The F-35 is not dead

[Rockie]

Also close proximity, there is no better way to distinguish targets close to friendly troops. The apache and A-10 are so successful because they are near enough and slow enough to acquire their target and place the weapons where they're supposed to go. Sometimes that requires a gun which both are so successfully equipped with. Hard to do that from high altitude.

[AuxBatOn]

Not according to the JFIRE Rockie...

With modern sensors, it's way more effective and far safer to stay in the mid-teens in a CAS wheel with 100% eyes on target... It doesn't prevent you from using the gun if you need to.

And yes, I have done CAS in anger.

[Rockie]

With modern sensors, it's way more effective and far safer to stay in the mid-teens in a CAS wheel with 100% eyes on target

With AAA as the only effective threat maybe. Have the mid teens denied to you as a safe zone along with the technology and you'll have to get down in the dirt with the grunts. Do we train for that anymore? Is there a role for weapons like the A-10 and Apache anymore?

I think so.

Edit: Just took a quick look at the J-FIRE document and the 0.1% PI for MK-82's is 425m, less for snake eyes but you have to be pretty low to use those with any accuracy. I'm guessing with laser guidance that may be reduced somewhat, but hardly close in work and the guidance package has to have the conditions to work. How are they with a 3000 foot overcast and 10,000 feet of cloud? According to that document there is still plenty of work for helicopters and other low altitude weapons that come with correspondingly lower minimum distances to friendly troops. I suspect infantry on the ground with the enemy breathing down their throat would consider a medium level drop of munitions only slightly less dangerous than the enemy.

Right off the top of my head I can think of four Canadian families whose faith in accurate targeting from medium altitude no longer exists.

[AuxBatOn]

Try GBU-12, GBU-38, GBU-49... Dumb iron is a thing of the past... We don't do low level CAS for a good reason, it's way more dangerous and not as effective. It hasn't been really done since Vietnam.

Drop a JDAM/LGB or dual mode weapon on coordinates derived from your own or ground troops sensors and if required, use your laser or a ground laser for terminal guidance.

Things have changed since you left over a decade ago.

One assumption of CAS is Air Superiority.

[Rockie]

One assumption of CAS is Air Superiority.

That might be, but the lack of air superiority doesn't negate the need for CAS does it? Also air superiority has been enjoyed in every conflict Canada has been involved in since the Korean war. I think it would be a mistake to assume that will always be the case.

We don't do low level CAS for a good reason, it's way more dangerous and not as effective. It hasn't been really done since Vietnam.

So what have attack helicopters and A-10's been doing all this time?

[AuxBatOn]

AH are integral to Ground Units so technically this isn't CAS (I am talking about Fast Air CAS, which is what the JSF will do). A-10s don't do it anymore now that they have advanced sensors (Sniper).

I know at least 1 Brit family that lost a member because of mis-id of British Tanks. The A-10s were low level.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fi ... e_incident
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I6-2NJhnf4

[Rockie]

A question of contemporary definitions and semantics then. What will you do and what will you call it if and when you're called to support ground troops without air superiority and have to grovel in the mud?

[AuxBatOn]

Why would you? If you don't have Air Superiority, you are safer up higher, with effective SEAD and OCA. The Brits learned that lesson in January 1991. Oh and your on-station time is longer.

[B208]

......... what will you call it if and when you're called to support ground troops without air superiority and have to grovel in the mud?

WW3

[Rockie]

If you don't have Air Superiority, you are safer up higher, with effective SEAD and OCA.

Doesn't air superiority include SEAD and OCA? Doesn't ineffective SEAD or OCA deprive you of free, uncontested use of the airspace and therefore air superiority? Or as seems most common and necessary in today's campaigns - air supremacy?

[2R]

Now that the Russian bombers have long range MIG fighter escorts ,
How would a F-35 stand up against those super fast MIGS with next generation air to air missiles ?
Those next generation missiles with acquisition that pushed the F-117 stealth fighter into early retirement ?
In boxing, it would be called a mismatch.

[AuxBatOn]

Now that the Russian bombers have long range MIG fighter escorts ,
How would a F-35 stand up against those super fast MIGS with next generation air to air missiles ?
Those next generation missiles with acquisition that pushed the F-117 stealth fighter into early retirement ?
In boxing, it would be called a mismatch.

F-117 is 70's technology. F-35 is 2000s technology. 30 years of rapid progress. The MiGs (you more likely meant Sukhois, but whatever) won't see the JSF.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Love this high tech talk about old vs new technology. However, it's way beyond my knowledge level. We got a tour through a Concorde one night in CVG (they were there on a charter) by the BA skipper of the machine. I was blown away by their panel! It made our clapped out F27 look like a space shuttle! The only glass, was the windshield! Of course, the Concorde used stuff from the 60's.
Hopefully, we'll never see an F-35 duke it out for real with anybody, outside of war games.
Because WWIV, will be fought with sticks and stones.....
Illya

[Big Pistons Forever]

The F 35 boosters are starting to sound a lot like the battleship admirals of the 1920's. Vested in the status quo and unwilling to think about the direction of technological change those admirals dismissed the aircraft carrier as a side show.

The future of tactical air effects is unmanned aircraft. The pace of the development of these systems guarantees that the F 35 will be obsolete before it reaches it end of life date.

In the meantime Canada needs a bridge aircraft to tide us over until the future of the air battlespace becomes clear. There are several off the shelf proven airframes available for delivery now and at a fixed price.

Slowly but surely common sense is starting to be inserted into the F 35 debate. I am confident that Canada will never operate the F 35

Finally a fighter aircraft is one small element of a nations defence capability. I have never seen a rational explanation that defines how a stealthy first strike optimized aircraft that can operate in a high threat environment fits with Canada's defence strategy........

[rxl]

We really haven't learned much have we.
Still focused on finding better, more efficient ways to kill each other.
Pretty sad.

[Illya Kuryakin]

We really haven't learned much have we.
Still focused on finding better, more efficient ways to kill each other.
Pretty sad.

Some things will never change me fears.
Instead of state of the art fighter jets, why not spend that money on a state of the art coast guard? Or irraticate poverty? Seriously. It should be written into our constitution, not to wage war. Defend ourselves? For sure. But, we should never be the aggressor.
Illya

[bizjets101]

Or get dragged in by the aggressor so they can look justified.

[rxl]

Some things will never change me fears.
Instead of state of the art fighter jets, why not spend that money on a state of the art coast guard? Or irraticate poverty? Seriously. It should be written into our constitution, not to wage war. Defend ourselves? For sure. But, we should never be the aggressor.
Illya[/quote]

Amen.

Equip the services with the tools they need to carry out the peace keeping, humanitarian and search and rescue roles safely and efficiently.
Leave the air superiority weapons on the shelf and put the arms dealers out of business once and for all.
Think of the good that could be done for the price of one F-35.
The F-35 should be dead.

[2R]

http://www.janes.com/article/43640/mig- ... ve-air-ops

According to reliable sources and some interesting reading in Janes. The bears were escorted by Mig 31's and fuel tankers.

No mention if any of the aircraft were fitted with the latest supersonic stealth cruise missiles. But you can bet just like the last missile crisis (the Cuban/Turkish one )The Russians will show their latest toys by sailing or maybe flying them right down the middle of the Atlantic just like they did to get JFK to remove the missiles from Turkey.

Those old slow bombers can carry the worlds largest bombs, that are city killers. If they are protected by fast fighter escorts ,some of them might just get through what would be left of the northern defences. Slow second string stealth might not be as effective against such a threat, as we might all be saying we feel the need for speed.

[AuxBatOn]

Equip the services with the tools they need to carry out the peace keeping, humanitarian and search and rescue roles safely and efficiently.

So, you are saying that Canada should:

1- Stop protecting its own borders
2- Withdraw from NORAD (guess who's going to bail Canada out when/if Russia decides to push North to get our ressources)
3- Withdraw from NATO

I suggest you read Canada First Strategy, which is a broad guidance from the Government on what it expects the CAF to prioritize.

[Big Pistons Forever]

(guess who's going to bail Canada out when/if Russia decides to push North to get our resources)
.

If you think the F 35 is going to "bail out Canada" if Russia wants our resources than I would suggest you have an extremely parochial view of the realities of defending our national security interests in the North.

[all_ramped_up]

Maybe we'll have a Government change this year (I hope) that will finally kill off our involvement in the F-35.

What a colossal waste of money this thing is. 180 rounds of ammunition for its cannon? that it can't even fire until 2019... amongst other shortcomings.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... -2019.html

[Diadem]

Maybe we'll have a Government change this year (I hope) that will finally kill off our involvement in the F-35.

What a colossal waste of money this thing is. 180 rounds of ammunition for its cannon? that it can't even fire until 2019... amongst other shortcomings.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... -2019.html

Just like when the newly-elected Liberals cancelled the Sea King replacement? Twenty years later and they're still in the fleet. The F-35 might not be ready until 2019, but if we cancel the order we could have the F-18s running until 2035.

[timel]

(guess who's going to bail Canada out when/if Russia decides to push North to get our resources)
.

If you think the F 35 is going to "bail out Canada" if Russia wants our resources than I would suggest you have an extremely parochial view of the realities of defending our national security interests in the North.

Not only Russia is claiming the ressources in North pole, but the Denmark, Norway and USA.
So far Russians are in a good position with Murmansk city and 300 000 citizens. Canada has Alert with 73 people.

I was thinking F35 vertical take off capability would provide us a great ability to cover the wide Canadian territory. But seems like the F35A Canada wants to get does not have the option.

[AuxBatOn]

(guess who's going to bail Canada out when/if Russia decides to push North to get our resources)
.

If you think the F 35 is going to "bail out Canada" if Russia wants our resources than I would suggest you have an extremely parochial view of the realities of defending our national security interests in the North.

I was referring to NORAD and our mutual defence agreement with the States.