College of Pilots?

[Doc]

Here we go again.....

[Ogee]

Don't you think this is something we should all be keeping an eye on Doc?

[crankedup]

Don't you think this is something we should all be keeping an eye on Doc?

Right on Ogee!

[OceansEdge]

I almost hate to resurrect this post - the feelings and tempers about this subject running so high... but throwing a few pennies into the pot:

• I believe this sort of effort is desperately needed in the industry
  Time after time we see frustration, annoyance, bitching, whinging, and quitting by good people over just how screwed up this industry can be, sorting it out isn't going to be easy. I don't think the College of Pilots, or anyone else has all the answers, but at least someone is willing to try
  It's been suggested that this 'elitist old white boys club' needs to represent other interests in the industry - rampies and AMEs and FA and Dispatchers - I can't speak for AME's or FA's but I can tell you that the Canadian Dispatchers Organization (infantile though it is) would be opposed to such a thing (not that CPPC has suggested it)
  Canadian Dispatchers Organization highly supports and welcomes these efforts
  We are not at cross purposes - some of our aims are the same, but not all - still I think that welcoming each others efforts is a GOOD thing
  I understand the desire to not jump the gun in making half baked announcements but...
  That did kind of lend itself to too much unfounded speculation - and no one loves a good rumour more than a pilot
  Some of the comments in this thread have surprised me - though they shouldn't have - can't get two pilots to agree to anything
  Organizing pilots is like trying to herd cats.

I personally wish them all the success - they've got some hills to climb we don't - but then we've got some issues of our own.

[jeta1]

[Meatservo]

Making generalizations about a group of people- accurate or not- when you aren't a member of that group, is bound to attract criticism. Thanks for your comments however, outsiders are welcome to chip in as far as I'm concerned.

[OceansEdge]

you're right, all generalizations are inherently false, including this one.
*smiles* probably - but then I've never been particularly worried about criticism *grins*

it may be idealistic, it may be doomed to failure, but then they said that about so many things... like flying, or sending a man to the moon, or... yeah it's lofty, but damn it all someone has to try, and if they fail then someone else will pick up the ball, and someone else after them - it is not in mankind's nature to sit still - this is how we evolve - physically and socially. Sure there's always going to be naysayers, and disagreers and those who prefer the status quo - for everyone else who believes, who knows in their heart that SOMETHING has got to change - I urge you - beg you - get involved, let your voice be heard, if you don't think this group's voice speaks to the issues you think need hearing, don't think they're on the right track then DO something about it, get involved, get heard, give them perspective on a new direction.

Anyway - I'll get off my horse, you're right this isn't MY fight, I've got my own.

[Meatservo]

Well, you're right, this is in essence about being regarded as professionals, and I think the difficulty lies in whether or not we truly regard ourselves as professionals. A mass inferiority complex is what it looks like to me when I read the arguments on this thread. Alternating between delusions of grandeur and destructive self-deprecating behaviour is a sign of depression and sometimes I think it defines pilots as a professional group as well.

I happen to agree with you, getting anyone to agree about anything is frustrating and in the short term doomed to failure unless people keep kicking at it.

[Gannet167]

I like the idea in principle of having a professional association to belong to and while the basic principles stated sound nice, I'd really like to know in reality what role the organization would play and how it would action its intent. To say "improve the profile of pilots" is a nice idea, but what does it mean? How would you do it? A big marketing campaign like the insurance industry does to promote licensed insurance brokers? To what end? Improving the working conditions is also a great and long overdue goal - but how? Will we join hands in solidarity and collectively strike until every operator agrees to a new labor code? I guess my point is these sound like great ideas but I'd love to know what the strategy is behind achieving them. I'd love to belong to an exclusive and esoteric club - but without an action plan it may not be very productive. I trust there is something more than just these audacious goals on their own. I'd be curious to know.

Lawyers have to be admitted to the Bar Association - which determines who gets admitted to the club and a lawyer can be disbarred for screwing up. Doctors have to belong to the College of Physicians and be in good standing. Accountants and engineers have their own take on this. The thing with each of these organizations is they set their own standards, make the entrance exams (or participate in designing them) determine what "professional" conduct is in the context of that profession, decide how the "work" will be done (procedures) and have to admit or can kick out members (controlling who gets to belong and therefore practice the trade/craft). All of them require significant contributions to be made to fund the organization. They have significant power, because they define the profession. Accountants decide what the "Generally Accepted Accounting Principles" are (GAAP) and although they're not written into law, even Revenue Canada follows what the accountants say is the way to count beans.

In the case of pilots, TC sets the standards, makes the entrance exams, writes the CARS. TC gives out licenses and takes them away. HRDC Canada writes the labor law. If you want to change working conditions for pilots, I'd bet that a bunch of guys self forming a "College" and telling employers "we think....." is not going to get far. It sounds like unionization. If change is needed, TC and HRDC Canada are probably the organizations that need to be lobbied. Pilots generally don't define our craft, we follow what the regulators tell us to do.

Perhaps a college of pilots can change that and take a leadership role in defining how the job gets done and who gets to belong. But this would be a dramatic change and takeover of power from the present TC empire. With a few years and a lot of support from a large majority of pilots, the College could perhaps take on a credible role as an advisory group to concerned government departments. But how much will the dues be and what tangible benefit can a guy starting out realize from the College?

I like the idea, just curious about where the rubber would hit the road.

[loopy]

Some good stuff here. Thanks to College West and Gannett. It's been a while since I've caught up on or participated in the discussion on this topic. Like Gannet I've thought we may have to go the way of a professional association, at least to start. Then with experience, a track record and some credibility, there may be a better chance of becoming the "college" and actually having a hand in licensing and standards. As an association, as the membership and influence grows, we could definitly be lobbying on behalf of safety and working conditions.

There are some professional groups that do it a little differently than the college of physicians, lawyers and accountants. Psychologists, for example, in at least a couple of provinces, have both a college and an association. The college sets the regulations, fee structures, ethics, minimum qualifications, etc. The association is a group that supports those in the profession.

While I'm not saying impossible, I think there may have to be a middle ground or voice before TC hands those reigns over.

[scopiton]

luckyboy and gannet go there and read
http://www.collegeofpilots.ca/
the college's aim is to have TC delagating to the college the task to define standards and training for professional pilots.
visit the site, it defines the College's general guidelines.

[industrypolice]

Its a step in the right direction, but until pilots become more educated like 99% of society and realize that its not ok to work for free or below minimum wage because of your undying passion for flying, then nothing will happen.

Flight schools are still pumping out gullible students who beleive that working ramp will get you anywhere. The industry is run by insurance companies, ramp time does not equal flight time and anyone can make a promise.

[scopiton]

to have better educated people applying for flying job you might have to change standards, or the general career path and the industry's mindset. that's why everything won't change right now but in few years.
taking the habit to think long-term should be the pilot's mindset in general, instead of compensating a poor paycheck with hours in the logbook. Personally I don't pay bills with my logbook.
each one his own.

[Hedley]

the college's aim is to have TC delagating to the college the task to define standards and training for professional pilots

An awful lot of us are sure hoping that never happens.

[Big Pistons Forever]

the college's aim is to have TC delagating to the college the task to define standards and training for professional pilots

An awful lot of us are sure hoping that never happens.

How can it be any worse than it is now ? Flight Instructors that were students themselves last week teaching CPL students, a CPL course with requirements that are so low it is a complete joke, IFR training given by instructors that have never been inside a real cloud and with a sylabus that hasn't changed in 30 years despite massive changes in how IFR works in the real world, ATPL's that are handed out like laundry soap coupons.......

[ajet32]

I left a regulated Profession and became a pilot 24 years ago, and it was the best decision of my life. I can say I came up the hard way and made most if not all of the mistakes one could in the career. I now fly a 705 jet A/C for a reasonable wage.
I didn't like the idea of a group setting standards to practice after I already got the training and I'm not sure I like it now. My fear is the few setting standards for the many and leaving little room for an individual to do his own thing within the present regulations.
I presently hold both a Canadian TC ATPL and an FAA ATPL as well as validations from several JAA countries. They are based on my ICAO TC ATPL. ICAO standard is recognized worldwide. How will this College be recognized if they enter into licencing. Will our ATPL still be worth something. That is the most important question for me. I have worked overseas where my licence was well respected. I hope to again based on an ICAO ATPL
OK rant over.
Cheers

[scopiton]

An awful lot of us are sure hoping that never happens.

what do you mean by that hedley ?

[Hedley]

Pilots are already adequately regulated and licensed by Transport Canada Aviation - we don't need any more of that. We don't need yet another layer of bureaucracy, either private or public sector.

What pilots need is a union, plain and simple, which prevents them from undercutting each other with respect to wages. Pilots are their own worst enemies- hardly a day goes by here on this website, without someone offering to work for free. That's the problem you need to address, because it results in poverty-level wages for entry-level (and even mid-level) pilots.

It won't happen, of course.

[Bede]

Hedley,

But wouldn't a union also be an added layer of bureaucracy?

Not that low wages at the beginning are justified, but there are many other professions that are worse. Teachers often have to volunteer for a year to get interviews for paid positions, firefighters pay $X00 for entrance exams, to which they have a 1% chance of getting hired, not to mention unpaid internships at many companies.

[Hedley]

wouldn't a union also be an added layer of bureaucracy?

For sure - I've paid plenty of union dues in my life. But it's pretty clear what a union does, and doesn't, and no union issues airline transport pilot licences.

Pilots need a union primarily so they can't stab each other in the back, and secondarily to negotiate a reasonable deal with some pretty unpleasant and predatory management. Pilots don't need more licensing/regulatory overhead. God knows we already have enough of that in Canada. IMHO.

As far as sh1t wages being justified at the beginning of the career ... I dunno. I've heard all the arguments about lawyers and doctors interning, but I still don't see what that has to do with paying some guy $15,000 to fly a turbo-prop at a regional, so the president of the company can buy the latest mercedes for both his wife and his mistress.

Someone flying a turbo-prop at a regional is NOT an intern.

[scopiton]

I agree with you hedley

[tzu]

Pilots need a union primarily so they can't stab each other in the back, and secondarily to negotiate a reasonable deal with some pretty unpleasant and predatory management. Pilots don't need more licensing/regulatory overhead. God knows we already have enough of that in Canada. IMHO.

As far as sh1t wages being justified at the beginning of the career ... I dunno. I've heard all the arguments about lawyers and doctors interning, but I still don't see what that has to do with paying some guy $15,000 to fly a turbo-prop at a regional, so the president of the company can buy the latest mercedes for both his wife and his mistress.

Someone flying a turbo-prop at a regional is NOT an intern.

Well said Hedley! In fact, YOUR POST IS THE ONLY ONE THAT MAKES SENSE (the others are 20+ pages of b/s).
I've never liked or disliked unions, but, seeing how cut-throat this industry is for new AND seasoned pilots, I'd have to agree that a union is the only thing that will change this shit beast of an industry.

Just like you said - Pilots are indeed their worst enemies.

[Heliian]

A union will not solve any problems, just create more. How can you enforce the hiring of unionized staff? Also, if you've ever worked in a union you will know that they only cover the screw-ups. Also, a unionized wage maxes out pretty quickly with no room for reward, everyone gets paid the same, the slackers and the hard working ambitious people. Unions are like Communist countries, good in theory but hardly worth it.

[Rubberbiscuit]

to have better educated people applying for flying job you might have to change standards, or the general career path and the industry's mindset. that's why everything won't change right now but in few years.
taking the habit to think long-term should be the pilot's mindset in general, instead of compensating a poor paycheck with hours in the logbook. Personally I don't pay bills with my logbook.
each one his own.

Nothing wrong with improved standards..... as long as it does not mean a lot more hoops to jump through or significantly increased training costs. We all came through meeting the standards more or less, and I would personally feel rotten if was part of making it a lot tougher and much more expensive for new students, than the standards and training that saw me through.

In my generation of pilots whom started close to 20 years ago, a commercial and fresh IFR was widely seen as a ticket to learn You cannot teach the experience that real life commercial flying will provide. Besides... I can't think of many or any operators that would take a 250hr pilot and send him out there single pilot IFR.


I also agree with everything ajet32 and Hedley has said so far.

[scopiton]

heliian
I understand your argument and your fear but I believe you never really worked for a unionized company.
to guarantee a minimum starting wage, having your days off respected, and not having to fight against your employer to respect your duties and rest period, those are things a union can defend.
it has nothing to do with hard work and reward, who deserves more than the other.
you don't like communism and that's your right, but the industry now looks more like anarchy, which is worst and much more left orientated .

rubber
I agree with you an IFR is just a ticket to learn. Improving standards can also mean a 250 hrs pilot starting in the industry with a better knowledge of operations, or a better knowledge of Air law. The ignorance about Car's from younger pilots is sometimes stunning and that is not normal. how can you defend yourself and say " I can't" to your boss asking you to do something illegal if you don't even know the law as you should ?
improving standards could also mean a check ride every 6 months, not to renew anything, just a check ride as a refresher concerning procedures, company procedures, aircraft performances and system knowledge, a manual gear extension on jacks just to see how it is for real instead of discovering it in flight, in bad weather, etc etc. I'm sure you get the picture. I'd be curious to know if there's a 703/704 operator in canada who organizes rides on a regular basis just to make sure their pilots are not too rusty, in addition to the ppc renewal ?
And to finish my rant , the purpose is not to create a narrower selection, but to improve the standards in an industry who is pulling everything to the bottom line, salary, training, and knowledge.

realistic? may be not - doable ? may be yes.

end of rant