RCAF TFW Pilots

[Ironman2909]

Again, tell us WHO should the RCAF hire to fill those Operational Training Instructor positions??

This is the exact same question every aircraft Operator asks me when I contest their "special and unique" needs for TFW pilots.

Gilles, please answer the question. What is the made in Canada solution when you require an aircraft commander who has years of expience flying heavies, (C17- CC130J), into places where people are trying to shoot them down?

Also, WRT your reference to pilots flying desks in the RCAF. I don't think you quite understand the way the Air Force works. Pilots run the Air Force. It is not like any airline you have ever worked at. Most key management positions in the organization are occupied by pilots. Planning a humanitarian airlift into Haiti can not be left to some guy off the street. Planning the enforcement of a no fly zone can't be delegated to an accountant. Writing the requirements for a new SAR aircraft can't be delegated to an office manager. In a nut shell; Airline pilots are minions. They are not expected to deliver anything more that a safe flight from point A to point B. RCAF pilots are leaders; getting an aircraft safely from point A to point B is the least of the demands placed on them. The flying an RCAF pilot does in his early career gives him part of the foundation knowledge that he will need to go on and lead the organization. To put it in simple terms, those experienced guys are at desks because we need experienced guys at those desks.

Gilles, I appreciate what you are trying to do here. I spent some time on the civi side of aviation and I know how oleaginous some operators are. I applaude you and I thank you for your efforts to put Sunwing's feet to the fire. However, I can tell you that the RCAF is not Sunwing. The guys we recruited, (and are by no means temporary), fill a gap that can't be filled with Canadians, (unless we decide to conscript every retired RCAF pilot under the age of 60 back into the RCAF). You are speaking on matters about which you are not an expert. You are making yourself look bad in the eyes of people who are experts. I realize that last statement may seem confrontational; it is not meant to be. It is just a simple statement of fact. There is a reason I don't comment on the interal workings of Ornge or Air Canada; I've never been in those companies and I am ignorant of their needs and circumstances.

B208 I agree to everything you say but I think Gilles argument is also valid to a point.

...and folks I know this is not a military forum.

Here, we're presented with a case of a supposedly gap in experience inside the RCAF, either at an operational level or basic training. I think Gilles argument is pointing to the fact that if you need experience at any level, you need to try to solve it internally before jumping to some awkward solution (i.e. bring Foreign Military Pilots into your rank to fly your military airplanes).

A bunch of guys seems to know some stuff about the military. So you definitely know about the exchange program that has always existed between the different NATO nations. Example of this is every year, you see a few RCAF pilots going down to the US as you see a few of their pilots coming up into our Air Force to exchange, learn and teach their experiences. This as been a great system in which I witnessed it's exceptionally great impact on our RCAF pilots.

What Gilles identify as a problem is there is no ''exchange'' in any way in what he identified in the previous posts. We are filling ''potential gaps'' with foreign pilots into the RCAF ranks with a possibility of stealing a flying position to RCAF pilots.

So the question is, where are those experienced RCAF pilots? Like B208 mentioned, a lot them are ''running'' the Airforce behind a desk. Do we need to send pilots behind desks. That is a hard and constantly debated question among the ranks of any Airforce folks I know from around the world. For my part, I think you need guys who know ''the game'' in the bureaucracy. But I'm sure that you don't need as much as there is right now. I truly believe that the posting system in place is archaic and in a bad need of improvement.

I've witnessed the military spending millions training pilots on the aircraft type I was on. Most of the guys were getting posted out only 3-4 years after having flown a mere 400-500 hours a year. That makes for a really....really expansive hourly rate if you think about it. On top of that, those guys had probably just upgraded to Aircraft Commander. So the system has worked so hard to train and upgrade a pilot to AC and then as he become barely comfortable ''gaining experience'' on his aircraft, you are sending him to some other place.

What must be done is simple, keep guys much longer on the airframe they've trained on. If you keep guys for 6-8 years at a time on one type of aircraft, the experience gap will be much less than what the RCAF is facing now. Thus not needing Foreign Pilots to fill a supposedly gap of experience.

There's been multiple ways presented to the RCAF to change it's ways of doing things recently. You just need to read on the Canadian Defence Senate sub-committee. I know what I'm talking about is a huge change in the military culture, which is not easy to be done. But it would definitely give a better chance to ''our'' young military pilots to fly ''our'' military aircraft. After all, they deserve it after making much sacrifices to get their military wings.

My two cents.

[snoopy]

Great interview Gilles!

Good on you for persisting this thread, despite all the negatives. The same old thing applies - as long as the bandaid solution remains, the real problem will never be fixed. Nobody would argue the point that several years of serious budget cuts have decimated the RCAF. However, as many of you have pointed out, the organization is run by pilots, who will always find a solution in the face of adversity, or die trying. In this case, they are hiring TFW, and the real problem of the budget cuts crippling RCAF resources is not being addressed.

This is a completely different discussion than the use of the foreign exchange program to exchange culture, information, expertise and ideas from other countries - that program is mutually beneficial and is a good thing. We're talking about a one-way check valve, where the application of the TFW bandaid prevents the real problems from being properly resolved.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[Posthumane]

Ironman - while the posting system may in fact be a big issue within the forces (I know this has been brought up at several levels within the military, not just RCAF problem), at the end of the day you do need somebody to run the RCAF from behind a desk, and that somebody has to come from one of the airforce trades. While on the surface it may not make sense to have trained pilots flying a desk, it makes the same amount of sense as having trained air combat systems officers doing it, or trained aeronautical engineers, or any other RCAF officer occupation. But nobody starts off their career as upper management, they all come through one job or another.

Snoopy, the foreign workers are indeed a bandaid solution to an experience gap, but I don't know if it necessarily hinders the fixing of the real problem. Funding is always an issue, but it is one that is handled on a different level. I think this bandaid is one that actually helps alleviate the longer term gap by allowing a larger pool of candidates to be mentored by experienced officers.

[AirMail]

I find it hard to believe there is no one within the ranks of the RCAF to promote/upgrade from within and that there is a lack of qualified and experienced pilots/instructors. Also, lets use our imagination for a minute for a hypothetical question. What if a war broke out between Canada and Britain, who does the British foreign pilot fly for? I would guess the RCAF would boot the TFW, and now what? A position needs to be filled, likely from within. There's a reason many countries like the USAF does not employ foreigners to fly their aircraft.
I do not see the RCAF actively recruiting Canadians to fill their ranks, funny though I do see commercials time to time for the USAF and other US forces. So in 20 yrs from now, there'll be even a "more need" for TFWs as the RCAF isn't activity pursuing training up their own citizens. So at what point do we call the RCAF Canadian as the ratio of TFW increases? And it will increase!

[Moose47]

G'day

You can freeze all postings for the foreseeable future.

Short Service Commission of eight years. All you do is fly with no admin or command duties. When your time is up, you have the option of staying in or leaving.

N.C.O. Pilots. (I hate the term N.C.M.) Totally dedicated to flying tac hel. You go from ab initio to wings standard on helos, Rank upon graduation would be Flight Sergeant. Maximum rank would be Chief Warrant Officer.

Re-instate all the R.C.A.F. Auxiliary Squadrons that were disbanded in 1964. Make them all helo units with a dual role - search and rescue as well as tac air

Or, you could try and persuade the U.S.A.F. and U.S. Navy to move back into Newfoundland and Labarador. They were Canada's first line of defence on east coast from the late 1940's until 1967.

Cheers...Chris

[Posthumane]

Moose, I think going back to having both commissioned and non-commissioned pilots for different roles is a good way to go. The US army air corps and Royal Army air corps do this. Many people would argue that it is not necessary to have an officer flying tac-hel.

[Old Dog Flying]

I listened to Gilles this morning on CKNW Vancouver and quite frankly he could not answer Bill Good's questions about the RCAF because he is out of his league when it comes to military aviation...and so is Kirsten. Gilles sounded like he was reading from a well rehearsed script.

Our air force has been totally decimated by bean counters and politicians. Our training system is in the hands of "for profit" civilian companies. And we want to train pilots! Not enough aircraft; not enough military instructors and not enough support from anyone when we need it.

As a retired RCAF officer, I think that the nay-sayers should stick to things that they know something about

[DonutHole]

Great interview Gilles!

Good on you for persisting this thread, despite all the negatives. The same old thing applies - as long as the bandaid solution remains, the real problem will never be fixed. Nobody would argue the point that several years of serious budget cuts have decimated the RCAF. However, as many of you have pointed out, the organization is run by pilots, who will always find a solution in the face of adversity, or die trying. In this case, they are hiring TFW, and the real problem of the budget cuts crippling RCAF resources is not being addressed.

This is a completely different discussion than the use of the foreign exchange program to exchange culture, information, expertise and ideas from other countries - that program is mutually beneficial and is a good thing. We're talking about a one-way check valve, where the application of the TFW bandaid prevents the real problems from being properly resolved.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

The problem I see with this is they are bringing them in permanently. So why do the TFW route? We're not talking about easing a hardship temporarily, we are talking about making these guys mandatory citizens and giving them permanent positions. I suspect the motivation to find a way to staff these positions in the future will be undermined by the new route being brought forward... Why do we need to train officers for these positions when we can just bring in expats when we need a roll filled?

I get the budget crisis for sure, but it's sad that we have a need we can't fill with our own, and what is even more sad is that there are people here who don't see it that way at all.

[Ironman2909]

Ironman - while the posting system may in fact be a big issue within the forces (I know this has been brought up at several levels within the military, not just RCAF problem), at the end of the day you do need somebody to run the RCAF from behind a desk, and that somebody has to come from one of the airforce trades. While on the surface it may not make sense to have trained pilots flying a desk, it makes the same amount of sense as having trained air combat systems officers doing it, or trained aeronautical engineers, or any other RCAF officer occupation. But nobody starts off their career as upper management, they all come through one job or another.

Snoopy, the foreign workers are indeed a bandaid solution to an experience gap, but I don't know if it necessarily hinders the fixing of the real problem. Funding is always an issue, but it is one that is handled on a different level. I think this bandaid is one that actually helps alleviate the longer term gap by allowing a larger pool of candidates to be mentored by experienced officers.

Totally agree with your comment. I'm just saying they should try to improve the current system. There is a way, I'm sure, that you can do exactly the same quality of work that you have right now with a bit less people. You just need to improve the lines of communication and mostly the trust of the people who works at every level.

[Nark]

I just want to clarify for my Canadian friends up there. The US Army's(Marines and Navy) Warrant Officers are very much officers. Fail to render proper honors will result in standing uncomfortably at the position of attention.


The warrant officer corps is a good solution to the staffing issue, for the structure of the Army. Warrants are: instructors, standards, safety, maintenance test pilots, etc... We track one (generally) and stay in that position(ie Instructor pilot; train new guys and administer check rides), whereas my commissioned Bubba's may swap between platoon/company/staff positions and not dedicated entirely to flight.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

For the love of god, stop arguing about something you have no clue about.

When I was put in charge of the foreign pilot file by my Union, I knew nothing about it. Now I know about Immigration Canada Regulation, ESDC Regulations, Canadian Transportation Agency Regulations, Transport Canada licencing Regulations, Revenue Canada regulations as they pertain to TFWs and all sorts of other things related to the Foreign Pilot file, things I had no clue about two years ago. I am still learning and every month I am getting better at what I do.
Certain people have been telling me to shut up for two years now. You are just another one.

[Liquid Charlie]

The RCAF and likely most air forces do not want experienced pilots - they feel that de-training is more difficult that taking someone who can't even spell aeroplane -- see the spell checker doesn't even recognize it -- lmfaoooooo -- and convert them into military pilots --

[watermeth]

When I was put in charge of the foreign pilot file by my Union, I knew nothing about it. Now I know about Immi [etc....]

For those wondering if Gilles was being paid for doing all this, now we have an answer.
Mandated should be the proper word.
Which union, and why, why "my union" and not just ALPA canada ?

[Gannet167]

The RCAF and likely most air forces do not want experienced pilots - they feel that de-training is more difficult that taking someone who can't even spell aeroplane -- see the spell checker doesn't even recognize it -- lmfaoooooo -- and convert them into military pilots --

The military is looking for experienced military pilots. It's hired several of them now and is employing them in pretty high level positions as they skills they have are so elite, hard to find and very necessary. That is the experience that is needed.

The new guys being recruited into RCAF pilot training typically have university degrees, are bilingual, have jumped through dozens of hoops and are some of the finest young men and women Canada has. They come out of a world renowned and difficult training system as pretty talented and capable pilots with minimal hours.

To suggest that they can't even spell is a bit of an insult.

[Gannet167]

Gilles,

Lets say we need some FWIC qualified guys in the RCAF, you know to defend the country and all that. These are but a few of the elite qualifications that are not taught at the Ottawa Flying Club and very, very few military pilots ever achieve. It's a little like being the Bobby Orr of aviation. Few and far between, take a decade or more to achieve and probably less than 1 in 1,000 people in the general population have the ability.

So, which Canadian's job is being stolen if we hire such a guy from another Air Force? Qualified guys like this don't exist in Canada outside of the CF, and the ones left in the CF are retiring fast. The new Canadian members are still being recruited in a big way, but for 10 to 15 years wont even have a chance of trying out for this qualification, assuming they are even capable. And to train them the CF needs millions of dollars worth of training hours and serviceable aircraft, both of which are not easily found.

It's a little like hiring a top level brain surgeon who is very, very good - due to 15 years of experience and a top level education. Does that brain surgeon "steal" the job of a guy who is only just applying to enter medical school?

[Liquid Charlie]

To suggest that they can't even spell is a bit of an insult.

lmfaooooo -- now that is funny -- I sense you are military -- I will translate my thoughts -- I was just suggesting that for primary candidates civilian flying experience is of no value in military eyes and that they preferred people with no civilian aviation background -- BTW it comes from an old "aviation joke" -- "yesterday I couldn't even spell pilot -- now I are one" -- humour from days gone by ----- but the military and it's placement of pilots there within has not changed -- then again we will be replaced by drones -- I can see it now world powers and airlines frequenting computer gaming communities looking for the best of the best -- seems there was a scifi movie based on that --

[Colonel Sanders]

"Flying Captains" don't get promoted, and
that's who the TFW's are brought in as.

The RCAF trains Canadian pilots, who if they
want to be promoted, quit flying as fast as
they can and drive a desk for the rest of their
careers.

Then, they need pilots - much like migrant
workers are needed in California to pick fruit,
work that the citizens won't do - so they bring
in the foreigners to do the "dirty work".

Rather a self-inflicted wound from my perspective.

There are two kinds of people in the world. Those
that mow their own lawn, and those that bring
illegal aliens in to do it.

One other thought: I remember seeing a sign in
a bar in Key West, which said:

"A lack of planning on your part, does not constitute
an emergency upon mine"

[CFMartin]

Gilles, I will take my case of beer.

Here is an article about one of our fellow Canadians who did pretty well for himself in the Royal Air Force, earning the highest distinction for airmen:

http://www.canada.com/story.html?id=17f ... 4ce9741000

[Gilles Hudicourt]

It's B52 I offered a case if beer to, not AvCanada at large. And I'm a man of my word. The moment he/she claims it, I will send it.  

[B208]

It's B52 I offered a case if beer to, not AvCanada at large. And I'm a man of my word. The moment he/she claims it, I will send it.

You may work in an airplane on occassion, but you are more of a politician than a pilot.

[CFMartin]

Thanks, Gilles.

Let's share a beer when we meet, then.

[ragbagflyer]

"Flying Captains" don't get promoted, and
that's who the TFW's are brought in as.

The RCAF trains Canadian pilots, who if they
want to be promoted, quit flying as fast as
they can and drive a desk for the rest of their
careers.
....
Rather a self-inflicted wound from my perspective.

Bingo! Ironman nailed it too in my opinion. I don't claim to be a military expert but I've been close to those that are and if there's one thing they've communicated to me and I've observed, it's that the military is a massive and sluggish bureaucracy first and a fighting force second. Ya we know, "military pilots are trained to be leaders" yada yada yada, and I'm not going to disagree with that but it comes off sounding like you guys defending the system have more than a touch of Stockholm syndrome. It takes ten years to train a pilot? You're right, and that's the friggin problem. The amount of waiting around between applying, getting accepted, and doing all the different courses needed to be qualified on an aircraft is insane. It should not take seven years to take somebody who already has a commercial license and qualify them on an FO (or whatever the Airforce term is) on a Cormorant. That's just bullshit. The military is missing out on a tonne of Canadian talent because they insist on doing things the military way.

[B208]

It takes ten years to train a pilot?

No, it takes about three years to get someone to wings from off the street. That qualifies them as FO, (or wingman for fighters). It takes another three years or so to upgrade to aircraft commander, (which is the equivalent of a line captain in civil aviation). Everything after that is seasoning. The seasoning is where we are having some trouble. Most of our seasoned pilots are hitting retirement age. During the decade of darkness nobody was recruited, thus the RCAF is left with a dwindling pool of "old timers" and a large pool of newly minted aircraft commanders.
I know it has been suggested that the RCAF simply hire high time airline guys to fill this gap. This will not work because the type of flying the RCAF does is different from what the airlines do. To use an example some on the board here might relate to; Consider a situation where the majority of a companies water bomber captains have retired. Would anyone here advocate directly replacing them with airline captains? Would anyone here advocate replacing them with fresh Seneca Grads?

[B208]

DP

[ragbagflyer]

It takes ten years to train a pilot?

No, it takes about three years to get someone to wings from off the street. That qualifies them as FO, (or wingman for fighters). It takes another three years or so to upgrade to aircraft commander, (which is the equivalent of a line captain in civil aviation). Everything after that is seasoning. The seasoning is where we are having some trouble. Most of our seasoned pilots are hitting retirement age. During the decade of darkness nobody was recruited, thus the RCAF is left with a dwindling pool of "old timers" and a large pool of newly minted aircraft commanders.
I know it has been suggested that the RCAF simply hire high time airline guys to fill this gap. This will not work because the type of flying the RCAF does is different from what the airlines do. To use an example some on the board here might relate to; Consider a situation where the majority of a companies water bomber captains have retired. Would anyone here advocate directly replacing them with airline captains? Would anyone here advocate replacing them with fresh Seneca Grads?

Three years at best but when the course dates don't all line up it can take a lot longer than that. The Forces could find higher time experienced Canadian pilots if they chose to create less rigid recruitment streams. Culturally they aren't interested. I believe you could put an experienced bomber pilot into a heavy Air force twin and have them up to speed within a year or two, IF you made it a priority. Same goes for putting a high time heli guy with thousands of hours in the bush and a solid offshore/IFR background into a SAR machine. Maybe it isn't practical to completely readjust the intake process and the training methods, and it could cause a clash of culture within the ranks, but it's far from impossible. I've observed that those who have only worked at one organization are the worst Ops managers, CP's and administrators because they are so indoctrinated in a single way of doing things. As example of a ass backwards method of doing things, remember how the SAR twin otter pilots were supposed to dock the twin otter? With a guy out on the float giving directions to the captain over the intercom while the captain sat there looking forward and not back at the dock with his head out the door. Come on now.

There's a lot of talent and depth in Canadian aviation; it's not just Seneca grads that go straight to the right (edited) seat at Jazz.