"Common Sense, are You Born With it it or Screwed Forever?"

[single_swine_herder]

Education .... who the hell needs that "book learnin'" anyway?

Just get out there and teach yourself stuff and if you survive, you must be doing things right ....

Sounds like Ricky from Trailer Park Boys has this whole pilot training aptitude and attitude thing figured out.

http://youtu.be/zEG59EgJZLY

Conversely, even Jethro Bodine appears to benefited from a little fancy book learnin'

http://youtu.be/pkZLFwPPYHw

[Shiny Side Up]

Just get out there and teach yourself stuff and if you survive, you must be doing things right ....

No man is so foolish but he may sometimes give another good counsel, and no man so wise that he may not easily err if he takes no other counsel than his own. He that is taught only by himself has a fool for a master.


-Hunter S. Thompson

With "book learning" its important to remember that books are merely written by people and it is also important to differentiate what is fact in books and what is opinion. I would guess that it is possible to learn how to fly by taking the facts that lie hidden in your average AFM, and the good advice that is in the FTM. Reading merely has the additional hurdle for learning that most people have poor reading comprehension (or lack the ability to read altogether), so has similar problems to person to person communication.

It should be said that few people learn to fly - or anything about flying directly on their own with no outside influence. I would speculate that any who did take the "just wing it" approach have probably removed themselves from the gene pool. Humans learn by watching, thinking, then doing. We're not hardwired to fly like birds are.

[PilotDAR]

As I think about the various posts, and particularly Dockjock's, I am reminded that it might not so much be "common" sense, but "appropriate" sense. As an example, "common sense" would tell you that when you put the engine way up high, as is the case with a Lake Amphibian, the aircraft would be prone to tucking under with applications of power. I hear many people tell me this using their common sense. Then I ask how many hours they have flying them, and often hear hums and haws, and sometimes "never" as a part of the answer. "Appropriate sense" would tell a person that being a certified and very popular aircraft, it did not get that way with nasty habits as those implied.

Pilots just love to talk, and tell you about planes. Sometimes they're right. Manufacturers are required to write about their planes, and they are always right! (well, the approved part of a Flight Manual anyway, we'll leave optimistic performance advertising aside for the moment).

If your "common sense" or teachings conflict with the contents of the Flight Manual, your common sense needs adjusting or enhancing. I hope that appropriate sense leads people to avoid being impromptu test pilots, or developing their own procedures, when someone else has already found the "right way". If something does not seem right, question it via an appropriate path, but don't rule it out in isolation from wisdom and experience.

But their are some real basics - make sure the aircraft is in the configuration necessary for the next phase of flight. If a pilot cannot be trusted to get that right, something is basically inadequate with that person.

Humans learn by watching, thinking, then doing

If you're going to say "....watching or reading [the authoritative materiel], thinking.... I would agree. But, a person can learn a lot in isolation from any other person, if provided the adequate resources....

[single_swine_herder]

Now there youse guys go. More uh thet stuff thet comes from them pesky bookz agin from that DAR fella.

I'll bet ya muh best squirrel gun thet he's got hiz self a hole bunch uh that there book learnin stuff under his belt.

'Course, I ain't seen im fix a broken bear trap yet, so who knows iffin he really knows anythin worthwhile.

[PilotDAR]

he's got hiz self a hole bunch uh that there book learnin stuff under his belt.

'Course, I ain't seen im fix a broken bear trap yet, so who knows iffin he really knows anythin worthwhile.

Well, really, not so much! I did graduate high school, as all people should, I earned a few licenses, and I am a TC DAR, but my real learning is from nearly four decades of fixing and flying them, and recovering wrecks. The the reading I have done is mostly that necessary to meet the requirements to accomplish the flying and approving.

A few other posters here will easily exceed my "learnin stuff under the belt" (and flying and fixing hours too!).....

[Shiny Side Up]

Humans learn by watching, thinking, then doing

If you're going to say "....watching or reading [the authoritative materiel], thinking.... I would agree. But, a person can learn a lot in isolation from any other person, if provided the adequate resources....

Of course, those "adequate resourses" come from other people. Its not like anyone is out there still doing the original Daedelus thing. Though that is how Clyde Cessna learned to fly...

After repairs, Cessna attempted flight 13 more times, each time ending in some sort of failure. Finally on his 13th attempt, Cessna got a glimpse of hope as his aircraft bounced up into the air for a short time before crashing into the trees as he attempted to turn it. After his crash, Cessna exclaimed in frustration, "I'm going to fly this thing, then I'm going to set it afire and never have another thing to do with aeroplanes!".

I can't recomend that method though. Fortunately for the world he didn't do what he said he would. You have to admire that sort of persistence.

[PilotDAR]

Of course, those "adequate resources" come from other people.

Often, but not always. Sometimes you are into something new to you, and there is no one else around to help, and nothing to read about it (or no time). In that case, you draw upon the resource of your intelligence. If you do the right thing, and live, it was adequate!

I'm not the only one here who has had a plane turn on you in a completely unexpected way, and you had to figure it out, or something bad was imminent. Sometimes it's just you. Appropriate sense is really good right then, "common" sense might not be enough!

[Shiny Side Up]

Ah, but when you tread into unknown territory it helps to have a base knowledge of how to think deductively and analytically to solve the problem. Thinking that way is something learned. Your "intelligence" is going to be the sum total of all those learned things from prior experiences. Very few things are completely unknown, but those that are, and are life threatening, you're now into guessing territory. You might be able to make educated guesses, which puts you on slightly better footing, but they're still guesses. There is the blind element of chance that still lies within discovering something new.

Either way though, now were also diverging much into learning "sense" as much as we are having it.

[Dockjock]

iflyforpie I couldn't agree more. Book-only pilots, ones that go straight into an A320 once they punch their ticket scare the crap out of me. Of course they are screened for aptitude, personality, and so forth and you don't get accepted into a program like that unless you're a high achiever but there is a critical piece of one's body of knowledge missing if one never spent time flying single and twin light aircraft- for hire- for several years prior to stepping into even a turboprop airliner. Acquiring just the right amount of common sense, some might call it experience, before moving on is ideal. Too much you're into like pilotDAR says, "bear trap" territory. Knowing how many sheets of plywood can be strapped on the float of a beaver before you run out of rudder, for example (11) is not common sense, it is esoterica. Knowing that there is such a thing as rudder authority and how not having enough of it might affect your aircraft's performance is book learnin'. There is a balance. But like I said that kind of stuff is fun to reminisce about in the cockpit of an airliner, but it isn't really germane to the job. If you are in an airliner and they ask you how many sheets of plywood you can strap to the outside the correct answer is, "I don't know but let me look it up in the AOM."

[JungianJugular]

I love the AvCan logic:

Some people can get PhD's in Mathematics.
People are essentially equal.
Therefore all people can get PhD's in Mathematics.

I don't care what the AvCan Brain Trust (tm)
concludes, there are some people I don't even
trust to push my lawnmower.

About 20 years ago, I was instructing a nice
middle-aged woman for her PPL. With enormous
effort of both of us, I got her solo in a buck fifty.
But after considerable exposure to her, I concluded
that she was an accident waiting to happen. She
was a really nice lady - you just wouldn't want her
to ever use an electric drill.

I gently passed her off to another instructor, at
another school. After many attempts and failures
at both her written and flight tests, she finally got
a PPL. A victory for Canadian egalitarianism.

She buys a buck fifty and insists upon running 100LL
in it, despite the fact that it was designed for 80/87.
I mentioned to her that this might be a problem,
and maybe she should consider running mogas. But
I'm not too bright, and she ignored my advice.

So off to OSH she and her husband go. Stuck valve
causes a forced landing on a live firing range. Keep
in mind how stupid I am about the excessive lead.

After not getting shot, she and her husband conclude
that heading across Lake Michigan with a rough engine
is not the brightest idea, and head back home.

It's hazy, and she never learned to use the nav radios.
She's heading for Brampton, and starts taking instructions
from the unicom operator there, who tells her to land on
runway 33.

And she does. At Pearson, on the closed runway 33, making
workers run and somehow avoiding the equipment on the
closed runway.

She eventually takes off again, somehow gets home, and
TC fines her $100.

I am not making any of this up.

And, I knew that she was going to have trouble. She just
didn't have the "motorized equipment" gene. She wasn't
a bad person, she just was never genetically cut out to be
a pilot, despite what superior training she might recieve
from the AvCan Brain Trust (tm).

Can the AvCan Brain Trust (tm) teach a horse calculus?
Inquiring minds want to know.

That is *ucking crazy. It makes me wonder though - is that a story of a woman lacking common sense, or just outright stupid and lacking the knowledge and skills required to handle an aircraft? How the hell was she even licensed in the first place?

[PilotDAR]

I was thinking about this subject, and skills, as I mowed the runway this morning. I was listening to piano performed by Suzanne Ciani, and imagining her key strokes. I do not have piano skills, but I sure do appreciate nicely performed music. Perhaps I could play if I was trained, and practiced a lot, but I do not think it comes naturally to me. She was born with it, I would be screwed, were I to be on stage at a piano!

I can appreciate a skill I do not possess, and simply enjoy it, without worrying that I do not have it.

[Rookie50]

I was thinking about this subject, and skills, as I mowed the runway this morning. I was listening to piano performed by Suzanne Ciani, and imagining her key strokes. I do not have piano skills, but I sure do appreciate nicely performed music. Perhaps I could play if I was trained, and practiced a lot, but I do not think it comes naturally to me. She was born with it, I would be screwed, were I to be on stage at a piano!

I can appreciate a skill I do not possess, and simply enjoy it, without worrying that I do not have it.

Truly hoping you do not use a push mower -- or you'd still be at it today.

[PilotDAR]

The mower only gets pushed if I get it stuck in the spring. Cutting six acres, including the runway, and another two miles of paths, takes about six hours a week. It gives my time to think up responses to AvCanada posts!

[MacStork]

This one of the best posts that I have personally seen on AVCANADA. Well done fellow aviators.
I believe that COMMON SENSE can be taught to most people. It is not easy and you cannot accomplish this task in a few hours with a book and a few kind words. It starts with hanging around airports and talking with pilots, engineers and dispatchers. It starts with sweeping the hanger floor or pumping floats or cleaning wind shields. it starts with surrounding yourself with good, knowledgeable and experienced people in AVIATION. It starts with building relationships with good people in aviation .... and I mean the kind of relationships that will last a life time. Out of this will evolve a lot of common sense. The newbies, who pay attention to the advice and guidance that the older experienced people are trying to pass on to them, will be the ultimate benefactors of common sense.
Now I will admit that some people are naturally blessed with common sense and there are a few people, as this post as aptly demonstrated, who should be kept on a leash for their own protection. But, in general over time, COMMON SENSE can be taught and enhanced to most people.
Years ago, when I was first starting out as a new pilot, Don Thompson (the owner of Alert Bay Air Services) encouraged us to fly around at 50 feet above the water in the good weather. He went on to explain that in the winter, the poor weather conditions would force down to 50 feet, whether we wanted to be there or not. Now we were used to flying and navigating at 50 feet above the water. Most of us survived and went on to retire without ever having an accident. There were a few who did not make it. I would like to believe that they lacked a certain amount of common sense. The ones who did survive had a ton of it .... and we learned it from guys who had a lot more time and experience that we did. We, in turn, passed our knowledge and advice onto the new guys coming into the industry.
Today .... pilots can be taught how to operate very sophisticated airplanes ... some of them do not know how to fly, as we have seen on recent accidents. They were taught how to operate a big airplane .... but were never taught any COMMON SENSE and were never really taught how to fly. COMMON SENSE should be taught early in the careers of young aviators .... it will make all the difference.
Just my thoughts ....

[single_swine_herder]

Well described macstork.

The intangible referred to as "Common Sense" begins with aptitude and is developed in the crucible of the workplace through experience and training.

The aptitude characteristic is a combination of genetics and instinctive behaviours. The experience comes through exposure to situations, either through that disdained "book learnin' or hangar flying over coffee or brewskis, time in the cockpit looking outside while flying with a mentor, or doing it the hard way of being tossed into the deep end and making mistakes that almost kill you.

Can the experience be taught? Yes .... partially, after that you have to get out there and consolidate your feces.

Can aptitude be taught .... not in my opinion, but is a sliding scale from those who shouldn't be trusted with matches or sharp things, to people like . Yeager, Charles Lindberg, or other pioneers in this business.

Going back to my high school days, a new kid came into school that was already about 6' 4"in grade 9 and seemed to grow every month. Those of us who played basketball thought he was going to be our team saviour. During try-outs, he simply didn't have the aptitude .... couldn't dribble, missed 3 of 4 passes, and couldn't shoot hoops either.

Not everybody is suited to be a good pilot with "Common Sense" because of an insufficient entry level of aptitude.

Great thread folks, and thanks to everyone who contributed and to those who contemplated the question I posed.

[PilotDAR]

encouraged us to fly around at 50 feet above the water in the good weather. He went on to explain that in the winter, the poor weather conditions would force down to 50 feet, whether we wanted to be there or not.

Has me in mind of some excellent mentoring I received during my MD500 type training. Well beyond learning to handle the type, I was taught the practical common sense of some real world helicopter operations. I was instructed to fly down the lake at 50 feet, not far from shore. without notice I was told to turn toward shore, and reverse my course, while maintaining visual cues (not putting the shore behind me). The common sense I did not have yet was that this was possible - maneuvering wise. It was, and I learned, refining "common" for my sense.

But, this training was built upon thousands of hours of fixed wing flying experience, and lots of low level float flying, so this was an expansion of existing knowledge, not a whole new thing for me.

Perhaps it is the expanding breadth of "common", acquired with more learning, and life experience, which makes it easier for some to have common sense in a realm.

[Prodriver]

What really is going on is in some cases we are dealing with "Third generation stupid" they can't help it! Like Beber

[iflyforpie]

Third generation from what?

Like Danny Bonaduce!

[rigpiggy]

T
The ones who never do "get it" often become career self-limiting by getting out of the industry by being fired for incompetence or they end up dead .... hopefully alone in the airplane when they do themselves in when the self-created situation required greater skill or knowledge than was needed at the time.

And yet due to the HR matrix we have people flying for big red and others who shouldn't be allowed on an airplane to fly with 150+ in the back. Yes I know that some others in 703/704 also fit this description. Getting fired at AC is real hard once your in..... ACPA will fight for you on principle, and because they are required by their charter.

No I am far from perfect, and I screw up on occasion too. Thankfully between 2 of us we have 1semi functioning human being

[single_swine_herder]

The unfortunate part of a union shop is that union reps are required to defend the inept and incompetent as voraciously as a highly competent person who has "crossed" a middle manager somewhere and unjustly become a marked man.

That's great if you're the inept one, but really lousy if your among those around the boob that have to work with someone on a continual basis who struggles to maintain an exceptionally low personal standard and sees no reason to improve .... because he or she isn't the problem, its the system that is needlessly expecting too much that is at fault.

[MacStork]

I found this add on AvCanada ......

Executive Flight Centre (EFC) has been setting standards in aviation fuel and service for over forty years. Headquartered in Calgary, with operations in both Alberta and British Columbia, EFC offers a diverse range of aviation services to meet the needs of airport users. EFC also offers additional expertise and services to customers throughout Western Canada in the areas of Airport / Aerodrome Services and Aviation Real Estate Development. Our vision is to provide an excellent quality of service to all customers in the Aviation Industry by focusing on Safety, Quality, Consistency and Customer Service.

Our Fort McMurray location is seeking an experienced Aviation Professional as Base Director to support our growing and diverse operations.

Description:
The Base Director is responsible for the overall day-to-day, safe, efficient and effective operations and management of our Fuel, FBO, Air Carrier Ground Operations and Industrial Charter Terminal Facilities.

Responsibilities:
• Manage and oversee all operational aspects and ensure the safe and efficient operation of EFC’s FBO, Fuel, Air Carrier and Industrial Charter Terminal and Facilities at YMM.
• Ensure all regulatory, legislative and industry standards are met.
• Provide direction to YMM Mangers and staff.
• Oversee all fuelling operations, providing records of sales, Quality Assurance and sufficient supply.
• Prepare and manage the annual budgets and control expenditures, working within the parameters of approved budgets.
• Document and provide detailed, current records and reports of Base activities.
• Develop and maintain plans for the promotion and marketing of the EFC’s Base at YMM.
• Develop long term equipment and facility plans for the Base.
• Establish and maintain proper procedures and guidelines for handling hazards, concerns, and emergency situations.
• Conduct regular inspections and audits of the Base Operations, Fuel Facilities and Equipment, identifying and rectifying any hazards or concerns identified.
• Ensure Base is properly maintained in all weather conditions and all equipment and facilities are in good working order.
• Establish and maintain strong working relationship with all customers, senior management, tenants, leaseholders, community members and other key stakeholders.
• Act as an ambassador for the EFC, attending functions as required.
• Efficiently and effectively respond, direct and analyze customer or public inquires and concerns.
• Develop and implement new business strategies for creating or improving processes and procedures to improve corporate performance.
• Monitor departmental performance against goals to ensure that progress is being made and that corrective action is taken if necessary.
• Meet regularly with department heads and senior management, facilitating resolution of issues/problems between business units and/or departments.
• Responsible for maintaining appropriate staff levels to meet requirements of the department.
• Responsible for recruitment, hiring, terminations, time and attendance and performance management.
• Support ongoing development of positive morale and culture by setting and demonstrating a strong business ethic for dealing with employees, suppliers and customers.
• Analyze and report on the daily, monthly and annual Base key performance indicators and industry trends.
• Develop and implement strategies around improving the financial performance of the Base.
• Negotiate contracts with customers.
• Measure and monitor key customer service areas.
• Review and use the monthly statements to ensure expense control and proactively plan service and sales goals.
• Examines reports (e.g., inventory, sales and daily operational reports) to determine the operational activities of the Base and ensure optimum performance.
• Manage and oversee commuter travel and employee accommodations.
• Ensure exceptional customer service and a pleasurable client experience.
• Comply with and participate in the Company’s Health & Safety programs and Quality Systems
• Other duties as required.

Education/ Training:
• Post-secondary education in the areas of Business Administration or Aviation Management is preferred.

Qualifications/Experience:
• Minimum of 10 years of progressive levels of responsibility related to aviation, FBO, air carrier operations or Fuel management experience.
• Demonstrated management and leadership capabilities.
• Highly developed understanding of industry regulations, standards and best practices.
• Excellent organizational and interpersonal skills.
• Excellent communication skills, both verbal and written.
• Ability to work with competing priorities and to strict deadlines.
• Demonstrated computer proficiency with multiple software applications.
• Demonstrated marketing, accounting and budgeting experience.
• Highly developed analytical and problem-solving skills.
• Customer focused and service driven.
• Valid driver’s license and ability to obtain an airport security clearance.

Executive Flight Centre offers competitive compensation and a comprehensive benefits package, an incredible work environment, and career advancement opportunities. Please visit our web site at http://www.efcaviation.ca/ for a complete description of our company and to view other career opportunities.

To apply for this position, please send your resume and cover letter to careers4u@efcaviation.ca indicating the position title and location you are applying for in your subject line.

We thank all applicants for their interest in Executive Flight Centre; however, only candidates selected for interviews will be contacted.



All this time i have thought the woes of AVIATION were basically PILOT issues .... WRONG! One of the greatest problems in AVIATION today are the HR people that have taken over the hiring in all aviation departments. This one is a classic example of incompetence, stupidity and ignorance all wrapped up into on dumb assed HR person. The job is in Fort MAC .... anyone possessing all of the above qualifications is not going to Fort Mac for starting wages. Perhaps ....Air Canada or West Jet maybe looking for someone with this pedigree as a future CEO.
You need to ask two questions for this job ..... First ...do you know the difference between Avgas and Jet Fuel? Second .... are you drug free? Common sense would dictate that a good ole Saskatchewan farm boy would be perfect for this job.
Where do they find these idiots?

I realize this could be the start of another thread ...but this one was so good .... I had to add this!

[iflyforpie]

Are you as drunk as I am?

[complexintentions]

I get the point being made about HR - quite possibly the most useless, poisonous department in any company.

But the job listed hardly seems like a entry-level position. I mean a fuel jockey doesn't usually "prepare and manage the annual budget".

Maybe not a good example of what you're trying to illustrate.

[Meatservo]

We're not hardwired to fly like birds are.

Believe it or not, birds are not hardwired to fly. Bugs are, but birds have to learn. They have the advantage of having bodies that CAN fly, very efficiently, and they have an instinct to flail their arms when they are excited or panic. I have had the opportunity to observe several species of baby bird, who for one reason or another are deprived of their parents, learn to fly through being rehabilitated for the wild. Also I have observed several species of domesticated parrot teach themselves to fly. It's fairly amusing. They all eventually figure it out, but the learning process is very funny to watch. Some birds are separated from their parents late enough that they have seen other birds flying. These ones merely need to figure out how to do it themselves. Other birds have no idea at all that flying is even a thing that can happen, until they fall, or just lift off one day while they are flapping their wings. It's quite a process.

[Colonel Sanders]

I have observed several species of domesticated parrot teach themselves to fly

Stop and think for a moment. A parrot is not
the most intelligent creature on the planet, and
it can figure out how to teach itself to fly.

Human beings are (supposedly) at least 10x
smarter than a parrot, so it is certainly within
their capability to teach themselves how to fly,
without an instructor facebooking on his smartphone.

Many, many pilots through history have taught
themselves how to fly.

I hold the position that every pilot teaches
themselves to fly. At first, they have an instructor
sitting in the right seat, who should shut up, not
touch the controls, and let the student teach himself
how to fly.

The instructor's job is to simply stop the student from
trying to kill himself (or permanently damage the
aircraft).

Before and after the flight, the instructor should talk
to the student about the flight, but this is rarely done
in an effective or efficient manner.

After the student goes solo, considerable learning
still occurs in the cockpit despite the lack of an
instructor in the right seat. Despite the disdain
for PIC time here, I consider this self-taught
learning crucial for a new pilot. You would have
great difficulty finding a pilot who had the same skills
and knowledge at 50TT vs 1000PIC, despite the
opinions of people here, who think the best career
development occurs with minimum PIC.


PS on the other thread, HR departments are
generic and parasitic. They know nothing about
the operations of the company they work for,
and produce no value. Their job is to simply
protect the company from the employees.
The larger the company, the worse the HR
department.

Year ago, when I was working at cisco as
an engineer in San Jose, I was told that the
current software star in the company had
failed his HR interview. Wasn't outgoing
enough, or something. What the HR people
knew about software, you could write in large
capital letters inside a matchbook covers.

The engineers took over, overruled HR, hired
him, and he went on to be a very highly paid
star at cisco, despite the fact that he was a quiet
fellow that didn't dazzle the cows in HR.

HR people know nothing, and do damage to
the company.