First Air - Dec 11 2013 - Norman Wells

[FICU]

There have been 737engine shut downs after departing the Wells followed by safe single engine landings back at the Wells with no issues. Absolutely no problems with the Wells as a suitable airport unless the weather is crap or the runway is crap.

[Brown Bear]

I'm casually wondering what type of bird is flying around in the middle of winter, at 6,000' or higher, in almost dark, without a clearance, without radar or TCAS...?

Actually swordfish, there are several. The most obvious being the RAVEN. Not only is the raven the world's largest "perching" bird, but they are very rarely equipped with radar, or TCAS. They must rely solely on their INS and GGB (green garbage bag) seeking, on board navigation systems. They very rarely bother to pick up ATC clearances. The bloody nerve!

[Brown Bear]

There have been 737engine shut downs after departing the Wells followed by safe single engine landings back at the Wells with no issues. Absolutely no problems with the Wells as a suitable airport unless the weather is crap or the runway is crap.

I'm sorry but, so what? They went elsewhere. Why is this such a problem for so many of you? When you get to put on the "big boy pants" and sit in the left seat, you to will be able to have your decisions second guessed by pilots who know your job, so much better than you, right here on Monday Morning Quarterback's Corner.....AKA, avcanada.ca

[tbaylx]

Tbaylx:

Maybe we're splitting hairs, I actually have run a QRH to two on the DC10, '72 '73 '75 '76' '744 320 330. Of course it takes time, but if you read my post again, I make ref to that. You might say I get what you're saying but the guy making all the noise does not. I will not be bickering with Boxcutter here as he or she seems to be too cement headed to understand what most people here are saying. (I think you and I live in the same part of the world? PM me some time.)
Merry Christmas all…

GRK

Guess we're on the same page Flown some of the same types. I've been through a few different parts of the world, but traded sand for snow for now. Merry Christmas as well!

[whiteguy]

The single engine doesn't worry me so much. Engines do fail but I haven't heard of any cases where one failed in cruise and then the other failed an hour later while diverting.

It's the fire scenario that has me reviewing the ditching procedures and worrying how realistic they are.

About 10 or so years ago, AC was doing an evening YVR-HNL flight with 67. One of the engines had high oil consumption, which was noted from the previous crew. They were flying along the oil consumption accelerated. They watched the indication wind down to no more oil (or how ever it is indicated on a 67). While expecting to shut down the engine, the fire alarm went off on the good engine, forcing them to pull the fire bottle. Declared an emergency and landed at Dillingham.

I heard it second hand it was a few years back, so there could be missing or incorrect details.

Landed at Dillingham??? Sounds like a good story.

[swordfish]

Maybe we're splitting hairs, I actually have run a QRH to two on the DC10, '72 '73 '75 '76' '744 320 330. Of course it takes time, but if you read my post again, I make ref to that. You might say I get what you're saying but the guy making all the noise does not. I will not be bickering with Boxcutter here as he or she seems to be too cement headed to understand what most people here are saying. (I think you and I live in the same part of the world? PM me some time.)

You must be an OLD coot, GRK. Anyone who's flown a DC10 and a 72 should be retiring now!

[FICU]

I'm sorry but, so what?

I could care less what they did. I'm just stating a fact and trying to put to rest this perception that Norman Wells is a scary and undesirable airport.

[GRK]

Swordfish,

I am an OLD COOT according to my kids, an OLD FART according to my bride, an OLD DUFFER according to my golfing buddies, and an OLD BED SH*TTER according to my flying buddies, and apparently expected to retire soon by my company. Actually not that old, I didn't say which seat in the DC10 or '72.

[A346Dude]

NO. They DO NOT. Operational Control prior to brake release is shared by the PIC and the DXX, ops and Commercial has no say when it comes to safety. Ever. Once brakes release, the responsibility for the safety of the aircraft is 100% in the PIC, the DXX is there as a crewmember to aid and suggest courses of action, but the decision is in the hands of the Captain. In an inflight emergency, there is no way on God's green earth that Commercial or Operations has any damn say whatsoever over the safety of the aircraft. Ever.

Operational Control and (Commercial) Operations are two different things that people still occasionally mix up.

In one sentence you say dxp is there (after brake release) to act as a crewmember and suggest possible courses of action, and the next you are emphatic that they have no say whatsoever? Which is it? If you are trying to make the point that they cannot order a captain to do something, there is literally nobody arguing that.

I really don't know why you are so angry about a hypothetical. It is entirely possible the crew decided on their own the safest course of action was to continue to YZF, well before they talked to dispatch.

[swordfish]

I'm casually wondering what type of bird is flying around in the middle of winter, at 6,000' or higher, in almost dark, without a clearance, without radar or TCAS...?

Actually swordfish, there are several. The most obvious being the RAVEN. Not only is the raven the world's largest "perching" bird, but they are very rarely equipped with radar, or TCAS. They must rely solely on their INS and GGB (green garbage bag) seeking, on board navigation systems. They very rarely bother to pick up ATC clearances. The bloody nerve!

Actually, I'm not convinced. Rereading the CADORS it said the incident happened at 14,000', and there's almost no birds that fly that high; the ravens "rook" in the evening (i.e. they all get together in a social group and discuss the spoils of the day, sitting in adjacent trees); some must be radar- and TCAS-equipped, because you hardly ever encounter them on final approach when your own radar is on. That's why we should have the radar on, during an approach, even though it is the middle of winter. Maybe he was hanging onto the lip of the cowling for grim death, and finally succumbed to the chill factor.

But I have to admit - their OBNS's work well during winter!

[swordfish]

Swordfish,

I am an OLD COOT according to my kids, an OLD FART according to my bride, an OLD DUFFER according to my golfing buddies, and an OLD BED SH*TTER according to my flying buddies, and apparently expected to retire soon by my company.

Me too, dude! They're all asking when I'm retiring. My standard response is that I can't afford to. Besides, what else would I do...?? I actually ENJOY my job!