To all Canadian pilots who applied to work at Sunwing.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Don't fall into that trap people. Those that want to start a language issue at Transat discussion can start their own threads. See how many reads and replies they get when they do.

How strange that those who always post about the so called French discrimination at Transat are the same who always defend foreign pilot use at Sunwing. I just ignore them. Its the same people who also accuse me of being paid by Transat for fighting the Foreign pilot issue.
I'm surprised they have not yet mentioned my religious beliefs, my sexual orientation or any of my numerous vices. How relevant these would be in this thread.......

To all Canadian pilots who applied at Sunwing and were not hired: Sunwing is about to hire 120 TFW pilots, many of which paid for their type ratings in Europe and who are getting paid less than what a Canadian pilot would get paid for the same work. Junior Travel Service First Officers barely earn 1200 Euros a month after paying out of pocket for their B-737 type ratings. Hiring a TFW and paying him less than a Canadian is illegal. Complain to ESDC about it.

http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Travel_Service

FO top EUR 3200,- 15/Dec/13
FO base EUR 1200,- (Junior FO's salary for first 18 months EUR 660 EUR) 1

They even list Winnipeg and Saskatoon as bases on this website.

Prohibiting Canadians from being seasonal captains and then hiring Foreign seasonal Captains is illegal. It is a violation of Article 7 of the Human Rights Act which prohibits discriminating based on ethnic origin or nationality. In this case, you Canadians are being discriminated against. So file a complaint to the Human Rights Commissioner and let ESDC know about it. I fail to see how Sunwing can have hiring practices which are contrary to the laws of this country but still have their TFW applications approved as though everything was legal.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/PDF/h-6.pdf

3. (1) For all purposes of this Act, the prohibited grounds of discrimination are race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, family status, disability and conviction for an offence for which a pardon has been granted or in respect of which a record suspension has been ordered.

7. It is a discriminatory practice, directly or indirectly,
(a) to refuse to employ or continue to employ any individual, or
(b) in the course of employment, to differentiate adversely in relation to an employee on a prohibited ground of discrimination.

Here you can downlaod the Collective Agreement between Suwing Airlines and its pilots:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lqnch4e6du5ek ... No%202.pdf

Two quotes from the CA:

6.8.1 d) Seasonal Canadian Flight Crew Member shall be First Officers only.

6.9.1 c) The Company will endeavor not to contract more Foreign Flight Crew Member Captains
than Foreign Flight Crew Member First Officers. The Company will have meaningful consultation with the Union if there is a need to bring in more Foreign Flight Crew Member Captains than Foreign Flight Crew Member First Officers. The Company will ensure that all qualified First Officers have been upgraded if Foreign Flight Crew Member Captains exceed Foreign Flight Crew Member First Officers

[Jean-Luc Monette]

Don't fall into that trap people.

+1

Using insults gets us nowhere, my 0.02$.

[gonnabeapilot]

Gilles, below are excerpts of two of the posts you have made recently in this thread. The first is where I think you make your point the best. Simply the facts as they stand with very little editorializing. (That being said, it does say that your post was edited 4 times so I'm not sure how accurate these facts were when originally posted). The second is where I think you start to lose people in your argument. Saying that the current situation at Sunwing borders on a violation of the Human Rights Act is just a bit of an over-reach in my opinion and makes you come off as a zealot. This is just one of the more recent examples of you reaching to an extreme in order to try and make your point and part of the reason why there are some on this board who try to dismiss you completely instead of discussing some of the (very valid) points you bring up.

But again, I don't think it's important to you to follow facts.

You guys are a riot, always accusing me of lying etc. What facts have you provided ?

Lets go over my statements, one by one. Please correct me where I am wrong...

Prohibiting Canadians from being seasonal captains and then hiring Foreign seasonal Captains is illegal. It is a violation of Article 7 of the Human Rights Act which prohibits discriminating based on ethnic origin or nationality. In this case, you Canadians are being discriminated against. So file a complaint to the Human Rights Commissioner and let ESDC know about it. I fail to see how Sunwing can have hiring practices which are contrary to the laws of this country but still have their TFW applications approved as though everything was legal.

Now in response to the question you asked in your first post, I will go over the points you have raised and try to address them as best as I can.:

1) I said Sunwing will hire 120 TFW pilots next winter. True or False ?
2) I said that half or more of those TFW pilots will be hired as Captains. True or False ?]

Yes, both of these points are true. What's open to debate is the context in which they are framed in. If one chooses to focus simply on absolutes and ignore context, both of these points can be taken as bad news. However I have found that many people like to ignore the context of facts because context always makes it more difficult to deal in absolutes and therefore more difficult to frame them as something evil versus something good. It is this matter of context and perspective where I tend to find issue with some of your posts and where we will most likely simply have to agree to disagree.

Is Sunwing planning on hiring 120 TFW pilots next winter? Yes, however as I'm sure you're aware, this number has held steady over the last several seasons even though Sunwing has almost doubled the size of its winter program. Why has this number held steady in the face of incredible growth? It is due to the fact that Sunwing has been making large efforts to hire Canadians pilots in both a seasonal and full time capacity. So is 120 TFW pilots still a big number? Yes, it is. But that number hasn't changed for a while. What has changed? The ratio between TFW pilots and Canadian pilots being used by Sunwing to operate the winter schedule has changed dramatically and in a way that's good for Canadians. Focussing on the number while ignoring the ratio only paints half the picture.

Are half or more of those TFW pilots being hired as Captains? Yes and based on the CBA and what is currently going on with upgrades at Sunwing, that number should be exactly half and no more. Why half? Because when it comes to sending pilots back and forth between Europe, the question has always been approached as requiring a certain number of crews and not pilots. This is good for Canadians because it means that when Sunwing pilots head to Europe, they are always headed there as crews. Otherwise everyone would just be sending FOs back and forth. The fact of the matter is that the pilot unions on both sides of the Atlantic have decided that it is more beneficial to have one person serve as a Captain year round then to continually seasonally upgrade/downgrade that person. Some may disagree with this but those directly impacted by it do not and therefore it can also be seen as something good for Canadians as it's Canadians who are also asking for it.

3) I said that all Canadian seasonal contract pilots will be hired as First Officers, even if they were previously Captains on the 737NG for another airline. True or False ?
4) I said that the Sunwing Collective agreement with its pilots prohibits Canadian seasonal contract pilots to be Captains. True or False ?
5) I said that the Sunwing Collective Agreement with its pilots allows Foreign seasonal contract pilots to be Captains. True or False ?
6) I said that even if Sunwing finds a certain number of Canadian B737NG type rated pilots to hire, these will be hired as non rated first officers and will not reduce the number of type rated foreign pilots (120) Sunwing intends to hire. True or False ?

These points are also all true, however again the context is important. These sections of the Sunwing CBA that you quote were put there at the request of Sunwing pilots and were done to protect the interests of Canadian pilots. When Sunwing began to explore the idea of using Canadian pilots on a seasonal basis, there was a legitimate fear by the Sunwing pilot group that these Canadian contractors would be used to erode the working conditions of the permanent pilots at Sunwing... essentially creating a cheaper workforce within a workforce.

One measure that was felt was key to prevent this from happening was ensuring that the Company was only permitted to hire Canadian seasonal pilots as First Officers. It was done with the idea that as the company continued to grow there would be a need for more Captains. Since the company is only permitted to upgrade from its permanent staff, it would therefore be forced to hire more Canadians into permanent positions in order to increase the pool of eligible candidates. Since the Sunwing CBA also guarantees that Canadians who are hired as seasonal pilots must be given the first shot at any open permanent positions, it means that the company is pressured into hiring more and more Canadian seasonal pilots on a full time basis in order to meet the demand for qualified Captains. It creates a natural career progression for Canadians who are being hired as seasonal pilots and that is beneficial to them. Contrary to assertations made on here, any Canadian can become a Captain at Sunwing.... they'll just have to wait until their seniority number affords them that privilege.

This measure has accomplished exactly what it was supposed to. Over the last several years, a large number of Canadians who were hired on a seasonal basis have been taken on full time. A number of these pilots are now in the position where they will now be receiving an upgrade at Sunwing but as full time employees and not as contractors. If the Sunwing pilots had not insisted on this clause being placed into the CBA may there have been a small handful of pilots who would have been hired on as seasonal Sunwing Captains? Yes. But doing so would have also put downward pressure on the salaries and working conditions of every single Captain at every airline in the country including Sunwing. So what better serves the greater good of Canadian pilots? Well that's a fine balancing act and I don't pretend to know the answer but based on the outrage we have seen from Canadian pilots over the WAWCON of Rouge, Encore etc... I think that the choice made by the Sunwing pilot group was the correct one.

7) I said that Sunwing advertised for 120 type rated pilots, captains and first officers, and that this is a fake ad meant only to satisfy ESDC advertising requirements, and that the ad mean to hire Canadians is the other one, for non rated First Officers, even if the Canadians are Boeing 737NG captains. True or False

Yes, this ad was put out to help satisfy ESDC requirements but to call it fake is a bit of a stretch. Sunwing would obviously prefer to hire candidates with type ratings over those who have never flown a jet and given that upgrade times are currently sitting at less than 2 years I think that giving priority to type rated Captains over other pilots also makes sense. The fact that these type rated Captains will still have to sit in the right seat doesn't make the ad fake, it just means that type rated Captains will have to deal with the same reality when it comes to upgrades as they would have if they had been hired at WestJet.

As I said, I know we will most likely have to agree to disagree, but the fact is that although these facts are true, the context behind them isn't fully explained. Reading various posts on these threads makes it sound like every single action taken by Sunwing is done to intentionally screw some poor Canadian Navajo pilot out of the jet job it is their god given right as a Canadian pilot to have. They also make it sound like all of these decisions are made to serve mythical evil European corporate masters and have nothing to do with growing a business. This issue is a very complicated one and anything that is presented as an absolute with no context should not be taken at face value. Speaking of context, I would also encourage people to try and take a step back to look at the bigger picture every now and then. So often this debate focuses on pilots and nothing more. One fact that is almost always ignored is the fact that bringing in 2 TFW pilots to crew one aircraft means that 4 Canadian FAs, 1 Canadian fueller, 4 Canadian rampies, 2 Canadian gate agents, and 1 Canadian AME are also hired to work that flight. That's not even getting into all the other employment benefits that come from the flight operating (catering, etc...) So is temporarily employing 2 European pilots so that 12+ Canadians can be gainfully employed in jobs in a well paying aviation sector a bad thing? Well again, that's a balancing act. But remember, when the government looks at these issues, they are looking at the big picture... even if so many others don't.

[nottellin]

The above post in my opinion, is a pretty biased opinion,

This entire practice of hiring TFW's is driving down pilot wages for us all.

THATS THE BIG PICTURE

[complexintentions]

As far as the ratio of Canadians to TFW's employed, I would bet my last dollar that it has only improved largely due to the huge pressure put on the whole TFW program and on the companies using these practices. (Thank you, Mr. Hudicourt!)

Please don't try and sell it as Sunwing trying to do the right thing, people aren't stupid. They would have quietly expanded it at the same rate the Harper government expanded the whole program if they hadn't been exposed.

[garfield]

Hiring TFW pilots would be acceptable if there was no pilots available in Canada. They do it in China because they don't have enough pilots and that's fair.

I wonder how many CV's Sunwing had received when they posted their add........

[gonnabeapilot]

The above post in my opinion, is a pretty biased opinion,

This entire practice of hiring TFW's is driving down pilot wages for us all.

THATS THE BIG PICTURE

I'd be interested to hear why you feel this is the case. The fact of the matter is that in the case of Sunwing, employing a TFW is much more costly than employing a Canadian pilot. It has been pointed out in this thread that Travel Service pilots are not the best paid pilots in Europe. However what is not mentioned is that they are given an additional 100 euros/day to supplement their salaries while they are in Canada which equals about $4350/month or $52,200/year. So in reality, you could pay a TFW salary of $0 and with the $145/day they would still be costing Sunwing about the equivalent of a new hire Canadian F/O. The fact that they are making any salary at all means that it gives room for Canadian pilots to negotiate better terms of employment and still remain competitive in the international marketplace. If Sunwing pilots are able to increase improved WAWCON while remaining competitive as a labour force, it gives other Canadian airlines bargaining power to do the same... to me, this is the complete opposite of what you claim.

As far as the ratio of Canadians to TFW's employed, I would bet my last dollar that it has only improved largely due to the huge pressure put on the whole TFW program and on the companies using these practices. (Thank you, Mr. Hudicourt!)

Please don't try and sell it as Sunwing trying to do the right thing, people aren't stupid. They would have quietly expanded it at the same rate the Harper government expanded the whole program if they hadn't been exposed.

You are free to believe whatever you like. I am not going to pretend that M. Hudicourt hasn't influenced the way the issue has evolved over the years. He has been very vocal and has been able to raise some very valid concerns. But you would be naïve to think that things have evolved the way they have without any influence from the Sunwing pilot group or the Sunwing management team. Again, this is an example of people choosing to believe that reality is better reflected by the fact that every single person at Sunwing has zero interest in bettering the interests of Canadian pilots instead of accepting the fact that perhaps there are internal forces at play at Sunwing that aren't fully broadcast on internet forums and that maybe, just maybe, the employees and Sunwing are working to improve the original business model that Sunwing (and its predecessors) were founded on to the benefit of all..

[nottellin]

Gonnabeapilot,

Unfortunately I nor you have Sunwings full financials in order to break it down to determine what they are actually paying for TFW's vs hiring a Canadian, But if you can honestly sit there and tell me that the entire practice, no matter what industry you are in of bringing in TFW's does not artificially suppress wages, I think that's a very tough position to defend. I don't care if it is Sunwing, Transat or helicopter operations that are doing it, it is wrong and it is dragging on the Canadian economy. The only people it benefits are business owners and does nothing but harm to labor, which is what we are.

[monkey]

Hard to say it suppresses wages, not sure where your getting that from. The Thompson/TUI pilots are well paid, Travel Service guys receive additional compensation as gonnabeapilot pointed out. If you want to look at wage suppression best look to the regionals.

[FICU]

Did you factor in the cost of an NG type rating? Suwing saves big on not paying to type a Canadian pilot over a TFW.

If Sunwing did have to type a TFW would they still be paying them "well"?

[monkey]

Yeah I get that part about type ratings, but wage suppression is different.

For the most part their contracts are what they negotiate with their parent company, so out of SWG hands.

[BverLuver]

so out of SWG hands.

Ah Monkey,

No, it's not! They are not forced to hire this group of people! I have no dog in this fight as they say, but marginalizing the vested costs of type and recurrent training vs. Importing TFW's is simply off base.

BL

[aerosexual]

Did you factor in the cost of an NG type rating? Suwing saves big on not paying to type a Canadian pilot over a TFW.

If Sunwing did have to type a TFW would they still be paying them "well"?

The cost of housing, car rentals and per diems for the foreign pilots coming to Canada offsets the cost of a type rating. Sunwing benefits from the use of the TFW program due to the logistics of hiring and training the additional pilots required for the winter season versus the summer.

Managing the accordion fleet is the challenge for Sunwing, and they got the brilliant idea of using the TFW program after Canjet initially did so on behalf of the Transat Group. Now we are all trying to see a return in the balance between Sunwing pilots going overseas in the summer versus foreign pilots coming to Sunwing in the winter. Thankfully it is going in that direction.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Now we are all trying to see a return in the balance between Sunwing pilots going overseas in the summer versus foreign pilots coming to Sunwing in the winter. Thankfully it is going in that direction.

False.

Sunwing sent four wet-leases to Europe in 2012. They sent seven in 2013. They are back down to 4 this summer. Why ? Because the Europeans are clamping down on this business of foreign pilots.

At first EASA, the European Aviation Authority, would no longer allow Foreign licence validations to fly European registered aircraft. Which is why Suwning was sending only wet-leases to Europe after 2010.
Then the Europeans clamped down on foreign wet-leases also, requiring that the crews of foreign aircraft on wet-lease in Europe be licensed in Europe.

Sunwing, with the help of Thomson, was able to negotiate a temporary waiver and is still trying hard to turn that temporary waiver into a more permanent agreement that would allow Sunwing aircraft to work on wet-leases in Europe without requiring its pilots to obtain an EASA licence and Medical.

What arguments is Sunwing using to try to convince the Europeans ? The very permissiveness of Transport Canada that allows anything Sunwing asks of them as far as Foreign Licence validation, this very permissiveness that I have been denouncing here in Canada. In Canada, Transport Canada sees nothing wrong with a Part VII carrier such as Sunwing if said carrier has more foreign licensed pilots flying with European licenses on FLVC than Canadian licensed pilots. Transport Canada thinks that a foreign licensed pilot with a Transport Canada issued Licence Validation is equal to a Canadian licensed pilot.

So in essence, Sunwing is attempting to demonstrate to the Europeans that European pilots are the ones who benefit the most from this exchange and that clamping down on foreign pilots in Europe, in the case of Sunwing, would in fact harm European companies and European pilots more than it would harm Canadian pilots. Which is true.

Thanks to Transport Canada's permissiveness as far as Foreign Licence Validations, the Europeans are listening and Sunwing hopes to reach an agreement with the Europeans for 2015.

If they do not, well that will be the end of Canadian wet-leases to Europe.

I am for reciprocal agreements if they are equal. And here is the only way way reciprocal agreements would work:

Sunwing only needs 6 aircraft in Canada in the summer but needs to have 32 aircraft in Canada in the winter. There is a difference of 26 aircraft. That difference needs to be slit right down the middle between Sunwing and its European partners, at 13 aircraft.

Sunwing would thus need 19 full time aircraft with crews to operate those 19 full time aircraft, so about 300 full time pilots.

In the summer, Sunwing would keep 6 aircraft to service its limited summer routes in North American and send 13 aircraft and crews to Europe on wet-lease.
In the winter, it would call back all its deployed aircraft and crews and import 13 additional European aircraft in crews.

This is the only real reciprocity and the only way it can work. If Sunwing business model is to have 6 aircraft in the summer and 32 aircraft in the winter, I will not be convinced that it has the intention to do any kind of even and fair reciprocity with European airlines until I see what I described above:

A fleet of 19 full time aircraft and 300+ full time pilots. If Sunwing's Canadian winter business can handle 34 winter aircraft and still only 6 summer aircraft , then it needs to have 20 full time aircraft and about 320+ full time Canadian pilots.

As long as I do not see what I described above, I know that their only intention will be to weasel their way through any kind of regulatory restrictions government agencies on both sides of the Atlantic try to throw their way.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

It has been pointed out in this thread that Travel Service pilots are not the best paid pilots in Europe. However what is not mentioned is that they are given an additional 100 euros/day to supplement their salaries while they are in Canada which equals about $4350/month or $52,200/year. So in reality, you could pay a TFW salary of $0 and with the $145/day they would still be costing Sunwing about the equivalent of a new hire Canadian F/O.

gonnabeapilot,

It has been pointed out to me that some of the moneys paid out by Sunwing to Travel Service Airlines and that were meant to be collected by the pilots, were never received by the pilots and kept by the Company. This would also include overtime pay for overtime flown in Canada. It seems that after Travel Service pilots refused to fly overtime, Sunwing was made aware of what was happening, at which time Travel Service relented and accepted to pay part of those moneys to its pilots.

Do you know that having a third party pocket part of a TFW's salary is illegal in Canada ? Yet their is a difference between what Sunwing pays Travel Service for the use of Travel Service pilots and what Travel Service pilots actually collect........

They cannot speak publicly because they would face dire consequences, but I even speak on behalf of Czech Travel Service pilots now.......

[nottellin]

Monkey, a quick google search will provide quite a bit of data on the issue

Here is an article from the Globe and Mail,

the opening paragraph below,

The growth of Canada’s temporary foreign worker program has created distortions in the labour market, from downward pressure on wages in some sectors to acting as a disincentive to train workers, economists say.

here is the link

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... e11172991/

It boils down to supply and demand, if there are pilots being brought in to fill Canadian jobs then there is less opportunities for Canadians, therefore it is harder for me to go to my employer and say hey, I have a job offer at another company, how about a few extra $'s and I will stick around?" or, that I can get a job at a company that is presently bringing in TFW's and gain a valuable type rating, creating an opportunity at the company I am presently working for for another pilot to climb the career ladder, either way it creates growth and puts upward pressure on wages.

This is a macroeconomic issue, we need to zoom out on look at all the ramifications of this practice.

[aerosexual]

Now we are all trying to see a return in the balance between Sunwing pilots going overseas in the summer versus foreign pilots coming to Sunwing in the winter. Thankfully it is going in that direction.

False.

Sunwing sent four wet-leases to Europe in 2012. They sent seven in 2013. They are back down to 4 this summer. Why ? Because the Europeans are clamping down on this business of foreign pilots.

At first EASA, the European Aviation Authority, would no longer allow Foreign licence validations to fly European registered aircraft. Which is why Suwning was sending only wet-leases to Europe after 2010.
Then the Europeans clamped down on foreign wet-leases also, requiring that the crews of foreign aircraft on wet-lease in Europe be licensed in Europe.

Sunwing, with the help of Thomson, was able to negotiate a temporary waiver and is still trying hard to turn that temporary waiver into a more permanent agreement that would allow Sunwing aircraft to work on wet-leases in Europe without requiring its pilots to obtain an EASA licence and Medical.

What arguments is Sunwing using to try to convince the Europeans ? The very permissiveness of Transport Canada that allows anything Sunwing asks of them as far as Foreign Licence validation, this very permissiveness that I have been denouncing here in Canada. In Canada, Transport Canada sees nothing wrong with a Part VII carrier such as Sunwing if said carrier has more foreign licensed pilots flying with European licenses on FLVC than Canadian licensed pilots. Transport Canada thinks that a foreign licensed pilot with a Transport Canada issued Licence Validation is equal to a Canadian licensed pilot.

So in essence, Sunwing is attempting to demonstrate to the Europeans that European pilots are the ones who benefit the most from this exchange and that clamping down on foreign pilots in Europe, in the case of Sunwing, would in fact harm European companies and European pilots more than it would harm Canadian pilots. Which is true.

Thanks to Transport Canada's permissiveness as far as Foreign Licence Validations, the Europeans are listening and Sunwing hopes to reach an agreement with the Europeans for 2015.

If they do not, well that will be the end of Canadian wet-leases to Europe.

I am for reciprocal agreements if they are equal. And here is the only way way reciprocal agreements would work:

Sunwing only needs 6 aircraft in Canada in the summer but needs to have 32 aircraft in Canada in the winter. There is a difference of 26 aircraft. That difference needs to be slit right down the middle between Sunwing and its European partners, at 13 aircraft.

Sunwing would thus need 19 full time aircraft with crews to operate those 19 full time aircraft, so about 300 full time pilots.

In the summer, Sunwing would keep 6 aircraft to service its limited summer routes in North American and send 13 aircraft and crews to Europe on wet-lease.
In the winter, it would call back all its deployed aircraft and crews and import 13 additional European aircraft in crews.

This is the only real reciprocity and the only way it can work. If Sunwing business model is to have 6 aircraft in the summer and 32 aircraft in the winter, I will not be convinced that it has the intention to do any kind of even and fair reciprocity with European airlines until I see what I described above:

A fleet of 19 full time aircraft and 300+ full time pilots. If Sunwing's Canadian winter business can handle 34 winter aircraft and still only 6 summer aircraft , then it needs to have 20 full time aircraft and about 320+ full time Canadian pilots.

As long as I do not see what I described above, I know that their only intention will be to weasel their way through any kind of regulatory restrictions government agencies on both sides of the Atlantic try to throw their way.

No Gilles, not false. You are entitled to interpret the situation as you see fit, but it is unfortunate that you feel it necessary to state your interpretations as facts. By doing this, you are not trying to find common ground with Sunwing pilots. I've stated numerous times that we essentially have the same goals, but the constant attack on Sunwing based on your interpretations causes more harm than good.

- It has already been explained to you why four airplanes instead of seven went over this summer. You choose to ignore this.
- I love your "permissiveness of Transport Canada" story. This is your theory. Do not state it as fact
- I also love how you, a pilot for a competitor, feel that only you know the right answer to crew Sunwing's fleet. There are numerous ways to reach the goal of true reciprocity
- ALPA (Air Transat's and Canjet's pilot union) should have fought the TFW issue when Canjet, on behalf of the Transat group, initiated this supposed illegal use of the program. If Canjet, on behalf of the Transat group had not initiated the use of the TFW program, perhaps we would not be having this discussion with respect to the Sunwing group. Of course, the truth is that the use of the TFW program is not as illegal as perhaps you envision, and Sunwing took advantage of the situation to their benefit. As much as I hate the use of TFW for for foreign pilots at Sunwing, I cannot blame the company for doing this as it has proven to be a legitimate use of the program.

As I've stated, which you claim is false, things are going in the right direction, more Canadian pilots are being hired, and it looks like more permanent positions are on the horizon. Time will tell of course. If we work together as pilots, stick to the facts, quit the story telling, and stop playing amateur lawyer, we can actually move forward on this issue. However, you should expect some resistance from those who know better if you continue to state your opinions as facts and make up stories with respect to Sunwing or anybody else for that matter.

How strange that those who always post about the so called French discrimination at Transat are the same who always defend foreign pilot use at Sunwing. I just ignore them. Its the same people who also accuse me of being paid by Transat for fighting the Foreign pilot issue.
I'm surprised they have not yet mentioned my religious beliefs, my sexual orientation or any of my numerous vices. How relevant these would be in this thread.......

Gilles, you yourself admitted finally that you were in fact being compensated to fight the good fight. Although you have since removed that post, it is relevant to the matter.

[Strobes]

FWIW, SWG has Canjet pilots that were about to get furloughed on their August GSs.

Strobes.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

FWIW, SWG has Canjet pilots that were about to get furloughed on their August GSs.

Strobes.

If these experienced B73C type rated Canjet pilots were hired in lieu of type rated foreigners, this is great news, and I hope they can have a long and stable carreer at Sunwing.

If, however, these Canjets pilots were Canjet captains and have the requirements to be seasonal Sunwing captains, they better not be hired as First Officers if later this year Sunwing intends to hire foreign seasonal Captains. Canadians are to get first shot at Canadian jobs and there is no justification for refusing a seasonal Captain's job to a qualified Canadian Captain over a Foreign Captain. The Sunwing's pilots contract clauses which prohibit Canadian seasonal contract captains but allow foreign seasonal contract captains are in direct violation of the Human Rights Act of Canada which prohibit work discrimination based on country of Origin. Sunwing and Sunpac should find out what happened to CAE and Bell Helicopters for violating same laws when attempting to enforce US ITAR regulations in Canada a few years ago. Just Google ITAR, CAE or Bell and lawsuits. These two examples violated the Provincial Act while the Sunwing case will violate the Federal Act, which offers essentially the same rights.

If Canjet B73C type rated pilots were hired in lieu of the non rated pilots Sunwing intended to hire as contract seasonal pilots, but Sunwing still intends to hire 120 type rated foreigners, it will just serve to demonstrate how these ads and the whole TFW program is just a scam to deprive available and qualified Canadians of jobs in favor of TFW workers.

If Sunwing wants to claim that it is under contract to import into Canada as many foreign pilots as it sent to Europe this summer, including a 1:1 Captain swap, this is already fullfilled by the 4 wet leases that Sunwing has applied for with CTA, which is a 1:1 swap with the four Sunwing aircraft that were deployed on wet-lease to Europe this summer.

So no need for any additional TFW pilots to fullfill any reciprocal deals Sunwing may claim it has with Foreign Airlines.

[Big Pistons Forever]

But again, I don't think it's important to you to follow facts.

You guys are a riot, always accusing me of lying etc. What facts have you provided ?

Lets go over my statements, one by one. Please correct me where I am wrong.

1) I said Sunwing will hire 120 TFW pilots next winter. True or False ?
2) I said that half or more of those TFW pilots will be hired as Captains. True or False ?
3) I said that all Canadian seasonal contract pilots will be hired as First Officers, even if they were previously Captains on the 737NG for another airline. True or False ?
4) I said that the Sunwing Collective agreement with its pilots prohibits Canadian seasonal contract pilots to be Captains. True or False ?
5) I said that the Sunwing Collective Agreement with its pilots allows Foreign seasonal contract pilots to be Captains. True or False ?
6) I said that even if Sunwing finds a certain number of Canadian B737NG type rated pilots to hire, these will be hired as non rated first officers and will not reduce the number of type rated foreign pilots (120) Sunwing intends to hire. True or False ?
7) I said that Sunwing advertised for 120 type rated pilots, captains and first officers, and that this is a fake ad meant only to satisfy ESDC advertising requirements, and that the ad mean to hire Canadians is the other one, for non rated First Officers, even if the Canadians are Boeing 737NG captains. True or False ?

Which one of my statememts is false CMD-A and please explain in detail ?

Aerosexual and CMD-A how about offering any facts that are contrary to the points Gilles makes before you impugn his motives ? Oh right you can't

[aerosexual]

Aerosexual and CMD-A how about offering any facts that are contrary to the points Gilles makes before you impugn his motives ? Oh right you can't

Hey BPF, why can't I? I think I have provided thoughtful responses to Gilles in the last little while. We are running around in circles, and frankly not accomplishing much by doing so. And by stating "Oh right you can't" like a little school girl isn't helpful either.

All of Gilles' points in the post above have been debated ad nauseam. Sunwing hired Canjet pilots facing furlough and Gilles has turned it into a negative. More hiring is around the corner too. If you have anything to add BPF, then please so, but keep the cheerleading to the schoolyard.

[mantogasrsrwy]

I would like Gilles to explain why Sunwing can't bring over foreign captains while they continue to send Canadian captains over to Europe. It seems like he needs something else to hitch his cart to as Sunwing continues to hire more Canadians. Lets hear some more speculation portrayed as fact Gilles.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Aerosexual and CMD-A how about offering any facts that are contrary to the points Gilles makes before you impugn his motives ? Oh right you can't

Hey BPF, why can't I? I think I have provided thoughtful responses to Gilles in the last little while. We are running around in circles, and frankly not accomplishing much by doing so. And by stating "Oh right you can't" like a little school girl isn't helpful either.

.

Sorry but I have yet to see you provide facts that are contrary the points that Gilles made in the post I quoted. However I have an open mind so if you care to you could quote some of your posts that provide information that shows that Gilles had in fact made inaccurate statements. It should not be hard as his question are simple yes/no questions. Which ones are in fact false ?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I would like Gilles to explain why Sunwing can't bring over foreign captains while they continue to send Canadian captains over to Europe. It seems like he needs something else to hitch his cart to as Sunwing continues to hire more Canadians. Lets hear some more speculation portrayed as fact Gilles.

I just love those people who attempt to argue with me without even reading what I wrote. I already covered that in my last post above. I will cut and paste for your benefit. Let me know if I was not clear enough. I will gladly explain it to you in a different manner.

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If Sunwing wants to claim that it is under contract to import into Canada as many foreign pilots as it sent to Europe this summer, including a 1:1 Captain swap, this is already fullfilled by the 4 wet leases that Sunwing has applied for with CTA, which is a 1:1 swap with the four Sunwing aircraft that were deployed on wet-lease to Europe this summer 

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Sunwing hired Canjet pilots facing furlough and Gilles has turned it into a negative. More hiring is around the corner too.

What negative ? My post was positive!

If these experienced B73C type rated Canjet pilots were hired in lieu of type rated foreigners, this is great news, and I hope they can have a long and stable carreer at Sunwing.

But if Sunwing posted an ad for experienced B737NG type rated pilots, and several such pilots apply and are told they will fly as first officers because the seasonal captain jobs can only be filled by TFW pilots, who will earn twice as much as they do, how is that supposed to be positive ?

Anyone who defends this discrimination against Canadian captains is arguing in bad faith. There is no way one can explain this and present it as something positive.

Its like telling a black person he can get on the bus but must sit in the back, and when he protests, telling him that being allowed on the bus was positive, why does he have to emphasize the fact that he must sit in the back with his kind?