temporary employment the tax dollars stayed in Canada is full of shit! I’ve never meet a pilot, particularly pilot’s flying wide bodies that don’t have an accountant doing their taxes and not trying every imaginable angle to reduce their tax burden.

The only winner in that scenario is the pilot that got trained and hired for a short term contract. Protectionism will hurt the industry in the long run, if we force company A to increase his costs on what is perceived as a matter of principle it’s only a matter of time before company B comes along and flies the same routes for less. It will find a way to lower its costs, in this day and age it’s usually wages… and company A is out of business. But hey they protected a handful of temporary jobs Canadian jobs while they were in business.

Seventy-one million is a drop in the bucket in this business; it sounds good but it’s only this year. A service interruption ie strike, volcanic ash, terrorism etc or perhaps a couple pennies increase in fuel costs and next year it’s a loss.

Just like that the doors close and what will be said on this board? The company was managed poorly… company tries to manage their labour costs and they are bad because they not running a training center for Canadian pilots, news flash the company answers to the investors on matters involving money, not the Canadian pilot community, if the investors wanted to be in the flight training business I bet they would have invested in Flight Safety or SimCom.

[mbav8r]

Gorgons,
Your argument seems biased towards Sunwing, do you work for Sunwing?
It is really quite simple, IF Sunwing did not TRIPLE their fleet with foreign pilots, other companies would not be laying off pilots.
IF Sunwing only grew their winter fleet to the same size that a true reciprocal agreement could accommodate, say 20 for example, thats assuming they send their entire fleet to Europe, then the flying that would have been done by the other 11 aircraft, would still be done by the other Canadian carriers that do NOT abuse the system.
Instead, they use the economic advantage created by this practice to flood the market and cause layoffs elsewhere, I honestly don't understand why people don't get this!

[Gorgons]

No, I don't work for Sunwing; actually I’ve been burned by them on two occasions using them for travel to sun destination holidays, I avoid using them now.

I’m looking at this from a business perspective, they generate profit based on calendar, during certain seasons they generate more profit by increasing fleet size. Once that season ends the profit and fleet size drop. They shed aircraft and the corresponding flight crews i.e. lay-offs.

From a purely business standpoint why would I hire, pay to train and keep employees on a payroll when I don’t need them? The document is censored so I don’t know the real costs but I believe 4.7 million was floated as the cost to train the temporary crews? Again from a business perspective why would I cough up 4.7 million from the bottom-line when I can insert crews that don’t require me to absorb that cost? Particularly when I know the same people I trained are going to either use the endorsement provided to seek more “stable” employment elsewhere or be back in the EI line in four months… not particularly good use of my funds.

I just don’t like the entitlement and protectionist tone this issue is taking, I’m not pro any particular carrier… it’s just my opinion, that and $2.00 will get you a cup of coffee.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

No, I don't work for Sunwing; actually I’ve been burned by them on two occasions using them for travel to sun destination holidays, I avoid using them now.

I’m looking at this from a business perspective, they generate profit based on calendar, during certain seasons they generate more profit by increasing fleet size. Once that season ends the profit and fleet size drop. They shed aircraft and the corresponding flight crews i.e. lay-offs.

From a purely business standpoint why would I hire, pay to train and keep employees on a payroll when I don’t need them? The document is censored so I don’t know the real costs but I believe 4.7 million was floated as the cost to train the temporary crews? Again from a business perspective why would I cough up 4.7 million from the bottom-line when I can insert crews that don’t require me to absorb that cost? Particularly when I know the same people I trained are going to either use the endorsement provided to seek more “stable” employment elsewhere or be back in the EI line in four months… not particularly good use of my funds.

I just don’t like the entitlement and protectionist tone this issue is taking, I’m not pro any particular carrier… it’s just my opinion, that and $2.00 will get you a cup of coffee.

What would you do ? Because in Canada there are laws under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and Regulations under the Immigration and Refugee Protection regulations that define and dictate who can work in Canada and that these laws and regulations must be respected. Sunwing cannot go to India, where there are hundreds of qualified type rated 737 pilots who earn much less than what the same earn in Canada and bring them to work here, even if that would save them money.

There are programs such as the CIC reciprocal program and the HRSDC TFWP which allow certain foreigners to work in Canada under certain conditions. The CIC program states that an equal number of Canadians must go to work overseas for the foreigners to be able to work here and the TFWP states that there must be a lack of qualified pilots in order to bring foreigners in Canada.

I have an ATPL and about 15000 hours including thousands on several different airliners.
What makes me qualified to fly as Captain on a Canadian airliner ? My 15000 hours of experience or the 737-800 ype rating that a freshly graduated 250 hour pilot can obtain ?

I can get the 737 rating in 6 weeks.
How long will it take the 250 hour pilot with a 737-800 rating on his licence to get an ATPL and 15000 hours ?

HRSDC seems to think that the rating is what makes me qualified.

[North Shore]

What, exactly, is wrong with entitlement and protectionism?

As a Canadian citizen, shouldn't I be entitled to the first crack at jobs in Canada, and have them protected for me, my friends, family, and community? Who is going to pay for the basics of police, fire, ambulance, medical, education etc.. when we are all unemployed because we can find someone from somewhere else to do all of our jobs for cheaper? Business? Ha - they already whine that they pay too much tax.. Perhaps, from a business point of view, we should allow everybody to come here, from wherever, and set up shop, to do whatever job they were qualified to do in their home country, and at wages that they consider acceptable?

[Gorgons]

First let me say I admire you’re determination and respect the fact that you have an opinion and stand behind it. Clearly you have put a lot of time and effort into your cause.

But with all due respect it seems those agencies you mention don’t agree with your position; if they did wouldn’t they shut the practice down? How long have you been fighting this fight? Seems to me it’s been more than a couple months and you have managed to make it national news and still no change in their positions.

You asked me what I would do; I would do precisely what they are doing, fill the seats with guys that I didn’t have to spend 4.7 million on and dump them the second I didn’t need them.

[Gorgons]

North Shore as much as I agree Canadians should have 1st crack at Canadian jobs I guess we have to define and agree on what 1st crack means. I believe it means an opportunity to apply for the job.

Once the application hits the desk it comes down to qualifications and in the aviation world that sometimes means making a decision based on how much additional training and/or upgrading one candidate needs over another.

Correct me if I’m wrong but in this situation the Canadian candidates fell victim to the cost of upgrading to be “qualified” to fly the NG type to the tune of 4.7 million dollars, not exactly chicken feed.

Arguably they had 1st crack but didn’t meet the posted requirements. So a protectionist position is they are entitled to the job regardless of qualifications and the company should be forced to pay the training costs and keep everything inside our borders. This should all be done without consideration to the long term health or financial stability of the company. What happens when somebody else comes along and operates a little cheaper and the 4.7 makes the difference between being completive and in business versus out of business? Let’s sacrifice perhaps 1000’s of jobs for the sake of 30 or 40 temporary jobs all in the name of entitlement.

I say again the only one that gains in this scenario is a handful of pilots that will be back in the EI line with theirs hands out after 4 months. The company 4.7 million lighter in pocket and the remaining staff fighting with the company because the raise being offered sucks.

[photofly]

Seems to me it’s been more than a couple months and you have managed to make it national news and still no change in their positions.

You have a very odd idea of how long it takes any branch of government to actually take a decision, let alone change one that's already been made.

TC can't even issue a medical certificate sticker inside two months, and you want them to reorganize the airline industry in the same period?

[mbav8r]

Gorgons, you clearly haven't been paying attention or reading the pages and pages of material regarding this subjet.
From a business stand point, of course this makes sense, no one could argue that! However, should Sunwing be allowed to violate and abuse the laws of this country to the detriment of all those high paid legacy jobs at Air Transat or any other Canadian carrier who doesn't.
After all one doesn't have to look for hard to see the future of this industry if allowed to permeat, Air Transat next, then Rouge perhaps and on and on. This must be stopped or we(Canadian pilots) will all be replaced seasonally.
Jazz could make a case for LMOs, our winter flying is far less than our summer flying, where does it stop?
I don't have time to look it up but the TFWP clearly states, companies will make every effort to hire OR train Canadians for these jobs. No where does it say, only if economically feasible. The laws also say the LMOs can't be granted if it gives one company an economic advantage over another, so hopefully the assurances about this issue going forward come to fruition and this will no longer be an issue for Gilles to pursue but time will tell.
ALPA Canada also seems to think there will be resolutions going forward, their reasons for not publicly outing politicians, seem valid to me, I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

[complexintentions]

Gorgon, your post makes the reasonable point that the training costs aren't insignificant. Where your logic falls down is the fact that the practice currently taking place is creating a distorted market by allowing specific companies to save on training costs, while others aren't able, or aren't presently, taking advantage of the practice.

You can't preach pure capitalism to one point (reduce costs to a minimum by whatever means possible, ethics and commonsense be damned), and then ignore the principle as it applies to another (regulations are bent to allow one company to benefit over another).

Which is it? Laissez-faire or regulated to some degree? It can't be both.

In the current scenario, there are only two real outcomes. One is that the other competitors in the market will be forced to adopt the same tactics to compete. The other is that all participants will be regulated to adhere to the same standards. Which, in the long run - looking beyond the next quarterly profit report - would truly benefit the COMPANY and by extension, its employees, most? (I emphasize company sInce I know most hardcore capitalists will be quick to point out that a corporations only duty is to its shareholders. But that argument is another whole topic.)

But what has truly inflamed the issue is that there would appear to already be adequate laws and regulations in place to prevent the abuse of the TFW program in the way Sunwing and Canjet are doing and Transport Canada and HRDC simply aren't enforcing them, and are in fact willfully ignoring them. Are you really trying to suggest that their lack of willingness to move on the issue is the sole determinant of the viability of Gilles' efforts? Seriously? I admire your faith in the government and bureaucrats to do their jobs properly. I don't share it.

If the only way a company can remain profitable is to be totally reliant on their employees being trained in another country, at no expense to the company, perhaps they should fire whomever wrote their business plan. From the simple fact that Sunwing's own figures show they somehow managed to eke out a 71 million dollar profit, it would seem to make a mockery of that argument. If 4.7 million dollars isn't chicken feed, then what is 71 million? And yes, I have run a small business and realize that all profits are important. But the whole situation begs the question, how did vacation airlines ever manage BEFORE they were allowed to bring in a couple hundred foreigners? It's hardly an industry in its infancy. Nope, just seems like a company trying to do an end run around the intent of TFW's and the current government being complicit in allowing it to continue.

I've said it before, but this issue of TFW's is massive, and companies in Canada better have their Henry Ford moment pretty damn soon or there won't be any decent jobs left to allow people to even buy their crap products like all-inclusives to Cuba.

[complexintentions]

Sorry mbav8r, it would seem we're on the same wavelength!

[Gilles Hudicourt]

ALPA Canada has received similar assurance before last winter. Look what happened.

[jpilot77]

North Shore said

What, exactly, is wrong with entitlement and protectionism?

As a Canadian citizen, shouldn't I be entitled to the first crack at jobs in Canada, and have them protected for me, my friends, family, and community? Who is going to pay for the basics of police, fire, ambulance, medical, education etc.. when we are all unemployed because we can find someone from somewhere else to do all of our jobs for cheaper? Business? Ha - they already whine that they pay too much tax.. Perhaps, from a business point of view, we should allow everybody to come here, from wherever, and set up shop, to do whatever job they were qualified to do in their home country, and at wages that they consider acceptable?

100% could not agree more.

How long would this practice be tolerated if the foreign workers were lawyers or politicians?

[BE20 Driver]

I think pilots should stay out of the business of running a business and stick to their business of flying airplanes. Typical pilot thinking… Company makes what they consider to be a big profit so they should use that profit to prop up pilots and create training centers in an effort to keep them employable elsewhere, like there special.

No one is saying that we know better. We're fighting the fight because basic common law is not being followed. If a company isn't profitable, then there is no work for anyone - foreign or domestic.

The government has been emphatic in their defense of the current situation by repeating that Canadians should be given first crack at jobs here. If that were true, all 35 applicants (sunwing's numbers) should have at least been offered an interview. If we subsequently turned down the job because we didn't think we could support our families on only six months of work, that would be another story entirely.

My quick back of the napkin calculation shows that for six months of work, I'd make more than a brand new medevac FO in a year. I do remember how much that sucked but I'd still have 6 months to do some 704/703 work (during their busiest season), take up welding, flip houses. The issue here is that it isn't my decision. The companies have decided on their own that I am not interested.

I can guarantee that there are people out there would gladly do this job, knowing it's only for six months. I would bet that a good portion of them would return for at least a few seasons too. If you don't see either of these companies as a long term career, you'd be waiting to go to Westjet or AC. How many of those pilots wouldn't return the following season 10%, 20%? I am guessing it wouldn't be much more than their current churn numbers.

At the very least, if 35 Canadians applied, there should have been 35 less work permits issued (assuming that all 35 met all of the other requirements save the Type Rating). All I'm saying is don't throw the baby out with the bath water. There wasn't an attempt to interview everyone, let alone make every effort to hire or train a Canadian.

Let's also admit that it wouldn't cost $4.7M to train all those guys. Sunwing says $40k each. You can buy a TR in the US from a for profit company for $7500. I am sure Sunwing would dry lease the sim and provide their own instructors. Throw in 5 weeks worth of salary, hotel and per diem and you're still no where near $40k. No one will argue that it isn't expensive when you scale things up. If you can't make money by growing your business, you don't have a viable business plan.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I collected Resumes of pilots who had applied to Sunwing back then. We printed over 70 Resumes that ALPA delivered in person to HRSDC. And it is same to assume that some of the pilots who applied to Sunwing didn't send me a copy.

OF the 70, 6 were 737NG rated, one not current the others yes.

[rudder]

I collected Resumes of pilots who had applied to Sunwing back then. We printed over 70 Resumes that ALPA delivered in person to HRSDC. And it is same to assume that some of the pilots who applied to Sunwing didn't send me a copy.

OF the 70, 6 were 737NG rated, one not current the others yes.

And now you can see where HRSDC came up with their magical '25%' rule..........

[ea306]

Hello Rudder,

I must of missed reading about the HRSDC 25% rule you mention in your previous post. Could you kindly tell me; What rule is the 25% rule?

Thanks.

ea306

[rudder]

Hello Rudder,

I must of missed reading about the HRSDC 25% rule you mention in your previous post. Could you kindly tell me; What rule is the 25% rule?

Thanks.

ea306

It is referred to in the ALPA Bulletin (link below):

http://www.alpa.org/portals/alpa/newsle ... 013-EN.htm

[ea306]

Ok...thank you!

[Gorgons]

Well now…. ALPA's been on the case since 2006, isn't that seven years? Now I know somebody in here said I was clueless, that it takes the Transport Canada over 90 days to produce a medical or something like that and these things take time but seven years and they have yet to stop an airline from doing something that is apparently breaking the laws of the land?

My experience with HRDC, CTA and Transport Canada was that if they even remotely thought you were doing something that contravened a regulation or law they stepped in and immediately stopped you from doing whatever you were doing. Then they dragged you through a long protracted process whereby you had to prove you were operating under their rules.

Now I’m even more convinced this is simply a union issue, unions will sacrifice all the lambs for the sake of a few sheep every time.

The fact that this has been on the table for seven years with more than 50 meetings occuring since 2011 should be a red flag to all. They (sunwing) must be coloring inside the lines or somebody would have taken their crayons away by now.

[newcomer]

...

[jpilot77]

Been flying in the terminal airspace around Montreal this week and every Sunwing call had a heavy foreign accented accent. I though all the foreign pilots went back to Europe after the winter season was done?