First Air off course

[Jean-Pierre]

Co-pilot's fault. He wasn't assertive enough and didn't say the proper SOP phrase "Correct course right 250nm".

[Still learning]

So sad. How many reading this practice DR? No, then you too follow a track bar.

[Airmanship Police]

Is First Air becoming the Keystone of the north?

[sstocker31]

According to the MEC the crew has been fired.....I hope your all happy

[godsrcrazy]

According to the MEC the crew has been fired.....I hope your all happy

Really fired our suspended with pay.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/fir ... -1.2602050

[CpnCrunch]

The last post was likely close to what happened - even the 200 classics are using universals FMS units - I have seen this happen before -- crew did not double check a manual way point or entered a fuel check way point that was not on the track (error in flight plan) and the last I would suspect is autopilot in heading mode instead of coupled -- I would like to see the cadors

Do you guys not have a moving map gps in the panel?

[trey kule]

According to the MEC the crew has been fired.....I hope your all happy

If that is true, happy might not be the word, but more comfortable flying with the company.

If, in fact, it is correct, i would think that there must have been a fairly significant issue, and I expect the company did what they had to do.

I am always amazed that when pilots screw up royally, they seem to think it is a learning experience, and nothing more. How many times is a crew allowed to put pax lives at risk, tarnish the reputation of the company, and demonstrate what would seem to be a total lack of professionalism and skill before a company acts?

In any event, I do hope your post has all the accuracy of a Timothy K post, and that the error was due to an instrument failure and the crew exonerated....

[Airmanship Police]

Having someone very close to me that works in the north and has to fly on the northern airlines sometimes, I wish the northern standards would get tighter and things like that and Resolute wouldn't happen anymore.

I have heard some horror stories also from another northern airline that flies the dirtiest 737-200's I have ever seen!!

[Illya Kuryakin]

According to the MEC the crew has been fired.....I hope your all happy

If that is true, happy might not be the word, but more comfortable flying with the company.

If, in fact, it is correct, i would think that there must have been a fairly significant issue, and I expect the company did what they had to do.

I am always amazed that when pilots screw up royally, they seem to think it is a learning experience, and nothing more. How many times is a crew allowed to put pax lives at risk, tarnish the reputation of the company, and demonstrate what would seem to be a total lack of professionalism and skill before a company acts?

In any event, I do hope your post has all the accuracy of a Timothy K post, and that the error was due to an instrument failure and the crew exonerated....

When you reach the point that you're bombing around the north, with passengers, in a 737, your "learning" experiences should be behind you. Frankly, if the airplane checks out, the crew should get their walking papers. Passengers have a right to expect to leave A, and arrive at B. A lighter fuel load, and well, you do the math.....
Illya

[trey kule]

I am not sure if I was not clear, but there is no disagreement from me on your post, as it pretty much says the same thing.

The only difference is that it just might have been equipment error (though I really don't know how), so I did not want to condemn the crew out of hand. Just seen to many times where people jump to conclusions.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I am not sure if I was not clear, but there is no disagreement from me on your post, as it pretty much says the same thing.

The only difference is that it just might have been equipment error (though I really don't know how), so I did not want to condemn the crew out of hand. Just seen to many times where people jump to conclusions.

That's why I added "if the airplane checks out".
Illya

[swordfish]

Is First Air becoming the Keystone of the north?

Having someone very close to me that works in the north and has to fly on the northern airlines sometimes, I wish the northern standards would get tighter and things like that and Resolute wouldn't happen anymore.
I have heard some horror stories also from another northern airline that flies the dirtiest 737-200's I have ever seen!!

Get lost with your stupid and uninformed - or poorly informed - generalizations. FYI, the "Northern" standards are exactly the same as the "Southern" standards.

As as for your ridiculous comment on the 737-200's, get a fuckn life. They have literally flown thousands of hours since 737 service was introduced here 25+ years ago, flying cargo and passengers successfully, safely, on gravel strips, long distance routes, with primitive ground aids, by highly skilled and professional pilots who have climbed the ladders of experience.

It is regrettable that this incident comes on the heels of the TSB report on the Resolute accident. It highlights the fact that occasional screw-ups occur, but in no way speaks for Northern Operators, First Air specifically, Northern pilots, or safety standards in the North generally.

[swordfish]

So sad. How many reading this practice DR? No, then you too follow a track bar.

I hate to be the one to tell you so bluntly, dude, but in this day of GPS navigation, LPV approaches, WAAS, INS, ACARS, sat phones, and TAWS-based GPWS, the arts of DR navigation, astro navigation, the use of a star almanac and an astro-compass, navigating between 2 NDBs using the audio null of a rotatable ADF loop, and making a VAR approach in a 25-kt crosswind - are becoming lost - and unnecessary - skills.

[frozen solid]

So sad. How many reading this practice DR? No, then you too follow a track bar.

I hate to be the one to tell you so bluntly, dude, but in this day of GPS navigation, LPV approaches, WAAS, INS, ACARS, sat phones, and TAWS-based GPWS, the arts of DR navigation, astro navigation, the use of a star almanac and an astro-compass, navigating between 2 NDBs using the audio null of a rotatable ADF loop, and making a VAR approach in a 25-kt crosswind - are becoming lost - and unnecessary - skills.

I would only rate a skill as unnecessary if it turned out that it wasn't any use in avoiding being lost and off course. One thing is for sure, nobody on the flight in question was taking star or sun shots, or NDB fixes, or dead reckoning, or any other "unnecessary" activity.

I think it's interesting how many people find merit in willful ignorance. It's almost as if you look down on people who know how to navigate in addition to knowing how to employ all the modern crutches. The fact is that the stars have always been there and always will be there. ADFs are still there. Maps are still there. Forecasted winds are still there. The sun is still there and does the same thing every day over and over again without end. You might as well take notice of it.

A generation or two ago people knew more than the generation before them and added their new skills to the old ones. Now we take pride in knowing less. If you happen to know more than the bare minimum necessary to survive you are somehow portrayed as being some kind of throwback who holds others to an unnecessarily high and unfair standard. Some of you guys need to learn to take some pride in your chosen profession and stop taking deliberate ignorance as some kind of token of intellectual superiority. It's not.

[Tuk U]

I would only rate a skill as unnecessary if it turned out that it wasn't any use in avoiding being lost and off course. One thing is for sure, nobody on the flight in question was taking star or sun shots, or NDB fixes, or dead reckoning, or any other "unnecessary" activity.

I think it's interesting how many people find merit in willful ignorance. It's almost as if you look down on people who know how to navigate in addition to knowing how to employ all the modern crutches. The fact is that the stars have always been there and always will be there. ADFs are still there. Maps are still there. Forecasted winds are still there. The sun is still there and does the same thing every day over and over again without end. You might as well take notice of it.

A generation or two ago people knew more than the generation before them and added their new skills to the old ones. Now we take pride in knowing less. If you happen to know more than the bare minimum necessary to survive you are somehow portrayed as being some kind of throwback who holds others to an unnecessarily high and unfair standard. Some of you guys need to learn to take some pride in your chosen profession and stop taking deliberate ignorance as some kind of token of intellectual superiority. It's not.[/quote]


Very well said Frozen, bravo!

[Diadem]

I would only rate a skill as unnecessary if it turned out that it wasn't any use in avoiding being lost and off course. One thing is for sure, nobody on the flight in question was taking star or sun shots, or NDB fixes, or dead reckoning, or any other "unnecessary" activity.

I think it's interesting how many people find merit in willful ignorance. It's almost as if you look down on people who know how to navigate in addition to knowing how to employ all the modern crutches. The fact is that the stars have always been there and always will be there. ADFs are still there. Maps are still there. Forecasted winds are still there. The sun is still there and does the same thing every day over and over again without end. You might as well take notice of it.

A generation or two ago people knew more than the generation before them and added their new skills to the old ones. Now we take pride in knowing less. If you happen to know more than the bare minimum necessary to survive you are somehow portrayed as being some kind of throwback who holds others to an unnecessarily high and unfair standard. Some of you guys need to learn to take some pride in your chosen profession and stop taking deliberate ignorance as some kind of token of intellectual superiority. It's not.

I don't see how taking sun or star shots or using NDB fixes would have helped in this situation; it's not like the GPS suddenly failed and the crew had to scramble to figure out where they were. If they had been paying attention to the GPS they wouldn't have gotten off course, and if they couldn't pay attention to the GPS I don't see how they would have been helped by having an astrocompass on board which they also ignored. They had all of the equipment they needed at their disposal and they didn't pay attention to it, so adding more things for them to ignore wouldn't help.

[fish4life]

People are talking about astro compass use etc something as simple as one pilot having the GPS track up and the other having the VOR would have saved them

[kev994]

I don't see how taking sun or star shots or using NDB fixes would have helped in this situation; it's not like the GPS suddenly failed and the crew had to scramble to figure out where they were. If they had been paying attention to the GPS they wouldn't have gotten off course, and if they couldn't pay attention to the GPS I don't see how they would have been helped by having an astrocompass on board which they also ignored. They had all of the equipment they needed at their disposal and they didn't pay attention to it, so adding more things for them to ignore wouldn't help.

I think the assumption is that the GPS was programmed to the wrong waypoint, in which case someone ought to have noticed at some point that one of the few Nav aids enroute didn't make sense with their planned track. Monitoring the GPS only confirms that you are on the track that you plugged in, not that you plugged in the correct waypoint.

[winterwarmfront]

The crew noticed the mistake, corrected it, landed safely, REPORTED IT THEMSELVES - and were promptly fired.

Is this the kind of industry you all want to work in??? So much for non-punitive safety reporting.

[switchflicker]

So much for the 'Non-punitive' Reporting System. Oh yea, they were not fired for the report, just for flying off course. Maybe that's right?

Sw

[GyvAir]

The crew noticed the mistake, corrected it, landed safely, REPORTED IT THEMSELVES

Occurrence Summary
Date Entered:2014-04-07
Narrative:
UPDATE: TSB Report#A14C0054: A Boeing 737-200, C-GNDE, operated by First Air as flight FAB955, was cruising en route when the crew was advised by another flight that air traffic control was trying to contact them. The crew contacted ATC and determined they were north of course about 225 nm northwest of Iqaluit. The flight turned toward Iqaluit and landed without further incident. The company is investigating to determine why the aircraft was off course.
O.P.I.: Further Action Required:No

That doesn't read much like the crew was particularly on top of the situation. As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, by the time they turned south, they would normally have been well into their approach on that route.
I too would prefer to hear that there were exceptional circumstances that led to this situation and have the crew exonerated if warranted, but making brash statements that don't seem to match up with reality doesn't help anybody's cause.

[CpnCrunch]

I'm frankly shocked that First Air crews are still bombing around up there without knowing where the hell they are - it was precisely the same thing that caused the Resolute crash. Even Buffalo puts garmin 296s in their museum pieces. Hell, you can even spend $20 on an iphone app to get a moving map and basic terrain awareness.

[Still learning]

Are you reading to learn how to survive?

My point about DR was not about ignoring modern realities. It was to point out that the same thing could happen to any one and in particular those slamming the crew in this case.

It is not out of date to have and verify your mental picture of what is happening. (Hope that we all have one especially when in a moving object) You all know we call this situational awareness or your "theory of the situation" TOS. A basic element of this is knowing your heading, speed and time otherwise know as DR.

GPS is my best friend and the only other navigation friends I have in this league are the watch and the compass. These three have been our big advances in getting around when you cannot see grandma's house! It is useful to remember that gps provides only a very accurate position and that all other information is derived from the change in that position. This limitation can lead one to an incorrect TOS (eg waypoint entered incorrectly) and rather than helping to expose the error will in fact continue to reinforce it.

Many cross checks are possible. Knowing what "North" your directional gyro is set to is basic. Traditional nav aids are another. The use of NDB's in areas of compass unreliability is still required to cross check your TOS. Another contributor has made the excellent point that the border of NDA and SDA needs to be updated due to migration of the magnetic pole. This would decrease flight operations in free gyro mode and enhance flight safety.

This occurrence is very unfortunate especially for the crew. It is best to remember that "this could happen to me". Are you flying or riding?

[godsrcrazy]

I'm frankly shocked that First Air crews are still bombing around up there without knowing where the hell they are - it was precisely the same thing that caused the Resolute crash. Even Buffalo puts garmin 296s in their museum pieces. Hell, you can even spend $20 on an iphone app to get a moving map and basic terrain awareness.

When did the iPhone moving mar and basic terrain app start working in the Arctic with no cell coverage for hundreds of miles. To think i have been shutting my phone of because its useless with no cell sites.

[CpnCrunch]

When did the iPhone moving mar and basic terrain app start working in the Arctic with no cell coverage for hundreds of miles. To think i have been shutting my phone of because its useless with no cell sites.

Since when has GPS required a cellphone tower?