Pilot in Waiting?

[ReserveTank]

One offers a very good chance to advance to flying some day

"some day" isn't good enough. It's trash. Call it crazy, but when you apply for a flying job, you should be flying . Either you're qualified or you're not.

I've dealt with these types over the years and they are pathetic at best-Guys with 400 some odd hours working ramp or dispatch willing to throw each other under the bus for an hour in the right seat.

The market is saturated with this mess. These are the guys driving your WAWCON in the gutter, and I have no respect for them. And I voice it.

[metal]

You're not applying for a flying job, at least that's how it is in my company. You're applying for the job at hand, be it on the ramp, in cargo, reservations, ops etc and are interviewed accordingly. They don't give two shits if you're a pilot at that point, only that you'll do the job you're interviewing for properly.

As said multiple times in this thread, you can either take a job completely unrelated to anything in aviation like flipping burgers while waiting for a position, or you could work for a company and learn the ins and outs and be somewhat around what you want to do while waiting for a position.

[trey kule]

What exactly is a "pilot apprentice" then, if they do not care if you can fly or not?

[cdnpilot77]

It means that your CPL is a license to learn real life flying not FTU "dream world" flying...I'm quite certain I've heard that here once or twice before. So, by the true logic, this should be applied to a flying position only! After all, an AME apprentice works on airplanes right? Not on vacuums or toasters?

[jsous2]

Its funny, as I read everyones posts, I started contemplating on accepting the job offer I got for up North. I've been working part time at my home town airport building up my resume but when I go to apply for a job..no luck. Its been like this now for the past 6 months and I'm at the point now where I can either get a full time job flipping burgers or accept this so called "pilot in waiting job", But the catch is I gutta make my decision fast cause my student loans are about to bite me in the ass with payments.

[jsous2]

I'm a 200hr wonder. Was offered a ramp position. The contract specifically mentioned keeping the bathrooms and parking lot clean. I'm a pilot, not a janitor. Turned it down as soon as I cooled down enough to turn it down politely. Three days later I was offered a flying job. Problem solved. Was actually offered three jobs, just from e-mailing resumes. If I didn't have those other two offers, I still would've turned down scrubbing toilets.

Wanna be a good guy and share those other companies that offered you a position (PM if u want!) . I am in the same boat as you were in before…300 hour pilot with student loans to start paying off.. was offered a job advertised as a "pilot in waiting" position.. I don't wanna take it but I'm in need of some $$$$$ but more importantly to start flying.

[Diadem]

Its funny, as I read everyones posts, I started contemplating on accepting the job offer I got for up North. I've been working part time at my home town airport building up my resume but when I go to apply for a job..no luck. Its been like this now for the past 6 months and I'm at the point now where I can either get a full time job flipping burgers or accept this so called "pilot in waiting job", But the catch is I gutta make my decision fast cause my student loans are about to bite me in the ass with payments.

This is precisely my point: Why get stuck in a minimum-wage position that won't lead anywhere when you could get a slightly better-paying job that has career advancement opportunities? Because of some idiotic principle? Low-timers can't find direct-entry flying jobs, and that's not going to change if they're just waiting around for a job to be handed to them. No one is entitled to a job just because they passed the CPL tests, which is something just about anyone can do considering the standards and that there are no limits on the number of times one can re-take a failed test. If a low-time pilot decided that he or she wanted to go work for Air Canada as a rampie while waiting for a flying position to open up, would anyone take issue with that? Or is it only ramp jobs that would lead to flying positions which should be off-limits for licenced pilots? If it's the latter, then your logic is completely warped and you're making a totally arbitrary distinction.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Did anybody bother to check the job market before spending a king's ransom learning to fly? Hello, there are no jobs. Still, like lemmings they continue to flood the marketplace with more talent than can ever be used.
Teaching is the same right now. Probably many other professions. The time to do your homework is before you take out student loans.
Confederation College tells students that they're training for flying positions. Sure you are. Yum. Sunshine.
Illya

[Airmanship Police]

I remember seeing Wasaya advertising a job labelled as "Pilot Apprentice" the other week...Duties included hangar work, loading aircraft and office work etc. I lol'd pretty hard

Now add to the list making sure the door is properly secured...

[Diadem]

Did anybody bother to check the job market before spending a king's ransom learning to fly? Hello, there are no jobs. Still, like lemmings they continue to flood the marketplace with more talent than can ever be used.
Teaching is the same right now. Probably many other professions. The time to do your homework is before you take out student loans.
Confederation College tells students that they're training for flying positions. Sure you are. Yum. Sunshine.
Illya

Yes. As I posted earlier, and you obviously ignored, when I started my training jobs were available in excess, but that changed abruptly. The present condition of the job market tells one nothing about future career prospects.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Did anybody bother to check the job market before spending a king's ransom learning to fly? Hello, there are no jobs. Still, like lemmings they continue to flood the marketplace with more talent than can ever be used.
Teaching is the same right now. Probably many other professions. The time to do your homework is before you take out student loans.
Confederation College tells students that they're training for flying positions. Sure you are. Yum. Sunshine.
Illya

Yes. As I posted earlier, and you obviously ignored, when I started my training jobs were available in excess, but that changed abruptly. The present condition of the job market tells one nothing about future career prospects.

I'm calling bull shit.....unless you started your training in 1976! Jobs have NOT been available "in excess" for well over five years! Not for freshly minted pilots.
Illya

[Diadem]

I'm calling bull shit.....unless you started your training in 1976! Jobs have NOT been available "in excess" for well over five years! Not for freshly minted pilots.
Illya

Here's what I posted:

I started my training at the absolute best time in the job market: guys who graduated the year before me were hired straight into Navajos, and upgraded within six months. There was nothing that would have indicated to me that I wouldn't have the same bright future. Instead, when I finished my training, the recession was at its worst and there weren't even ramp jobs available.

Those are the facts. There was a hiring boom in 2006-7, and if you refuse to accept that then you're ignorant, delusional, or can't accept reality; regardless of which is the case, any of those would disqualify you from providing a rational and informed opinion. Besides, it would be amazing cognitive dissonance to simultaneously believe that there haven't been jobs for low-timers in forty years and that low-timers should hold out until given one of those non-existent flying jobs.

[Illya Kuryakin]

"Cognitive dissonance....." You went to school. I'll give you that. 99% of our faithful readers would have to google that one!
Stop justifying what you did to me. I don't care. Justify it to yourself. You're the one working the ramp for the next year or more.
Any which way it goes, I wish you every success in your endeavours. Thanks for the debate. One question though remains. How do guys taking a year or more away from "hands on" keep their skill levels up?
I admit, I don't like the way companies take advantage of the over abundance of willing labour ( you and your peers) rather than paying non pilots, and hiring pilots as ground workers. The fact that "that's the way it is..." doesn't make it right.
Illya

[North Shore]

Illya,

Define 'Take advantage' please? I can see both sides of this, but from a company's point of view, if they hire a 200hr wonder to . bags for a season, pay them fairly, and in the process, get a look at a person's general behaviour as an employee, how is that a bad thing?

And, how did you start out? Right seat in the -3? Back in the old days ( ) I was always told that was a 'load up, buckle up, gear up and shut up' position, while the skygod in the left called the shots...

[Diadem]

"Cognitive dissonance....." You went to school. I'll give you that. 99% of our faithful readers would have to google that one!
Stop justifying what you did to me. I don't care. Justify it to yourself. You're the one working the ramp for the next year or more.
Any which way it goes, I wish you every success in your endeavours. Thanks for the debate. One question though remains. How do guys taking a year or more away from "hands on" keep their skill levels up?
I admit, I don't like the way companies take advantage of the over abundance of willing labour ( you and your peers) rather than paying non pilots, and hiring pilots as ground workers. The fact that "that's the way it is..." doesn't make it right.
Illya

I don't have to justify it to myself because I don't regret working the ramp; the only thing I wish did differently was to go after those jobs from the beginning instead of focusing solely on flying positions for the first few months. I spent a year providing labour to a company which provided me with money in return, and within a year (yes, it was in writing) I had a PPC on a high-performance twin turbine. I was provided training before my ride, so I had time to get proficient; frankly, I don't think it would have mattered whether I started flying the day I joined the company, because the step up to that aircraft was so large that no amount of flying on a light piston would have prepared me. I took advantage of that opportunity, and now I'm a captain on a large turbine, so it worked out for me. If I'd been too stubborn to take anything but a flying job, or companies were turning away qualified applicants for ramp jobs just because they had pilot's licences, I'd still be making minimum wage in a dead-end job.
No one's answered me do far, so I'll ask again: If a pilot works the ramp solely for income, with no chance of flying, is there anything wrong with that? Should AC and WS turn away any applicants with a CPL? What if that pilot never intended to fly for work, and just wanted the extra training and higher licence? Would it be a problem if Buffalo didn't promote to flying positions, but still hired pilots to work the ramp because they needed money while waiting to get a call from Tindi? Where do we draw the line?

[Tail-Chaser]

Do whatever the hell you think is best, and throw the peanut gallery behind a concrete wall where they belong. It's a completely hypothetical argument that has little to no effect on reality anyway.