Canjet

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:30 am

I think it's worth pointing out that while I don't agree with IA's specific examples, there definitely is some "grey" area. Most runs don't start out instantly profitable, they usually include at least the possibility of loss of x number of dollars over y period of time...it's called market development. (I believe WestJet calls it "market stimulation" heheh) As well, although the concept of "loss leader" in the airline industry is rarely used, it is conceivable a run may be operated at a slight loss if it was providing feed to another, more profitable run or center. Or perhaps operated at a loss at low season and profitably at high season. So no...it's not all black and white.

Ok can we get back to the topic of the thread? Anyone know what the pilot hiring situation is at CanJet these days? Like, someone who actually works there.

rickenbacker · Post by **rickenbacker** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:00 am

The situation is in the past week we have had 4 pilots quit and a couple more waiting for their medical results for AC. We've lost about 12 pilots in the past month or so. (put in resignations)They are up to 97 on the list. Out of the 13 left there's only 3 that have expressed interest in returning. (the others have more stable jobs) There's also a couple of contract pilots overseas that would like to return as well. These aren't exact figures but it'll give you an idea.
Things are suppose to slow down a little over the summer so CJ might make it through the summer without an initial course.

Personally I think they're just treading water. If there was any intention of expansion or an interest in the future they wouldn't sit idly by and watch as their pilots head out the door.

bmc · Post by **bmc** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:20 am

Apologies for the hijack

Huge Hammer · Post by **Huge Hammer** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:40 pm

Well according to CanJet people YQM never made any money yet the flew it more than once on a daily basis.

And before this year YQM-CUN seasonally would have made gobs of cash yet nobody has flown it until this year despite the airlines being told by travel agencies for years they wanted this market, and lo and behold when they've started it, you can hardly buy a seat out of YQM.

Simple examples.

I find the YQM comment intersting as I had not heard that.

YQM-CUN I don't think counts as it is not a scheduled route but rather a charter.

Travel agencies tell airlines all the time about "surefire winning" routes and more often then not are wrong.

I think you obviously have a passion and interest in aviation but I don't think your comprehension of the airline business is the greatest.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:23 pm

Well, while you may be right HH, on that same note I don't think there's anyone on here who has the big picture business wise, I don't think of pilots as knowing any more about a companies financial strategies than does a dispatcher and/or customer service agent for that matter.

There are precious few in control of any airline who know the real facts, no employee knows them all,nor should they, yet they may know some that managment may not fully understand, or be too ignorant to listen to.

Because such massive organizations are governed by so few, it is human nature that there will be poor decisions made in every department once and a while.

Employees are tools of business to create a profit, every level is used by the company to make money, the tools don't need to know why they're doing what they're doing, but the company greases them once and a while to make sure they don't start squeaking.

Everyone in their field thinks they are the most important cog, that's also human nature. Take any cog out, it stops working, that includes management right down to the people who clean the garbages at the airport.

Coming back on topic, KR is not a stupid man. I don't know him personally, and from opinions are experiences on here, he may be a complete A**hole, or he may just be trying to protect the companies (IMP) bottom line, which is what HIS job in the system is.

I've seen several airlines come and go, and in most cases people really liked working for said company until the sh!t hit the fan.

While the odds are a million to one it seems these days, don't think that if WJA was going south that the same thing couldn't happen to their employees. The philosophy of not laying people off only applies so long as there is work to be had somewhere.

Look what happened to AC when things went bad, who took the hit? The employees first, well what do you expect? Yes it sucks when people lose jobs/money and seniority, not to mention security.

The same thing happened at CanJet, the Michel LeBlanc triumvirate, or however many screw-ups he had, and the same thing will happen to the next airline in trouble. Every airline on the planet that has been around for a while has gone through it, and every airline that hasn't yet, will at some point, and when it does the employees will pay first, and will keep on paying long after the dust settles.

What amazes me more is how pissed off everyone is, if you've been in the airline industry for more than a few years you should come to expect it.

There is no industry with as much instability as the airline industry, nobodys jobs are 100% safe, not that A340 Captain, and not that 11 year WJA Captain either.

This industry rides in waves, the wave is going up now, and everyone is enjoying the ride, well except for CanJet according to its employees anyway.

captain thicknjuicy · Post by **captain thicknjuicy** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:08 pm

boys, for @#$! sakes, you're killin this beautiful thread with that boring rhetoric,

its puttin me to sleep.

CanadaEH · Post by **CanadaEH** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:08 pm

Well, while you may be right HH, on that same note I don't think there's anyone on here who has the big picture business wise, I don't think of pilots as knowing any more about a companies financial strategies than does a dispatcher and/or customer service agent for that matter.

The longer an aircraft flies in a day, the cheaper it is to operate. That is why aircraft utilization is important.

The longer distance an aircraft flies, the cheaper it is to operate. That is why keeping costs low is so important. The longer the ASL, the lower the CASM gets. On the flipside, the shorter the ASL, the higher the costs. This is where aircraft type becomes so important. Some aircraft are capable of doing shorter hops while others are not (also see Unit costs).

More flights operated in/out of an airport lower the overall cost of operating flights in that city. You're able to spread your costs over a longer period of time.

Offering a network for people to connect with attracts more business. This is why Canjet had trouble with YVR/YYC. It's network east-west wasn't strong enough to attract people, especially with much more options coming from WS and AC.

Route planning is complex and something I'd love to learn more about. Someone once told me that Eastern Canada is a seasonal market. Most people who live there don't travel much during the winter; it's the people that are displaced across Canada that return during the winter (for the most part) for visits. As much as you'd love to have multiple airlines servicing as many markets as possible the fact is that its not economically viable to do so.

Stick-Shaker · Post by **Stick-Shaker** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:04 pm

captain thicknjuicy wrote:boys, for @#$! sakes, you're killin this beautiful thread with that boring rhetoric, its puttin me to sleep.

Wake me up when this is over...snore.

Until then I'll be the guy watching re-runs of Wok with Yan on the Food Network.

wooden spoon · Post by **wooden spoon** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:03 am

canjet cut its(or his if you like) domestic sched to do charters,thus loosing alot of customer loyalty.which is hard to keep in the first place.(ie for most people how much and when are we leaving.....)Then when he needed it,the domestic revenue bookings were a little soft last fall,he cut and ran.He expected canjet to generate revenue(perform) as all IMP group of companies are expected to do,or else.He will cut and run agaiin if he sees fit.Not to mention it looks suspiciously like union busting....oh thats right they are still there.That doesnt impress him,or Costco jules

bmc · Post by **bmc** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:03 am

Price driven passengers using no frills airline are price driven and rarely show loyalty. They don't care if the plane is blue or green. What they care about is low affordable airfare on a safe reliable airline.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:51 am

bmc wrote:Price driven passengers using no frills airline are price driven and rarely show loyalty. They don't care if the plane is blue or green. What they care about is low affordable airfare on a safe reliable airline.

I can tell you there was a lot of customer loyalty with CanJet.

Maritimers are not like Upper Canadians, people down here tend to stick by other Maritimers, even if the product wasn't quite as good as the competition. I can't count how many times I used to hear people say they would only fly CanJet because they were a maritime company. That being said a lot of times people coming to buy a ticket would buy from the lowest seller as well.

Unlike the many previous failures in this country, CanJet was well respected in the public down here because they went out in a hurry but did it (in a hurry) the best way they could have... they got everyone home, and everyone got their money back who couldn't fly.

wrc · Post by **wrc** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:05 pm

Maritimers are not like Upper Canadians, people down here tend to stick by other Maritimers, even if the product wasn't quite as good as the competition.

Are they? Air Atlantic ran a mirror schedule to Air Nova for 12 years. The service was on par and in most cases superior to Air Nova/Air Canada but the public flocked to the Red Team leaving Air Atlantic/Canadi>n empty.
Commonly a Dash would leave YQY-YHZ with 6 or so on 9A while QK was full. Air Nova ran a superior marketing effort with better connectivity to Air Canada. Air Atlantic was owned 100% by Atlantic Canadians (Dobbin then Rowe) while Air Nova was 100% owned by Air Canada of Montreal Quebec.
I think by past experience (EPA & Air Atlantic) that Maritimers will fly with who they are aware of and gives them the best service and price. The local cards been played and lost.

Big Blue Sky · Post by **Big Blue Sky** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:00 pm

Porter is going to be doing Toronto-Halifax return (4 times daily; 2 times through Ottawa and 2 times through Montreal) beginning on June 29/07 on the Q400.

That will probably make Uncle Kenny green with envy!!

http://www.q400.com/q400/en/range.jsp

http://www.aviation.ca/content/view/4299/117/

Clint23 · Post by **Clint23** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:35 pm

Here is a questionfor any one in the know: Are the pilots of CanJet 2.5 union? And if so is it the same one that led Kenny to shut down CJ 2?

Airband · Post by **Airband** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:35 pm

Big Blue Sky wrote:Porter is going to be doing Toronto-Halifax return (4 times daily; 2 times through Ottawa and 2 times through Montreal) beginning on June 29/07 on the Q400.

That will probably make Uncle Kenny green with envy!!

...same colour as pax will be on some late afternoon flts.

Big Blue Sky · Post by **Big Blue Sky** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:48 pm

Green also the color of the $72K that the Q400 pilot is making to start ....
yuk-yuk-yuk !!!

... Sorry couldn't resist airhead.

Stick-Shaker · Post by **Stick-Shaker** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:03 pm

Big Blue Sky wrote:Green also the color of the $72K that the Q400 pilot is making to start ....

Another example of under-paid pilots. And if anyone out there thinks that 72K is enough for a Captain on the Q, you need to get with it. 72K stinks especially when they have no idea what they will be paying you in year 2, 3, 4 etc.

eastdude · Post by **eastdude** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:08 pm

Clint23 wrote:Here is a questionfor any one in the know: Are the pilots of CanJet 2.5 union? And if so is it the same one that led Kenny to shut down CJ 2?

Yes they are represented by ALPA.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:00 am

Big Blue Sky wrote:Porter is going to be doing Toronto-Halifax return (4 times daily; 2 times through Ottawa and 2 times through Montreal) beginning on June 29/07 on the Q400.

That will probably make Uncle Kenny green with envy!!

http://www.q400.com/q400/en/range.jsp

http://www.aviation.ca/content/view/4299/117/

GREAT NEWS! Glad to see them moving east.

CanadaEH · Post by **CanadaEH** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:49 am

Prices in July.....

Porter $199 (one-stop) Q400:
dep YTZ 645
arr YHZ 1100
4:15 hr

Air Canada $177 (Tango) (direct) A320:
dep YYZ 655
arr YHZ 1000
3:05 hr

Westjet $177 (direct) 737:
dep YYZ 715
arr YHZ 1016
3:01 hr

Porter $199 (direct) Q400:
dep YUL 825
arr YHZ 1100
2:35 hr

Air Canada $207 (direct) E90:
dep YUL 800
arr YHZ 1030

2:30 hr

First of all - It's the same price to fly from YTZ-YUL-YHZ and YUL-YHZ!? Very odd pricing structure. Secondly, with Porter priced ~$20 higher than both AC and WS - I wonder how many are willing to pay a premium for convenience when there's one-stop in YUL (or YOW) and just over an extra hour of flight time!? I'm sure this'll be as "successful" as Harmony's go at YYC-YVR on a CRJ. You'll see real quick why your idea of flying Q400's into Eastern Canada is a bad idea, inverted.....

Old fella · Post by **Old fella** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:02 am

yup........ and I rather be in an E90,A319/320 or CRJ at thirty odd/even thousand instead of a Dash whatever for 2 + something hrs

Big Blue Sky · Post by **Big Blue Sky** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:26 pm

An effective marketing effort will bring in the results that will make Porter successful. The full page contemporary adverts with the racoon/CN Tower-thing, all leave a lasting impression. It is designed to effectively get your attention and then beckon to be tried.

The traveling public is savvy enough to try them, and many will end up as repeat customers. They have made a major effort to identify themselves with distinct branding/strong corporate-contemporary image/ and it should pay off.

People don't necessarily write down enroute times, then pick the quickest enroute time or equipment and then choose that way (logical for a pilot to do that mind you, but not necessarily the way for a passenger like your mom/dad/grandma/daughter etc.). Schedule, convenience and full-service is a strong selling point.

I understand that the Break-Even point is around 50%, so it's very acheivable, given the market that they are entering to hit their route performance targets. The next step in the route development is to add some US destinations to the sked. This will further ensure route performance targets are made as the customer base improves.

Contrast the Porter approach with the way Canjet 1 flogged Toronto-Windsor against Dash 8's or (gasp) Winnipeg-Toronto at 4am against a mulitude of large airline choices with frequent flyer points. Yikes!

There is experienced & proven leadership at the helm, a near-jet, full-service product experience for the passenger. I'm calling this one a winner! It will be around for a long while imo.

Troubleshot · Post by **Troubleshot** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:16 pm

Blue Sky,

I would like to agree with you regarding Porter but I am going to say WestJet and Air Canada/Jazz are already thinking of ways to quash this venture out east by Porter...I am stuggling to figure out what they have to offer customers flying outta YHZ that isn't already there...you can say a different alternative but that will wear off quickly and the regular travelling public will revert back to the best price, shortest trip, best connections, and frequency. I think this would work for Porter if they had more route structure out on the east coast to feed these runs to Montreal, Ottawa, and Toronto but heading out east to an already thin market is ballsy to say the least.

flyin' fish · Post by **flyin' fish** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:42 pm

And what does this have to do with CanJet???

FlySmrt · Post by **FlySmrt** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:59 pm

flyin' fish wrote:And what does this have to do with CanJet???

For the pilots the quit CanJet to work for Air Canada, hopefully it will make their commute to Toronto and Montreal easier cause AC won't be as full!!