Transat to use Foreign Pilots

[Beefitarian]

Um, I can't possibly be the only one that knows the Ku Klux Klan would historically be the group, opposed to foreign pilots coming here to steal North American jobs.

[FICU]

Absolutely none of it comes from Gilles fight, not even 0.1%

This is what the Sunwing/pro-TUI crew seem to be missing. If it wasn't for the efforts of Gilles, ALPA, and the other Canadian stake holders putting this issue in the government's face TUI would happily have more foreign pilots/aircraft working for Sunwing and less Canadians... because we all know Canadians are too expensive for TUI.

Canada and Europe both have the same problem of having a peak season and a low season one in the summer and the other in the winter. Why then is the exchange so imbalanced in favor of the Europeans?

Because the Canadian company is run by the European company.

[TG]

TG wrote:
Absolutely none of it comes from Gilles fight, not even 0.1%

Just to clarify, I was doing mars4's reverse psychology for Trey Kule.

I totally agree with you:

This is what the Sunwing/pro-TUI crew seem to be missing. If it wasn't for the efforts of Gilles, ALPA, and the other Canadian stake holders putting this issue in the government's face TUI would happily have more foreign pilots/aircraft working for Sunwing and less Canadians... because we all know Canadians are too expensive for TUI.

[Gravol]

Your a class act, Mr. h

*** You're


Your line of logic is at par with your grammar. I can no longer take anything you write in these forums seriously.

[trey kule]

Please forgive the grammatical error. English is not my native language and I do make mistakes.

Now how does that saying go? " You fight me....you fight my gang.. "

Please forgive the imperfect translation..it does not translate literally from French.

Looks like the gang is all here

The logic here seems to betwofold.

1. Sunwings is doing nothing more than sticking to its business plan, which they have made clear to the various agencies, regulators etc.
2. Some people feel that change can come about by first kicking people in the groin, telling them they are wrong, and then asking or their assistance. It takes a bit of a leap in logic to think that will work
3. When Sunwings, in accordance with their business plan, hires more and more Canadian, our gang proclaims they and their leader are responsible. Pure Hokum

The simple truth is Sunwings business plan is working. They continue to hire more Canadian pilots each year, and should be congratulated for that. Unlike one of their competitors who thinks that the way to deal with an imperfect business plan is to unleash the dogs on their competitor.

But hey, I am just one against the gang....have at it.

[complexintentions]

Dude, you're just getting your ass handed to you. Don't try and make it seem like you're some misunderstood martyr against "the gang", whatever that means. You're not.

Sunwing is simply exploiting the complicit government agencies that have continually ignored their own mandates. This mainly benefits a European company, which manages to project a semblance of being a Canadian company. No one is fooled, not by you, not by them. Travel Services is calling the shots and perhaps one day the full story will come out as to why Canadian regulators have turned such a blind eye to this farce. The memory of Mulroney receiving paper bags of cash does surface from time to time.

The "Canadian jobs" you speak of are incidental byproducts, not an objective. They will not last, not after a company gets a taste of hiring those who pay for their own training over those the company pays to train. You're a fool if you think Sunwing would hire even one Canadian pilot if they thought they could get away with hiring only those who've paid for their own rating. While you're suggesting Sunwing should be commended for their token hiring of Canadians, they're quietly bringing in multiples more of foreign pilots. This may benefit the handful of pilots who are given jobs at Sunwing to justify the foreigners, but it isn't a good longterm trend for Canadian pilots, at all.

Try and see the big picture.

[monkey]

Complex just to add some fact to your rant:

1) Travel service is not running the show, completely separate company nothing to do with Sunwing or TUI outside of MUTUAL wet leasing of each others aircraft and crew. Some would argue that TUI is calling the shots but Transat lost that argument in court, because they are not calling the shots.

2) There is no big xfiles conspiracy here, Sunwing's management has kept the government informed of the plans and is playing by what the government considers to be the rules. Obviously people interpret things differently hence Gilles argument, although I tend to agree with Gilles interpretation.

3) Your token hiring of pilots so far to date is around 60 this year (Started with 150 this year), thats a 40% increase in one year. Hardly token. Also I hear possibly 30-40 more in the fall, no bond, free type rating, great jobs. To date Sunwing hasn't hired anyone to my knowledge who has paid for their own type rating, not sure where you've been getting your info from but suggest a little research. I also hear there will be less foreign pilots in Canada than last year, a step in the right direction.

Trey's points are accurate, your out to lunch on this one. Don't let fact keep you away from a good witch hunt thou, its a great time to jump on the anti sunwing bandwagon.

[FICU]

Monkey... so what you are saying is that Sunwing is now doing what it should have been doing since it's inception but of course not due to outside pressure.

Do you agree that had TUI/Sunwing been left alone to do as it pleases all these Canadian non-typed new hires would not have happened?

[ea306]

Monkey... so what you are saying is that Sunwing is now doing what it should have been doing since it's inception but of course not due to outside pressure.

Do you agree that had TUI/Sunwing been left alone to do as it pleases all these Canadian non-typed new hires would not have happened?

Pardon my political incorrectness. One would have to be retarded to think that the external pressures have not had an influence on recent hiring. What is difficult to quantify is by just how much exactly.

Who knows and who cares. The good thing is that there has been some significant progress and let's hope it continues.

Complex just to add some fact to your rant:

1) Travel service is not running the show, completely separate company nothing to do with Sunwing or TUI outside of MUTUAL wet leasing of each others aircraft and crew. Some would argue that TUI is calling the shots but Transat lost that argument in court, because they are not calling the shots.

2) There is no big xfiles conspiracy here, Sunwing's management has kept the government informed of the plans and is playing by what the government considers to be the rules. Obviously people interpret things differently hence Gilles argument, although I tend to agree with Gilles interpretation.

3) Your token hiring of pilots so far to date is around 60 this year (Started with 150 this year), thats a 40% increase in one year. Hardly token. Also I hear possibly 30-40 more in the fall, no bond, free type rating, great jobs. To date Sunwing hasn't hired anyone to my knowledge who has paid for their own type rating, not sure where you've been getting your info from but suggest a little research. I also hear there will be less foreign pilots in Canada than last year, a step in the right direction.

Trey's points are accurate, your out to lunch on this one. Don't let fact keep you away from a good witch hunt thou, its a great time to jump on the anti sunwing bandwagon.

Monkey is correct. And his point number three is noteworthy. The Sunwing Training department have been kept very busy....and there is plenty more work for them yet to do.

It's one thing to be angry with the issues...complex: if one lathers up to the point that they are frothing at the mouth....well rabid logic is only just that. Best let the facts be kept straight. Monkey is only highlighting facts that helps keep the story straight. The main issue aside of course.

[ea306]

Here's an idea, perhaps the only reason Sunwing is hiring so much and sending so many to Europe is due to the fact that Gilles has been getting traction with the media and government....perhaps every. New hire at SW and every recent upgrade and every FO/CA who's schedule bidding power recently improved dramatically owes him a few beers...[/quote

Here is a thought. Perhaps, just perhaps, as a few of us posted almost a year ago, Sunwing's plan was to reduce the number of foreign pilots they needed as their business model matured....and that is exactly what they are doing. As a result of all this hated hiring of foreigners for a few years, we are now seeing much more opportunity for Canadian pilots.

Even Canadian pilots who were laid off by one of its competitors who could not figure out how to operate profitably, but had the biggest magpie suggesting to allow them to compete easier with a profitable company.

Seems some have run to the front of the parade and are claiming it a personal achievement for pissing off just about everyone except the 'its all about me' crowd, rather than recognizing it would have happened regardless if they were trying to rip SW apart for eating their company' lunch.

It will be interesting this year to see if AT. increases the number of foreign pilots they use. I don't expect much ballyhoo will be made of that.

I too was one of those posters of over a year ago.... Progress is being made however I was very surprised by the numbers Gilles clarified on one of my posts. The numbers are still rather lopsided. So long as this corrective trend continues perhaps we will see a better picture. I definitely believe it will get there...hopefully much sooner than later. But it was not there as of the winter of 2012/2013. I would be very pleased to see an improvement this coming winter 2013/2014.

[ea306]

Absolutely none of it comes from Gilles fight, not even 0.1%

This is what the Sunwing/pro-TUI crew seem to be missing. If it wasn't for the efforts of Gilles, ALPA, and the other Canadian stake holders putting this issue in the government's face TUI would happily have more foreign pilots/aircraft working for Sunwing and less Canadians... because we all know Canadians are too expensive for TUI.

Canada and Europe both have the same problem of having a peak season and a low season one in the summer and the other in the winter. Why then is the exchange so imbalanced in favor of the Europeans?

Because the Canadian company is run by the European company.

Just a comment on those two highlighted points in your post:

TUi pilots (as I have been told) enjoy the highest pay scales in Europe for Charter Airlines. There is no cost saving as far as salaries are concerned if indeed SWG is run by TUi. The second point has been challenged in court and has been proven incorrect. Partners yes however; SWG is not run by TUi.

Not to put more gas on the fire....BUT: The fact that no Canadian Pilots fly for TUi Germany in any form (FLVC or WET LEASE) is something that does not sit well with anyone that I know. Just saying.

[FICU]

[quote="FICU"
Just a comment on those two highlighted points in your post:

TUi pilots (as I have been told) enjoy the highest pay scales in Europe for Charter Airlines. There is no cost saving as far as salaries are concerned if indeed SWG is run by TUi. The second point has been challenged in court and has been proven incorrect. Partners yes however; SWG is not run by TUi.

They may be highly paid but my reference to Canadian pilots being too expensive was in regards to the cost of a NG type rating. TUI pilots come to Canada with one so they are cheaper which is why they come. Court verdict means nothing as we all know big business is cloaked in smoke and mirrors.

Not to put more gas on the fire....BUT: The fact that no Canadian Pilots fly for TUi Germany in any form (FLVC or WET LEASE) is something that does not sit well with anyone that I know. Just saying.

Not by coincidence because TUI protects it's own while Sunwing does what it's told.

[ea306]

Not by coincidence because TUI protects it's own while Sunwing does what it's told.

Agree on your first point.
TUi does protect its own.

As for NG type ratings.... Agree again. Rather expensive to spend on a short term need. Financially better to WetLease.... Or have short term contracted help.

Sunwing independently does what it deems financially prudent within the parameters as provided for and allowed for by the various departments of government. As the government chooses to change how they govern, SWG will comply in accordance.

Like you said: "All big business....."

[monkey]

TUIfly (Germanic overlords as some may know them) do not allow foreign pilots because of a strong national pilot union. It is not company specific but union specific. Something we lack here in Canada. I'm sure the parent company would love to have Canadian wet lease aircraft to fill in the busy summer season at financially it would be cheaper.

[ea306]

TUIfly (Germanic overlords as some may know them) do not allow foreign pilots because of a strong national pilot union. It is not company specific but union specific. Something we lack here in Canada. I'm sure the parent company would love to have Canadian wet lease aircraft to fill in the busy summer season at financially it would be cheaper.

Yep...

[whipline]

They may be highly paid but my reference to Canadian pilots being too expensive was in regards to the cost of a NG type rating. TUI pilots come to Canada with one so they are cheaper which is why they come. Court verdict means nothing as we all know big business is cloaked in smoke and mirrors.

So it's a big conspiracy that only you and Gilles no about? Here's a fact for you. Sunwing started bringing travel service crew over because the Tui crews were to expensive. Tui has zero say and the proof is in the numbers. But don't let facts cloud your argument.

Here's another fact. Sunwing wants nothing more then to hire all Canadian pilots. Not because they're Canadian because they're way cheaper. Only problem is trying to retain them when they get laid off every 6 months.

What I'd like to see is a massive increase in sunwing domestic flying in the summers and transfer that lift to southern charters in the winter obviously with sunwing crew. Only problem is convincing the hunters to get more aircraft and the profits that could be made.

[ea306]

They may be highly paid but my reference to Canadian pilots being too expensive was in regards to the cost of a NG type rating. TUI pilots come to Canada with one so they are cheaper which is why they come. Court verdict means nothing as we all know big business is cloaked in smoke and mirrors.

So it's a big conspiracy that only you and Gilles no about? Here's a fact for you. Sunwing started bringing travel service crew over because the Tui crews were to expensive. Tui has zero say and the proof is in the numbers. But don't let facts cloud your argument.

Here's another fact. Sunwing wants nothing more then to hire all Canadian pilots. Not because they're Canadian because they're way cheaper. Only problem is trying to retain them when they get laid off every 6 months.

What I'd like to see is a massive increase in sunwing domestic flying in the summers and transfer that lift to southern charters in the winter obviously with sunwing crew. Only problem is convincing the hunters to get more aircraft and the profits that could be made.

That would be great to see...however it's difficult to know if it would be profitable. The Tour Operator can sell seats of course...but then there are no vacation packages to profit from. Might be a reason for the Hunters hesitancy.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

My two cents.
1) Nothing was proven in court. The accusation about Sunwing not being Canadian was levelled by Transat with the Canadian Transportation Agency and that agency unilaterally ruled behind closed doors that Transat's allegations were not founded.
2) Canjet attempted once to do reciprocity in the summer of 2011 by sending pilots to fly in Europe and those that went went to Germany with XL Germany (I think).
3) The Sunwing / Travel Service agreement was entered before TUI bought Sunwing shares.
The exchanges probably continued and even increased in 2012/2013 with reference to the previous year, most likely with the specific intent nott to provide any fuel to Transat's allegations.
No one but the parties involved really know at what real price the TUI aircraft and pilots are leased and contracted by TUI to Sunwing. There are so many expenses that are shared by TUI and Sunwing (hotel rooms, Boeing maintenance contracts, fuel hedging etc) that any number of these can be used to cover what Sunwing actually pays TUI for the aircraft and pilots. A full audit alone could allow to get to the bottom of this. Since all this is protected under the commercial secrecy laws, only a criminal investigation could force the books to be opened to such an audit.

That TUIfly pays its pilots more than Sunwing pays its own means nothing. How much does Sunwing pay TUI for such a pilot while same pilot would be at home anyway collecting his salary if he had not been sent to Canada?

[whipline]

Seriously Gilles? Sunwing doesn't hedge fuel. Sunwing purchases the rooms not Tui. Sunwing has its own maitanence and stores contracts.

Do we get better room rates now we're part of Tui? Of course. So? Behind closed doors? Let me guess big bad sunwing paid them off? Some sort of governmental conspiracy? Or maybe, just maybe we're Canadian.

The price to have a tui pilot in Canada is basically identical to having a Canadian pilot in the UK. Zero gain or loss for all involved. Both are much more expensive then having their own pilots doing the flying, but fixes the problem of staffing for 6 months. Yes we have reciprocal deals with Thomson but the rest of the foreign pilots who come in are at 100% sunwings discretion. Nothing to do with Tui. Best rate wins. Guess who that is?

As for aircraft I used to know some of the leasing numbers. I haven't heard them in years. The cheapest was eurocypria. Transavia screwed sunwing so they're not used. Now that we're part owned by Tui doesn't it make sense we swap aircraft for maximum utilization? Canjet used to have Tui aircraft. They still might? It's not cloak and daggers. When we run the aircraft we pay for them. Except we dont have to put the million or so security deposit on them. Pretty simple. If it makes you feel better we've ordered three more of our own.

News flash. Sunwing is a well organized, well funded, well run company and great to work for. Oh and we make a shit load of money each and every year.

How do you say happy Canada Day in German?

[spm]

@whipline.

Does Sunwing own hotel in most of it's destinations? Or mainly in Cuba and Mexico?

And when you wetlease the foreign aircraft are they on a deal similar to a power by the hour contract? or is it a monthly fee?

I'm just curious to know if fleet utilization is less of a concern with the wet leased aircraft depending on the type of lease agreement.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Seriously Gilles? Sunwing doesn't hedge fuel. Sunwing purchases the rooms not Tui. Sunwing has its own maitanence and stores contracts.

Do we get better room rates now that we're part of Tui? Of course. So? Behind closed doors? Let me guess big bad sunwing paid them off? Some sort of governmental conspiracy? Or maybe, just maybe we're Canadian

Seriously. Here is an example of what I refer to:

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2195

TUI signs a contract with Boeing on behalf of all its airline subsidiaries. Including Sunwing. This is just an example. There is probably a lot more of that going on at all levels.

And you are wasting your time trying to pass me off as some lunatic who invents conspiracies. I never invent things as you well know by now.

My point is that there are enough transactions at all levels between TUI and Sunwing to cover or obscure the real value of any transaction

[aerosexual]

3) The Sunwing / Travel Service agreement was entered before TUI bought Sunwing shares.
The exchanges probably continued and even increased in 2012/2013 with reference to the previous year, most likely with the specific intent nott to provide any fuel to Transat's allegations.

Really Gilles? Sunwing continued and even increased their agreement with Travel Service most likely with the specific intent not to provide fuel to Transat's allegations? C'mon you have more sense than that.

Also, your example of the Boeing "Maintenance Performance Toolbox" is just a good example of the synergies that are enjoyed by joining forces with the TUI group. This is smart business and contributes to the profitability of both organizations.

You are grasping at straws by trying to find any little thing against Sunwing. Like I said, stick to your main argument about pilot reciprocity. It is an important issue, and one that is only getting better with time. It is getting better with time not only in part due to your efforts quite frankly, but mainly because it just makes business sense as the company grows and is better able to balance out the high and low seasons. Let's just hope that we see growth in the US Tour Operator Vacation Express to help continue the positive trend.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Aerosexual I made an argument that no one except Sunwing and TUI know for sure what one pays to the other for what services, period. All I said was that the relation between the two is at many levels and that nothing can be taken at face value. Do not put words in my mouth. Please read and try to understand what I wrote and the context in which it was written before wrongly assuming what you think I wrote or would write. I am not grasping at anything. I don't need to.

Do you realize the resources and efforts that Sunwing had to sink into this foreign pilot issue ? It amazes me. I don't make any of this up. I don't need to. My efforts were just invested into understanding
1) what Sunwing does as far as foreign pilots
2) how Sunwing does it
3) why it does things they way it does them, for everything that is done, is done for a reason. Nothing is an accident.

The one assumption I never made about this company is that anyone at Sunwing was dumb. Quite the contrary. I always assumed everyone was super bright.

When I first began to look into this foreign pilots issue back in the spring of 2012, a member of the ALPA Canada Board told me that Sunwing used so many different schemes to import its foreign pilots that I would never get to the bottom of it all. Well, I did.

Yet there are still guys like you who assume I am dumb or some sort of lunatic Don Quixote charging windmills.

[complexintentions]

@monkey,

my interest in this little bun fight is solely as one who has a keen interest in the effects of globalization. To say I am on a witch hunt is laughable, I don't even work in Canada. I myself am employed by an entity that is very good at operating between the lines and finding ways to "interpret" various governmental policies. I have no "rant" against Sunwing, and I can assure you TUI has far more influence than you realize no matter how it is downplayed. Not a conspiracy, just facts derived from people who work for TUI. Corporations exerting control across borders is hardly X-Files stuff, this has been going on for decades.

And working at a company that hired and trained over 600 pilots last year to bring the total pilot roster to over 3500, yes, I do consider a few dozen pilots a "token" amount - especially when Sunwing is paying the salary for multiples more than that amount of foreigners. You miss the point completely - it isn't about the numbers, it's about the practice, the precedents, and the effect it will have on the industry longterm. If you really think it will be a positive, to use foreign labour whenever expedient, you simply have no grasp of economics. The business will thrive, yes. The employees - for awhile. But then, not so much.

I've seen it over and over, in all kinds of industries.

Good luck.