xsbank wrote:As any successful company knows, it takes years of hard work to build up a good reputation and that can be lost in an instance, then it takes years of hard work to get it back. Its also way easier to keep a happy customer than to get a new one or get one you pissed off, back.
Blowing smoke is pointless, pilots are the most cynical bunch on the planet. Pay, working conditions, respect are all what its about. Provide that and you get a loyal, happy workforce. Screw 'em and who will operate your aircraft?
Change+, your copy sounds like the guys who write those great stock tips, guaranteed to make you rich, just sign here and we'll tell you the name of the stock.
kilpicki wrote:minus change I don't normally read long rambles but yours held me spellbound. plus change I think its time to cut and run as I dont think many people believe a word your saying.
It really is a pity that the company has maintained such a reputation for so long. xsbank, I strongly agree with you. I also believe it takes a long time to get a good reputation up only to lose it at a standstill. And every effort to reverse the path of a reputation will be speculated as invalid or a lie until the positive effect is made.
This thread is not about me, my career, or my future. So attacks on my intentions are pointless, especially when assumed.
It simply was to open up awareness that things are changing for the better, so if you are looking for work and thought CMA is on the same strenuous path of negativity which has been observed here, maybe wait a second and think twice about it because it's reversing. Will it be done overnight? Absolutely not. Hence why in the beginning I said come here for long term not short term.
Kilpicki, I will not run away because of some negative posts. I value them as it goes to give more chime to the way things have been, and the way things are becoming.
At the end of the day, we all have free will and pick what information to believe, and what not to believe.
You have information from within the company, and you have information from people about the companies past. Assuming intentions gets no body anywhere, especially not if you're looking for work.
Frank, I agree with you. I realize that anything I say here will probably be torn apart, chewed, and spat back onto my face because of the countless grudges people have from the past. But I assumed the responsibility to fight past that when I decided to post about CMA's future. As for the comment on low timers, yes they work their way into a structure within the company. And if you read the rest of my post, you see that the low timer program is an area we are revisiting for improvement as well. As for low timers being dime and a dozen, it's the truth. And more companies hide behind this advantage than you think. Is it motivating to hear that? No. Should the mentality change? Yes. Will it change? Yes.
Change starts somewhere. It has started with long-standing issues such as pilot pay. Which is usually the hardest aspect for a company to change. So if the company is willing to put their money where their mouth is, it ought to tell you that more change is in the works. Now if you believe it or not, that is a mere matter of personal choice.
Since this seems to be turning into a CMA flame session I thought I'd respond directly to a few of the things that cHange- and others have said. I'm by no means saying that CMA is a perfect place to work, but I want people to have up-to-date information about CMA practices/policies.
1900 Captain pay now starts at just over 50k before tax, before add-ons (line indoc/training/charter pay)
CMA pays for travel and accommodations for ground school attendees and provides each attendee with their own hotel room. Trainees also get a decent meal-allowance during ground school.
I was paid for each day of training that I received (ground school and flight training) at the agreed upon starting salary rate. I received this pay after completion of my type rating as a lump sum. I'm unclear on whether I would have received this if I had failed my type rating and been let go.
From day one of ground school, my training took just over three weeks. I have seen it take longer than this.
Jack In The Box wrote:I chuckle at how many first time posters there are in this thread (including the OP).
I'm lovin' the political answers. If he's truly not in Management or HR, he should be...
Q: What do you pay?
A: For you guys looking to come in dct entry on our 705 machine, it's highly likely you'll exceed 77749/yr. (Later sneaks in the caveat that you may have to work OT and fly additional charters to do so)
Q: Do you have Jumpseat agreements with other airlines
A: We have ZED Fares...
CK
PS... Just to be clear, while I always get a chuckle out of just about everything on here, I still think the OP has done a fantastic job.
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Last edited by Captain Kangaroo on Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
I for one applaud the original poster for taking the time to give out more detailed information regarding CMA. It is such ashame that when someone tries to provide any information there are always others who want to attack them.
I worked at CMA many years ago and I did not enjoy my time there. The pay, schedule and managements attitude about not caring if people wanted to stay long term were my biggest gripes. To hear that these areas have at least been addressed to some degree (whether that degree is enough is up to the individual to decide) makes me happy for the folks that work there.
Thank you to the OP for giving out this info, it is appreciated by some.
+/-change wrote:You've got a way with words cHange-
I'm by no means saying that CMA is a perfect place to work, but I want people to have up-to-date information about CMA practices/policies.
That's the whole intent about this thread. Give people an update on what's actually going on here at CMA. Integrity needs to be maintained with not shooting down us as messengers, but listen, and take in the information, and process for yourself what to believe. I am still appauled by how everyone is so war ready regarding jumping up and down about CMA's past, yet a minority seems to be open to take in that we have changed, matured, and are moving into some great heights as a company. I do sympathize with you guys that had a bad experience here. And again, I think it gives this thread more cowbell to the changes that are coming!
It's quite simple, you have updated information from us, and you have old information from past employees. Make up your mind accordingly. It doesn't mean much to us if you think it's still a bad place. Some very qualified people are applying and getting jobs here that deserve to be here. So if you want to take an avcanada flameout as a means to not believe what's going on - I personally invite you to do so and think you should stay away from CMA as a whole. Captain Kangaroo, this can't be management talking like this lol.
Jack In The Box wrote:I chuckle at how many first time posters there are in this thread (including the OP).
If you are really curious about the integrity of people signing up, have ahramin or sulako look at our IP addresses. If they match, I think you'd have a court case to hang us all like Barabas Jesus and the other sand spit in a row. Voodoo mech was his name? LOL
Seriously, we are all different people, and I guess the sense of uniformity between us must mean that we are starting to come together as a group to post some info here for your guys knowledge?
But don't let the popcorn get too cold.
wordstwice wrote:I for one applaud the original poster for taking the time to give out more detailed information regarding CMA. It is such ashame that when someone tries to provide any information there are always others who want to attack them.
I worked at CMA many years ago and I did not enjoy my time there. The pay, schedule and managements attitude about not caring if people wanted to stay long term were my biggest gripes. To hear that these areas have at least been addressed to some degree (whether that degree is enough is up to the individual to decide) makes me happy for the folks that work there.
Thank you to the OP for giving out this info, it is appreciated by some.
What I will end this reply with is this.
The original management that you guys had such terrible experience with has recognized what it has done to the reputation of the company. Namely in how much interest qualified people have shown to work here. As a result, changes have been coming for about a year now to put the right people in the right positions to help management/owners take a step back in their day to day involvement. Instead allowing their new management grew to run the day to day stuff. But with this there needs to be a formulation of trust established. It takes time for somebody involved for 25+ years to just let go control of their company. So please do remain cognizant of the fact that the structure is changing immensely here at CMA, and whilst it's slow, it's happening.
I feel like deja vous when I say this, but I say it again. Because of the above, come here for long term not short term goals.
I think that's where I'm going to stop replying in these threads unless I feel something new has come up worth discussing. Other than that, I believe everything else has been beaten to death.
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Last edited by +cHange on Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jack In The Box wrote:I chuckle at how many first time posters there are in this thread (including the OP).
I'm lovin' the political answers. If he's truly not in Management or HR, he should be...
Q: What do you pay?
A: For you guys looking to come in dct entry on our 705 machine, it's highly likely you'll exceed 77749/yr. (Later sneaks in the caveat that you may have to work OT and fly additional charters to do so)
Q: Do you have Jumpseat agreements with other airlines
A: We have ZED Fares...
CK
PS... Just to be clear, while I always get a chuckle out of just about everything on here, I still think the OP has done a fantastic job.
CK. Thanks, even though I can't quite process if you're being sarcastic.
Let me be clear. As a company culture presently, we do not provide over time work to our employees. Not that I agree with it or think that the reason behind it is valid, but we don't.
As a guy coming in with what is being asked right now (5000 hours total time), you will be competitively paid with the companies listed in the OP. As a result, Porter falls into that category, which means that you'll make more. That's why it's highly likely - perhaps my tone of sarcasm was taken in wrong context. To clarify, you WILL make more.
I think answering that we have ZED fares is good enough. We also have individual airline agreements. Oh and more buddy passes than your nominal national airlines will provide. And more, and more and more. But I'm not going to spout off about company information freely on a forum. Since challenged, I will respond as I just did.
Jack In The Box wrote:I chuckle at how many first time posters there are in this thread (including the OP).
If you are really curious about the integrity of people signing up, have ahramin or sulako look at our IP addresses. If they match, I think you'd have a court case to hang us all like Barabas Jesus and the other sand spit in a row. Voodoo mech was his name? LOL
Seriously, we are all different people, and I guess the sense of uniformity between us must mean that we are starting to come together as a group to post some info here for your guys knowledge?
But don't let the popcorn get too cold.
...huh?! I think you missed the point of my post!
I don't give a flying cluck WHO is posting, or what your IP address is. I'm making light of how many new timer posters there are coming to this thread.
Don't worry, the popcorn has already gone through the digestive cycle.
I have flown for a number of companies, and full disclosure: CMA is one of them.
For any aspiring pilots, there is a great lesson behind these posts, particularly from the Shakespearian diatribe of '-change'. But to get this lesson we need to step back from the tree of words and look at the forest. Let's examine whats missing from his rant and that is: any personal accountability.
Lets get this straight: A self described 'low timer' would mean little or no commercial flight time. This low timer had the proven path from zero experience to a 737 and chose to make that experience a miserable one. Yes, chose it.
I feel no responsibility to defend CMA, as I doubt they'd do it for me. I will, however, step in to defend common sense whenever I think it is taking a beating.
CMA was a poor choice for -change. He should have gone to work for the regional that provides a much quicker route to the cockpit for low timers, gives you the left seat 6 months after you start as FO, and allows you to take any time off you want, for the salary of your choice. This airline is called 'Fantasy Airways' and they operate scheduled service between Dreamland and Nowheresville.
At CMA and many other places I've worked, the biggest cause of poor morale, is a few people bitching about poor morale.
I flew for a company that makes Central Mountain look like paradise: Max duty, min rest, and filthy cargo planes. There was definitely some morale issues, but strangely, some of those boys were a blast to fly with. Why? Because they decided that they were going to make the best of it while it lasted, and realized that the only thing worse than a tough day in the cockpit is sitting next to some pilot who wants to complain from check in to the parking lot after.
Weird that I have had 13+ hour duty days in bad weather that had a ton of laughs, and on the other hand, flown half a day in clear skies and sunshine and it sucked. The difference? In one case the guy next to me had a good attitude and in the next, the sense of entitlement pouring out of my cohort made me want to sprint to the lav, stick my head in the bowl, hit flush, and hope that the blue liquid drowned me into the sweet silence of unconsciousness.
Our friend negative change mentions being a puppet. Here's what I know about puppets:
They have a mouth, no balls, and only talk when they have something stuck up their ass.
For any pilots out there that are working in what they feel is a bad job, there is always hope. It is law in Canada that every airport is equipped with a machine to provide pilots with relief from a bad employer. It is a rectangular object, approximately 7 feet tall and about 3 feet wide. Just so you can't miss it, it has a sign over it that reads: EXIT. Seriously, quit. You will do two things: Move on to something better, and force the offending employers to change their ways or have no staff. This idea that you can be 'trapped' in a flying job is a myth perpetrated by people who need to believe they have no choices. Don't buy into it. The only trap that keeps you in any job is poor choices you make outside that job.
Here's life lesson #1: A company exists to make profit (money) for it's owners or shareholders, not pay you to take time off and get flight hours.
Why is CMA paying more these days? Because they have to. Why do they have to? Because too many pilots quit. A guy who says a place sucks and stays for 8 YEARS (!) is the very reason things don't change.
Lesson 2: You will lose your mind if you start to count other peoples money (or flight hours, or upgrades...) I flew right seat with a guy who was hired after me, with less relevant experience, and was paid more. I was pissed alright. I was pissed at myself for not doing a better job negotiating my salary. Not the Capt's fault, he did a better job selling himself. Not Smithers fault if I took a contract for less than I could have. I find it hilarious when I hear from a pilot who becomes livid about their salary only when they hear somebody else makes more.
Lesson 3: Put up or shut up. Every company I have flown for (except for the unionized ones) yapped about unionizing. I'd like to know one single pilot complaining about the need for a union that has called up ALPA, CALPA, or (as in the case of Sunwing) the CAW and tried to do anything about organizing. If you really held the conviction that union flying was the answer, these organizations are waiting for the phone call or email. Is unionized flying better, hell yes. Is it worse? Oh HELL YES!! There is a price to pay for everything, and representation is no exception. Same goes for whining about company policy. I missed the part of -change's monologue about where he lists the numerous initiatives he proposed to the company where he coherently offered a solution for his plight that also would benefit the business bottom line. Any discussion of meetings with the management with his 'seven part program for CMA's market domination through extra time off for pilots'? Nope, just a whole heap o' bitching.
Lesson 4: If you don't like your job, it doesn't mean anyone is EVIL. -Change didn't simply make a bad decision (.... and then see if riding it out for 8 years would help!) No, he was a sword wielding champion for the forces of good surrounded by the demons of an oppressive regime. Seriously, the drama level in this writing is epic in proportion. Nearly everyone is this guys enemy, HR, Management, the guy testing him, the guy he flew with.... No doubt, now that he's moved on, this attitude has vanished, and he's on the joyous path of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness....oh wait, no, he spent hours of his free time on a 3000+ word op ed on the state of a company he no longer works for.
A friend of mine flies for CMA still. His upgrade was delayed for reasons that seem to hint of politics/favoritism or issues with the training. His response: Keep doing the job to the best of his ability, treat his passengers and co-workers with respect, and when CMA stops being his best option, give appropriate notice and move on. In the meantime, he goes out of his way to help new guys avoid the pitfalls that he fell into. Now, he misses the opportunity to wind up the drama machine, but you can't have it all. I guess all he gets is his self respect and low blood pressure. Is 'Captain Kangaroo' up in smithers a dick? Is HR a bitch? Maybe, I never went out for dinner with them so anything is possible. They hired, I flew. I deal with the reality that until I win the lottery I am working, they deal with the reality of operating a company with conflicting pressures. End of story, end of drama.
Last lesson for today kiddies: Think, then act.
- A training bond is a gamble, just like Vegas. If you can't afford to risk it, don't bet. As far as I know CMA still bonds the unrated 1900 guys 1 year. So if you can't buy it out, or suck it up for a year, you are a fool to accept it.
- If you are a low timer at CMA or any other company, you are gambling that it will be better or quicker to do that than it would be to teach, fly up north, fly cargo/Navajo's or a combination thereof. I've seen low time programs produce keen, prepared pilots, and also seen them culture a sense of smug entitlement that takes guys from zero time, to 'know it all' in a few months of bag tossing or dispatching. Knowing a lot about one star doesn't make much of an astronomer. There's a whole universe out there.
-If you are in a non-union company and think you deserve a raise, man-up (or woman-up) go to management and prove it. Explain how the company is best suited by paying you more. This may be because of the extra value you add, specific skills you possess, or because there are better opportunities for you if you leave. If you actually deserve more you should get it, or go the the company that offers it.
-When you hear someone starting an initiative to make a company better, get involved and help. When you start to hear someone start to wax poetic about how lousy their life as a pilot is, run. Say you need to study SOP's, claim a genetically inherited small bladder, whatever, just get the hell away. If you hate your job (flying or whatever) quit, or make the best of it, but understand that there are a lot of us out there, at practically every airline in Canada (even CMA) who are professionals, actually like going to work, and will invest some time (like writing this reply for example) to continually try to make things better.
Raguel wrote:I feel no responsibility to defend CMA, as I doubt they'd do it for me. I will, however, step in to defend common sense whenever I think it is taking a beating.
CMA was a poor choice for -change. He should have gone to work for the regional that provides a much quicker route to the cockpit for low timers, gives you the left seat 6 months after you start as FO, and allows you to take any time off you want, for the salary of your choice. This airline is called 'Fantasy Airways' and they operate scheduled service between Dreamland and Nowheresville.
At CMA and many other places I've worked, the biggest cause of poor morale, is a few people bitching about poor morale.
I don't have a dog in the CMA dust-up, and I'm certainly not trying to step in between Raguel and +cHange.
But that was one seriously awesome post - almost poetic. Particularly given a lot of the drivel on this site that passes for informed commentary.
Just stumbled across this thread, awesome stuff! Keep it coming.
I never worked at CMA because I was always able to find better paying jobs, I guess my short term goals like eating and paying bills took priority over my long term goal of flying at a major airline.
There is something to be said for expectations here. Most pilot's have worked crappy jobs with long hours, poor pay, for a boss that took advantage of the fact we needed some time in our log book to advance our careers. Have pilots been joining CMA had it placed on a pedestal it had no place being on? How does it compare to flying bag runs in a metro? Or working the ramp in Yellowknife? Some posters here make it sound like they've been interned in a North Korean prison camp.
I would love to see pay and working conditions improve for all pilots, especially young low timers, however, there will always be something to complain about if thats how you want to spend your career. I've heard guys at AC complain about being awarded flights to Hong Kong when they bid for Sydney's…oh the humanity! It's really easy to sit and complain about all sorts of stuff that affects our day to day lives, with another like-minded aviator sitting next to you, nobody is going to disagree, but it's not going accomplish anything. Being positive is much more difficult, if you're unsatisfied you can; 1 Change your job, 2 Change your career, 3 Take steps to enact the change you'd like to see, or 4 Change your perspective.
