College of Pilots?

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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Ogee »

GTFA wrote:
At its core, this is a proposal which is counter to free enterprise and individualism. Its transparent agenda is to restrict entry to the flying profession, create an artificial shortage of pilots, and thus increase the wage levels of pilots. That has a knock on effect in terms of operating costs to carriers, both good and bad, and in a real market will result in less flying to be done as customers on the margin of choice between air and ground will swing to ground. So you have two forces working against our profession...an artificial barrier to entry affecting supply, and a market driven reduction in demand because of higher costs that will result.
Oh Ogee!

Sounds like you are already scripting the 5th Estate episode! It might be a little early to make this kind of accusation. Why is it a bad idea for a professional group of practitioners to regulate their own standards of training and performance?
If it was a good idea, everybody would be doing it.

Regulation by government authority carries with it the authority of the state, which, at the end of the day is us. Not just us pilots, but the totality of society which periodically votes on the performance of government. It also is subject to review for fairness and other values which underpin society. There is media oversight, particularly when public safety is involved. And a whole lot of other things.

This proposal seeks to have aviation licensing, and God knows what other aspects of aviation, placed in the hands of people whose only link to society is through a "partnership" with the government authority which is supposed to be overseeing aviation. It places Transport Canada at a further remove from accountability to citizens and pilot/citizens and the "democracy" it leaves them with is that of an organization which proposes to be granted authority over all of us when it has authority from only a tiny fraction of us. And actively avoids seeking a mandate to do what it proposes to do from the profession it seeks control over.

There is a divergence of interest between TC and this group. TC has a statutory mandate to ensure safety within an effective and efficient aviation system in Canada and those parts of that system which operate internationally. It answers to Parliament and society. The College does not answer to either Parliament or society. Right now, it refuses to answer to us while it proposes to move forward in our names but without consent to make decisions about our careers. It does not have society's interest at heart, it seeks to gain control over the practice of piloting for both good and bad reasons. Its the bad reasons I am concerned about.

I don't really have any objection to a College as a way of differentiating pilots on a real basis, or even an imaginary basis. What I object to is its compulsory nature. And the fact that there isn't really a bit of concern amongst the public or the piloting profession as to how Transport Canada sets training and standards to obtain licenses. The concern is with how some commercial operators treat pilots and how they run unsafe operations and get away with it.. But I don't see that there is a great concern that my licence now isn't good as a certification of my ability to fly an airplane, or that the interim licences I held in my career were no good. We all know that a new standard, above the core license, is set by operators and insurance companies and becomes more machine specific, etc.

Ya, I can see the College playing a part in that. But a perhaps imperfect comparision is with the legal profession. You get a law degree. A university gives you that, not the Law Society. But to practice, you need to meet further qualifications imposed by the law society. But this College wants to control your career right back to your PPL medical. For no good reason which comes to mind. But with one obviously bad motivation, to be able to control the supply of pilots, which is another way of saying to limit those who can dream about obtaining the rights we are now able to freely exercise upon what seem to me to be demonstrating competence at appropriate levels in our careers.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Cat Driver »

Further to Ogee's concerns there is their intent to set a minimum education requirement on people wishing to get a pilots license.

They do not say what the minimum will be, there is no problem and there has never been any problem concerning what level of education a person has with regard to their ability to be pilots.

I would really like to know what their reason was for deciding to make such a change.

Would I have been a better, safer pilot had I had more education?

As a pilot it was my duty to fly aircraft not design them.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Ogee »

Cat Driver wrote:Further to Ogee's concerns there is their intent to set a minimum education requirement on people wishing to get a pilots license.

They do not say what the minimum will be, there is no problem and there has never been any problem concerning what level of education a person has with regard to their ability to be pilots.

I would really like to know what their reason was for deciding to make such a change.

Would I have been a better, safer pilot had I had more education?

As a pilot it was my duty to fly aircraft not design them.
There is also an idea to act in judgment on a pilot's conduct. Something about being "...of good conduct". WTF does that mean? We now have to meet Stockwell Day's view of what a good citizen is? Can't admit to smoking pot, having a criminal record, missing Mass on Sundays, eating meat on Fridays, sex before marriage? When the hell did good conduct have anything to do with being a capable and safe pilot?

Something is very weird here...
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Cat Driver »

Something about being "...of good conduct". WTF does that mean?
If they are using some of their top people in Transport Canada Civil Aviation as the benchmark for good conduct I will have to completely re learn right from wrong.

Because if I am to lower my morals to their level it will not only be very difficult I will also be putting myself in a category where the Mafia or the Hells Angles would refuse to accept me because I would be to untrustworthy to take a chance on.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Localizer »

Would I have been a better, safer pilot had I had more education?
There never was any hope for you .... :mrgreen:
I think that this is a done deal between Transport and the "College" and that right now the parties are making a show of procedure but with the outcome certain.

It may even be that the genesis of this originates with TC or with a clique within it.

Those who oppose this, and I admit until I put this last 2+2 together I was ambivalent, have to organize a counter effort. And I think its time to bring this to the attention of the media. It is certainly a newsworthy story and I'll have a talk with my CBC connections to see if the Fifth Estate might be interested. It is that kind of story.

You'll note that it seems to be that the College seeks authority to issue operating certificates as well. Or at least that TC will entertain that idea in the context of the Safety Partnership framework.

At its core, this is a proposal which is counter to free enterprise and individualism. Its transparent agenda is to restrict entry to the flying profession, create an artificial shortage of pilots, and thus increase the wage levels of pilots. That has a knock on effect in terms of operating costs to carriers, both good and bad, and in a real market will result in less flying to be done as customers on the margin of choice between air and ground will swing to ground. So you have two forces working against our profession...an artificial barrier to entry affecting supply, and a market driven reduction in demand because of higher costs that will result.
Here comes Ogee with the classic "cloak and dagger" scenario ...
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Hedley »

I am sure this pompous "college" will get just as much authority as the CBAA :wink:
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Dust Devil »

Localizer wrote:
Would I have been a better, safer pilot had I had more education?
There never was any hope for you .... :mrgreen:
I think that this is a done deal between Transport and the "College" and that right now the parties are making a show of procedure but with the outcome certain.

It may even be that the genesis of this originates with TC or with a clique within it.

Those who oppose this, and I admit until I put this last 2+2 together I was ambivalent, have to organize a counter effort. And I think its time to bring this to the attention of the media. It is certainly a newsworthy story and I'll have a talk with my CBC connections to see if the Fifth Estate might be interested. It is that kind of story.

You'll note that it seems to be that the College seeks authority to issue operating certificates as well. Or at least that TC will entertain that idea in the context of the Safety Partnership framework.

At its core, this is a proposal which is counter to free enterprise and individualism. Its transparent agenda is to restrict entry to the flying profession, create an artificial shortage of pilots, and thus increase the wage levels of pilots. That has a knock on effect in terms of operating costs to carriers, both good and bad, and in a real market will result in less flying to be done as customers on the margin of choice between air and ground will swing to ground. So you have two forces working against our profession...an artificial barrier to entry affecting supply, and a market driven reduction in demand because of higher costs that will result.
Here comes Ogee with the classic "cloak and dagger" scenario ...
Is blind faith better?
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

With the recent announcement that TC is taking back the regulatory authority that it gave the CBAA, it would seem to me the Ottawa political winds are starting to shift away from outsourcing regulatory responsibilities. I think the college may end up being DOA.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Cat Driver »


There never was any hope for you .... :mrgreen:
Yeh for sure the college should use me as an example of what they do not want to see the pilots in Canada emulating. :mrgreen:

Had I had more education it is likely I would have been smart enough to choose a field that requires one to need an education and thus may have retired a lot richer than I am. :mrgreen:
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by xsbank »

Without seeming to be an apologist for this college, they 'never' said there was to be an educational component of their org, except perhaps as a component of aviation, i.e. CRM or How to Start a Turbine Engine, that sort of stuff. For those of you who are fussed about finishing grade 12 or getting a degree, I could see no evidence that they GARA about that.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Dust Devil »

xsbank wrote:Without seeming to be an apologist for this college, they 'never' said there was to be an educational component of their org, except perhaps as a component of aviation, i.e. CRM or How to Start a Turbine Engine, that sort of stuff. For those of you who are fussed about finishing grade 12 or getting a degree, I could see no evidence that they GARA about that.
It was mentioned that education talks have taken place. When I inquired what ideas we're tossed around the question was ignored.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Localizer »

Is blind faith better?
I prefer an informed decision, based on real information ... not the "what if" scenerio.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Dust Devil »

Localizer wrote:
Is blind faith better?
I prefer an informed decision, based on real information ... not the "what if" scenerio.
In the absence of real information all that is left is "what if's" for those who are concerned. Otherwise it is blind faith.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Ogee »

Localizer wrote:
Is blind faith better?
I prefer an informed decision, based on real information ... not the "what if" scenerio.
Sure you do, son, sure you do. You want to be part of this, fill your boots, but as I said before and you started running your gob about, this discussion is several levels above your pay grade.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Localizer »

Sure you do, son, sure you do. You want to be part of this, fill your boots, but as I said before and you started running your gob about, this discussion is several levels above your pay grade.
How is anyone suppose to take you seriously when you make stupid comments such as this. But thanks for making my point exactly .. you act like you "know" something about me, but really you know nothing. So in turn you act like you "know" something about this College and the future of it .. but once again .. you really know nothing.
In the absence of real information all that is left is "what if's" for those who are concerned. Otherwise it is blind faith.
Its not blind faith when you've been told by 2 board members that the entire framework will be laid out for everyone to know .. in due time. I suspect it doesn't matter much anyway DD, I think I could tell you a John Deere tractor is green, and you'll argue its yellow.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by flightlead »

What size skirt do all you queens - sorry, "pilots" , wear?

Lecturing in a public forum against the "know it all" attitude does not actually make someone start believing ones, (your) self motivated "know it all" attitude.

Good luck !
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by College West »

Hello All,

Back home for a few days so I will try and answer few more questions and concerns.

1) Control of the pilot supply - there is no intent within the College to limit or control the supply of qualified pilots in this country. This was tried by certain medical associations over the past couple of decades with very poor results both for the country and the medical profession. Our main concern is that we are in fact declining in numbers every year (I believe a net decline of 200-300 pilots per year due to retirements and pilots leaving the business). The choice of a career in aviation is not as popular as it once was with young people – why would you spend upwards of 100k in training to spend the next 10 years moving from job to job making a subsistence living? Our aim is to promote the profession through raising the profile of pilots with the public, making the career more accessible, and trying to improve the life of pilots in general, particularly those in the early stages of their career..


2) The hidden agenda – There is no hidden agenda, this is far, far, from being a “done deal”, and the concept of the college did not originate within TC. The process toward gaining legislated authority over pilot licensing and standards is long, involved, and will take an immense amount of work – the general consensus among board members is 2-3 years before we are ready to approach the regulator to begin the formal application to enter in the partnership. We must prove that there will be a benefit to the public, that we have the structure and methods required to handle the job, and that we have a mandate from a large majority of Canadian pilots. Its not clear yet what a large majority means – I 'm guessing somewhere in the range of 75%. Our main advantage overall is that we are perceived to have no vested interest or agenda other than safety and the improvement of the profession as a whole . Simply put, if the the majority of Canadian pilots buy into the vision of a he College of Pilots being a unified voice for the profession, and decide to become members, then I believe we stand a good chance of success. We are also very conscious of the difficulties encountered by the CBAA and must prove to the regulator that we will not let the same thing happen to us.

3) Educational standards – there is no intent to establish a minimum standard beyond the ability to speak and write in one of the official languages and to pass the required training. Our aim is to improve the level and content of training available. We will be working with pilots, industry, and training organizations across the country to identify areas where we need to improve, and establishing a training and standards committee to that end. A few examples of concern: is there good specialized training available for those intending a career in the bush/float world, how do we address the effect of automation on fundamental piloting skills, should all commercial pilots receive aerobatic and upset training prior to licensing, how can we improve the standard of training during that crucial first 50-100 hours of flying, how can we make the job of career instructor more attractive etc etc.

4) TC inspectors on the board – as with all board members, Mr. Holbrook and Mr. Slunder joined in the formal commitment to leave all outside agendas at the door. Both gentlemen are held in very high regard by the other members of the board and have demonstrated a passionate commitment to improving the profession and overall flight safety, and a clear understanding of the challenges faced by pilots today, both in their day to day work and by the regulatory environment. They have given the College much insight into the workings of the government,TC, and our whole regulatory structure.. There may be a time as we get closer to gaining legislated authority, that their affiliation with the College becomes inappropriate – if so the College board at the time will deal with it.

5) Overall support – Over the next year the College will need help in the areas of training and standards, technical and safety, pilot assistance, public awareness and education, membership, and others. There is a lot of legwork to be done. We are admittedly over-represented by airline types and need volunteers from other facets of aviation. If you feel you would like to help in any of these fields or would just like more information please call me at 780-983-0888 or email.


Thanks for your time,

Clive Scott
Western Regional Director
College of Professional Pilots of Canada
clive@emmascottdesign.com
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Last edited by College West on Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by AEROBAT »

College West wrote:Hello All,





3) Educational standards – how do we address the effect of automation on fundamental piloting skills, should all commercial pilots receive aerobatic and upset training prior to licensing, how can we improve the standard of training during that crucial first 50-100 hours of flying, how can we make the job of career instructor more attractive etc etc.


Thanks for you time,

Clive Scott
Western Regional Director
College of Professional Pilots of Canada
clive@emmascottdesign.com

I like these ideas at least, especialy the part about aerobatic training.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Dust Devil »

College West wrote:Hello All,

Back home for a few days so I will try and answer few more questions and concerns.

1) Control of the pilot supply - there is no intent within the College to limit or control the supply of qualified pilots in this country. This was tried by certain medical associations over the past couple of decades with very poor results both for the country and the medical profession. Our main concern is that we are in fact declining in numbers every year (I believe a net decline of 200-300 pilots per year due to retirements and pilots leaving the business). The choice of a career in aviation is not as popular as it once was with young people – why would you spend upwards of 100k in training to spend the next 10 years moving from job to job making a subsistence living? Our aim is to promote the profession through raising the profile of pilots with the public, making the career more accessible, and trying to improve the life of pilots in general, particularly those in the early stages of their career..


2) The hidden agenda – There is no hidden agenda, this is far, far, from being a “done deal”, and the concept of the college did not originate within TC. The process toward gaining legislated authority over pilot licensing and standards is long, involved, and will take an immense amount of work – the general consensus among board members is 2-3 years before we are ready to approach the regulator to begin the formal application to enter in the partnership. We must prove that there will be a benefit to the public, that we have the structure and methods required to handle the job, and that we have a mandate from a large majority of Canadian pilots. Its not clear yet what a large majority means – I 'm guessing somewhere in the range of 75%. Our main advantage overall is that we are perceived to have no vested interest or agenda other than safety and the improvement of the profession as a whole . Simply put, if the the majority of Canadian pilots buy into the vision of a he College of Pilots being a unified voice for the profession, and decide to become members, then I believe we stand a good chance of success. We are also very conscious of the difficulties encountered by the CBAA and must prove to the regulator that we will not let the same thing happen to us.

3) Educational standards – there is no intent to establish a minimum standard beyond the ability to speak and write in one of the official languages and to pass the required training. Our aim is to improve the level and content of training available. We will be working with pilots, industry, and training organizations across the country to identify areas where we need to improve, and establishing a training and standards committee to that end. A few examples of concern: is there good specialized training available for those intending a career in the bush/float world, how do we address the effect of automation on fundamental piloting skills, should all commercial pilots receive aerobatic and upset training prior to licensing, how can we improve the standard of training during that crucial first 50-100 hours of flying, how can we make the job of career instructor more attractive etc etc.

4) TC inspectors on the board – as with all board members, Mr. Holbrook and Mr. Slunder joined in the formal commitment to leave all outside agendas at the door. Both gentlemen are held in very high regard by the other members of the board and have demonstrated a passionate commitment to improving the profession and overall flight safety, and a clear understanding of the challenges faced by pilots today, both in their day to day work and by the regulatory environment. They have given the College much insight into the workings of the government,TC, and our whole regulatory structure.. There may be a time as we get closer to gaining legislated authority, that their affiliation with the College becomes inappropriate – if so the College board at the time will deal with it.

5) Overall support – Over the next year the College will need help in the areas of training and standards, technical and safety, pilot assistance, public awareness and education, membership, and others. There is a lot of legwork to be done. We are admittedly over-represented by airline types and need volunteers from other facets of aviation. If you feel you would like to help in any of these fields or would just like more information please call me at 780-983-0888 or email.


Thanks for your time,

Clive Scott
Western Regional Director
College of Professional Pilots of Canada
clive@emmascottdesign.com
Thanks Clive.

You are starting to clear the air on some things. I find it interesting that in your post you acknowledge that a mandate from a majority of pilots will be required even though this is counter to what Colin posted earlier when he claimed no mandate was required.

Do you have any estimations on the amount of time that would be needed for a director to devote to this organization? Do you currently meet monthly, quarterly? I understand it is early just looking for rough estimations.

I see an opportunity to use technology to allow the members of the college to vote on possible issues. By using a secure website you could tie each vote to a commercial pilots license number for example. This could go a long way to keeping the organization accountable to the members.

Keep us informed.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Cat Driver »

For what ever it is worth Clive I would like to thank you for your time and trying to answer some of the questions here.

And also comment on some of your post.
3) Educational standards – there is no intent to establish a minimum standard beyond the ability to speak and write in one of the official languages and to pass the required training.
That is quite a reasonable approach.
Our aim is to improve the level and content of training available. We will be working with pilots, industry, and training organizations across the country to identify areas where we need to improve, and establishing a training and standards committee to that end.
This is also a positive goal as the standards are badly in need of improvement to bring training into the twenty first century.
A few examples of concern: is there good specialized training available for those intending a career in the bush/float world,
That can be done when you change the standards as there are many pilots out there willing and qualified to teach these skills if the training industry makes the job attractive enough and the pay is acceptable.
how do we address the effect of automation on fundamental piloting skills, should all commercial pilots receive aerobatic and upset training prior to licensing,
Of the three issues above upset training is the most beneficial.
how can we improve the standard of training during that crucial first 50-100 hours of flying, how can we make the job of career instructor more attractive etc etc.
By changing the whole structure and bringing in new talent that has improving the training industry as their main objective instead of protecting their empire as it now works.

Once again thanks for your efforts Clive and I hope it all works out for your group and the industry in general.....

...you have a real mountain to climb. :smt040
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by College West »

So far we have been meeting on a quarterly basis, although our next full meeting will probably be in the late summer as we concentrate on getting the message out to pilots across the country. The meetings typically require two or three days. As far as time required by the board members, it varies depending on each board members role and circumstances - personally I have been spending about three to five days a month working on college stuff with some of the executive spending much more than that. We recognize that we all have home lives and jobs - if you are willing to help you give as much or as little time as you are able.


Colin's comment regarding a mandate from industry is correct - as authority is granted legislatively we do not require a mandate from industry - industry being the air operators and the alphabet organizations representing them. This does not mean it would not be prudent to enlist as much support industry wide as possible - and as Colin also indicated we have approached the management of several air carriers with a positive response.

Your suggestion for electronic voting on larger issues is very good - I will bring it up with the board.

Thanks,

Clive Scott
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Dust Devil »

College West wrote:
Colin's comment regarding a mandate from industry is correct - as authority is granted legislatively we do not require a mandate from industry - industry being the air operators and the alphabet organizations representing them. This does not mean it would not be prudent to enlist as much support industry wide as possible - and as Colin also indicated we have approached the management of several air carriers with a positive response.

Your suggestion for electronic voting on larger issues is very good - I will bring it up with the board.

Thanks,

Clive Scott
Fair enough. I actually made a mistake by using the term "industry" I can see how that would include a number of people who would not be involved in this. I am more concerned with the College receiving a mandate from commercial pilots. It does appear that you are acknowledging that a mandate from the pilots is in fact required. Is this correct?
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by College West »

Yes that is absolutely correct - TC documentation regarding safety partnerships specifies we must document that a majority of members and stakeholders are on board with the application - and while they define a majority as being "more than 50%", we believe more than that will be required - somewhere in the range of a 65-75%. Keep in mind that we are still in early stages with this - we have had a number of discussions with elected and appointed government peoplethat , including the new DG, and the response has been quite favorable. We have also been made aware however that ultimately it depends on the political climate at the time, and that our documentation and code of conduct need to be air-tight - lots of work yet to do.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Cat Driver »

I hope the new DGCA has a better understanding of what a code of conduct is than the previous one or you people are in for a world of hurt.
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So what is the latest, College of Pilots?

Post by WhatThe? »

What is the latest in regards to getting one established? How about shooting for a Federal Minimum wage? Pay for actual duty-time, what a thought!

THX
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