F-35 looking more like white elephant

[2R]

Many years ago ,while sitting on some wooden boxes at the old Avro plant.Me and some old pals where watching them put up some tents for the "fake roll out " of the first CF-18 at the historic plant that made the Arrow and other secret toys for various military depts.I say fake roll out as no CF-18 where built at the historic plant,but after the fake roll out the Canadian government gave millions of dollars to keep good paying jobs that would support a family in the Toronto area.
One of the guys said that the CF-18 would be the last manned fighter that Canada would makely because the of the developement of missiles that could pull 50 g and attack at mach 9 with good aquisition capabilities.A manned aircraft that was so much slower and had a huge turn would not last long against the next generation of missiles.
Any aircraft can fly over goat herders and camel jockeys with impunity.
The F-35 would not be able to fly up the Volga with impunity.Inspite of the advertised stealth capabilities it is just another target to an upgraded detection system.
Perhaps that is why some of the boffins are working on cloaking sytems that make missile aquisition almost impossible.That technology is what we should be spending our money on not supporting old systems that are probably already redundant against a first world foe.

[frosti]

Many years ago ,while sitting on some wooden boxes at the old Avro plant.Me and some old pals where watching them put up some tents for the "fake roll out " of the first CF-18 at the historic plant that made the Arrow and other secret toys for various military depts.I say fake roll out as no CF-18 where built at the historic plant,but after the fake roll out the Canadian government gave millions of dollars to keep good paying jobs that would support a family in the Toronto area.
One of the guys said that the CF-18 would be the last manned fighter that Canada would makely because the of the developement of missiles that could pull 50 g and attack at mach 9 with good aquisition capabilities.A manned aircraft that was so much slower and had a huge turn would not last long against the next generation of missiles.
Any aircraft can fly over goat herders and camel jockeys with impunity.
The F-35 would not be able to fly up the Volga with impunity.Inspite of the advertised stealth capabilities it is just another target to an upgraded detection system.
Perhaps that is why some of the boffins are working on cloaking sytems that make missile aquisition almost impossible.That technology is what we should be spending our money on not supporting old systems that are probably already redundant against a first world foe.

[trampbike]

The F-35 would not be able to fly up the Volga with impunity.Inspite of the advertised stealth capabilities it is just another target to an upgraded detection system.

I hope LM hired you for some consulting about R&D and advanced technology applications. If they did not, they don't know what they are missing, so please call them and offer your services.

[Colonel Sanders]

How about for free, I tell the gov't to buy the PAK FA and put western avionics in it?

And when they have that project completed, sell the result to any other gov't that wants an F-35?

I know, bad politics. Better to have good politics, and end up with something inferior. Got that.

[trampbike]

CS, do you have any idea how expensive is the PAK-FA and how much it would cost to change the avionics and operate it?

Can you explain to us how the PAK-FA would be a better choice than the F35 for the role that Canada intends it to have?

Given our total lack of knowledge about complex systems such as DAS, can you povide us with reasons as to why the PAK-FA would outperform the F35?

Given the recently proven combat superiority (let's say since the F15 and F16 are operational) of western fighters against russian jets, what makes you think the PAK-FA kicks ass that much?

[Colonel Sanders]

You're right - it's not even worth doing a comparison, because we all know russian stuff is all junk. This is why whenever a western astronaut wants to go into space, he has to ride a russian rocket.

If we agree with your opinion that all russian stuff is junk, why would we need a good airplane anyways?

[Beefitarian]

Calm down.

NASA will be launching their own rockets as soon as they get some in at Walmart from China. Just like Canada it would be too expensive to build things they want.

[frosti]

You're right - it's not even worth doing a comparison, because we all know russian stuff is all junk. This is why whenever a western astronaut wants to go into space, he has to ride a russian rocket.

If we agree with your opinion that all russian stuff is junk, why would we need a good airplane anyways?

No one said that Russian stuff is junk. Your suggestion of a RCAF PAKFA with western hardware is beyond stupid. Stop trolling.

[2R]

The F-35 would not be able to fly up the Volga with impunity.Inspite of the advertised stealth capabilities it is just another target to an upgraded detection system.

I hope LM hired you for some consulting about R&D and advanced technology applications. If they did not, they don't know what they are missing, so please call them and offer your services.

I do not have the correct union card for working at LM.To work there you need a Phd from Purdue,Emery-Riddle,UND or been a member of the Von Braun rocketeers.

[Colonel Sanders]

Your suggestion of a RCAF PAKFA with western hardware is beyond stupid

I guess Sukhoi is beyond stupid, too then.

http://www.airrecognition.com/index.php ... iew&id=253

Western avionics, guidance pods and weapons can be fitted optionally

What's the name of your fighter jet manufacturing company, frosti?

[Shiny Side Up]

I guess Sukhoi is beyond stupid, too then.

To be technical, its been the French and the Israelis who have been busy comming up with western avionics suites to be retrofitted to Russian aircraft. Then again, these two have always had that "like we care what you think" advantage when it comes to the manufacture of war machines and their sale and distribution. Unlike Canada who likes to maintain a pleasent facade when it comes to what we make in this regard. Unfortunante, obviously there's a market we could tap there, though I suppose when it comes to defense our primary goal is to play nice with our friends to the south. After all, wouldn't be the first time we bought stuff that didn't meet our needs to make them happy.

[AuxBatOn]

CS,

Please tell me how the logistical chain would work with a Russian airplane?? Don't forget to include contingency planning like the possibility for Russia to use this as political leverage against us (ie: If you don't give us X piece of land, you will not get any parts for your airplanes anymore).

[xsbank]

I guess it would be harder to get parts for a SU-30 than, say, a particular 3-engine search and rescue helicopter which is made in the West...

Interesting, the SU-30 can do 3000 KM with "internal fuel" and it has 2 engines and 2 seats. How far can an F35 go, say, over the Arctic on one engine...

Somebody listen to Hedley cough Colonel Sanders - he is actually making sense.

"I have decided to buy a new car. Chevrolet says they will build exactly what I want in 2015 but I can run my old POS beater until then, I'll even give them a huge down-payment now, just to be sure I get the colour I want. I decided that buying a 2012 BMW right now makes no sense because there might be a labour problem and I won't be able to get parts from Germany. Besides, the MW radio won't work over here."

Did I get that right?

[Hawkerflyer]

RCAF flying Russian equipment?! That'll be the day.

[frosti]

Interesting, the SU-30 can do 3000 KM with "internal fuel" and it has 2 engines and 2 seats. How far can an F35 go, say, over the Arctic on one engine...

Oh boy, here we go with the one engine thing again..... How about you do some research of Western 5th engine reliability and technology vs that of two Russian made Saturn engines. Results will surprise you. Let me know when Russia fields a 5th gen engine that has over 10k hours on it. Don't let facts get in the way of your obvious obsession of video-game ruski fighter jets. Russia has some catching up to do to Lockheed Martin and Boeing.

P&W's F135 Engine Exceeds 20,000 Hours Powering the F-35 14 Feb 2012

http://www.asdnews.com/news-40979/P&W_s ... e_F-35.htm

"Pratt & Whitney's F135 engine – exclusively powering Lockheed Martin's fifth-generation F-35 Lightning II – exceeded 20,000 total engine hours while powering the fleet of F-35 flight test aircraft, including 17,700 ground test hours and 2,500 flight test hours. This marks yet another milestone for Pratt & Whitney and its partners. Pratt & Whitney is a United Technologies Corp. (NYSE: UTX) company.

"The F135-powered F-35 had an extraordinary 2011 in flight test, completing nearly 1,000 flights and powering the successful STOVL shipboard trials, and it is on track for an even better 2012," said Bennett Croswell, president of Military Engines, Pratt & Whitney...."

[Colonel Sanders]

how the logistical chain would work with a Russian airplane?

Two ways:

1) you buy a crapload of spares with the original purchase. A huge stockpile of them. You can buy a boatload of parts for what one F35 is going to end up costing. What did an F22 end up costing - a third of a BILLION dollars, per unit?

2) Some parts are perishable, so get the drawings so that you can make your own. Everyone has forgotten that once upon a time, Canada licence-built the F-86 and F-104. Yes, in Canada. I have faith that we could get back to where we were again, in the 1950's, with some work.

I know that this option is politically unfeasible, so it is doomed to failure, regardless of it's merits. Apparently it is so ridiculous, it doesn't even deserve consideration.

And that's a problem that a lot of us have, with the F35. We are told that we are so stupid to even look at any other options, because it's the only aircraft that will do the job, regardless of it's eventual cost, delayed delivery dates, or limited capabilities.

here we go with the one engine thing again

Western turbine engines never fail. Got that. A lot of my father's friends died when their turbine engines failed in their F-86's and F-104's. Glad to know we have that problem solved.

Remember Jake Mulhall? He died when his engine failed during a maintenance test flight at Cold Lake. He ejected by the book, but his trajectory carried him into the fireball, and that was the end of Jake.

Before your time, I guess. And before western turbine engines stopped failing.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Interesting, the SU-30 can do 3000 KM with "internal fuel" and it has 2 engines and 2 seats. How far can an F35 go, say, over the Arctic on one engine...

Oh boy, here we go with the one engine thing again..... How about you do some research of Western 5th engine reliability and technology vs that of two Russian made Saturn engines. Results will surprise you. Let me know when Russia fields a 5th gen engine that has over 10k hours on it. Don't let facts get in the way of your obvious obsession of video-game ruski fighter jets. Russia has some catching up to do to Lockheed Martin and Boeing.

P&W's F135 Engine Exceeds 20,000 Hours Powering the F-35 14 Feb 2012

http://www.asdnews.com/news-40979/P&W_s ... e_F-35.htm

"Pratt & Whitney's F135 engine – exclusively powering Lockheed Martin's fifth-generation F-35 Lightning II – exceeded 20,000 total engine hours while powering the fleet of F-35 flight test aircraft, including 17,700 ground test hours and 2,500 flight test hours. This marks yet another milestone for Pratt & Whitney and its partners. Pratt & Whitney is a United Technologies Corp. (NYSE: UTX) company.

"The F135-powered F-35 had an extraordinary 2011 in flight test, completing nearly 1,000 flights and powering the successful STOVL shipboard trials, and it is on track for an even better 2012," said Bennett Croswell, president of Military Engines, Pratt & Whitney...."

Like he is going to say "our engine is a POS"

Frosti, how about posting some comments on F 35 engine reliability from independent sources ?

[xsbank]

Yeah, that "one engine thing again." Tell me it doesn't matter that we will send our guys waaay up north on one only?

Just curious, but what part of "it doesn't work yet," and the hours are on "test engines" don't you get? The F35, even the dumbed-down simple model we are buying isn't being built yet and they can't even say when it will be.

Look back on how many Hornets have been lost with their 2 engines and their mature design and tell me you don't think its a huge risk putting our guys in these unproven light singles?

Aren't we supposed to go to tender whenever our government goes out to spend (my) our money? Did that happen? Drink some more Koolaid and let's spend the kickbacks like Ornge did.

The program stinks.

[Colonel Sanders]

RCAF flying Russian equipment?! That'll be the day.

See? Regardless of it's merits, it is not an option because people don't want the best equipment.

[Shiny Side Up]

how the logistical chain would work with a Russian airplane?

Two ways:

1) you buy a crapload of spares with the original purchase. A huge stockpile of them. You can buy a boatload of parts for what one F35 is going to end up costing. What did an F22 end up costing - a third of a BILLION dollars, per unit?


2) Some parts are perishable, so get the drawings so that you can make your own. Everyone has forgotten that once upon a time, Canada licence-built the F-86 and F-104. Yes, in Canada. I have faith that we could get back to where we were again, in the 1950's, with some work.

There is also another solution. Unlike the Americans, the Russians have long gotten used to the idea that people are going to copy and rip off their airplanes. The Chinese have been doing it for a long time, and the Russians didn't really give them a hard time about it since they invented the idea. What that means is that there are other sources of Russian airplanes, and parts besides, well, Russia. China being the most obvious, where they are also partnering with Russia already to build Sukhois, or whatever name they will eventually give their copy. Less obvious is India, who have been purchasing and operating a large fleet of Russian aircraft. One should note that these are only the two largest players. Maybe we should make India some sort of deal to train pilots over here in exchange for some Sukhois... Should we mention that Boeing has been dallying with joint projects with Sukhoi? So much for national pride being the biggest driver here.

One should also remember that The US has been operating their own small fleet of MIGs for quite a while, even during the depths of the cold war if you had enough money you could aquire Russian hardware one way or another.

Just a thought.

[Tom H]

Here have a highly opinionated option....

With all the Military Aircraft around the would being parked we should be buying a mix of USED Fighter/Combat support aircraft.
Overhauling and custom tailoring them to our needs in Canada using Canadian Technology (we have the companies by the way), buying the licenses if needed and then putting them into service.

For a lot less money we could have a mix of:
- Long range interceptors with customized/used (C)F-15s
- Current CF-18s that have been upgraded would become our forward support aircraft for Northern bases.
- International commitments met with customized/used F-18E Super Hornets.

and the ability to produce our own spares as required as well as continue to maintain and overhaul.

With money left over for what we really need:
A number of large Search and Rescue/Coastal and Northern patrol aircraft.
A large number mid to small Search and Rescue/liaison aircraft.
More Search and Rescue/Transport Helicopters.
And some other important needs.

As well as rebuilding an important industry and technology.

Tom

[frosti]

Frosti, how about posting some comments on F 35 engine reliability from independent sources ?

Don't have to, the results speak for themselves. The PW F117 5th gen engine in the Raptor has had great success.

RCAF flying Russian equipment?! That'll be the day.

See? Regardless of it's merits, it is not an option because people don't want the best equipment.

Yeah, that "one engine thing again." Tell me it doesn't matter that we will send our guys waaay up north on one only?

Just curious, but what part of "it doesn't work yet," and the hours are on "test engines" don't you get? The F35, even the dumbed-down simple model we are buying isn't being built yet and they can't even say when it will be.

Look back on how many Hornets have been lost with their 2 engines and their mature design and tell me you don't think its a huge risk putting our guys in these unproven light singles?

Aren't we supposed to go to tender whenever our government goes out to spend (my) our money? Did that happen? Drink some more Koolaid and let's spend the kickbacks like Ornge did.

The program stinks.

Thanks for your comment. Having a single-engine fighter jet is so horrific, pilots are afraid to join the forces.

With all the Military Aircraft around the would being parked we should be buying a mix of USED Fighter/Combat support aircraft.

If buying used hardware is such a great idea we would have done that already. Who cares about our pilots right? Let them fly the things until they break apart in the air, just so we can "save" a few bucks. The CF-18 is almost done, the wings are cracking and you can only stuff so much upgraded avionics in it.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Frosti, how about posting some comments on F 35 engine reliability from independent sources ?

Don't have to, the results speak for themselves. The PW F117 5th gen engine in the Raptor has had great success.

Since the PW F117 engine was the derivative of the civil PW2000 engine chosen to power the C 17 I fail to see your point...........

[Colonel Sanders]

If buying used hardware is such a great idea we would have done that already

I guess you have forgotten the used CF-101 Voodoos we got from the US. Before your time.

BTW, you very clearly think I'm stupid compared to you. I accept your rhetoric. What did you net last year? Since I am stupid, you obviously cleared more than I did.

[WileyCoyote]

Was there even a competition? Or did the government just bend over in return for some other back door deal?