Air Canada Pool
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
-
- Rank 2
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:09 pm
Re: Air Canada Pool
I remember talking to older and experienced pilots about how they would never recommend aviation to their children and the more time I spend in it, the more I have to agree.
There is really only 2 streams to excel in Canada (maybe 3 if you count the military) Not to say there aren't other great jobs out there, but big companies generally pay more.
In most professions you don't have to invest so much in so few baskets. I mean engineers, doctors, lawyers and pick from hundreds of firms and make good $$$. Pilots - what do we got? If WestJet or Canada aren't hiring, the whole wheel comes to a halt.
And there isn't much incentive to fly for the Pasco's or Perimeter's if they can't lead you to Air Canada. It will be pretty damn competitive that 20%. Why put up with crap pay for an indefinite period of time if you can join a profession that is more based on skill not luck.
Face it - aviation in Canada is a lot of luck. The difference between success and bitterness is usually just timing.
There is really only 2 streams to excel in Canada (maybe 3 if you count the military) Not to say there aren't other great jobs out there, but big companies generally pay more.
In most professions you don't have to invest so much in so few baskets. I mean engineers, doctors, lawyers and pick from hundreds of firms and make good $$$. Pilots - what do we got? If WestJet or Canada aren't hiring, the whole wheel comes to a halt.
And there isn't much incentive to fly for the Pasco's or Perimeter's if they can't lead you to Air Canada. It will be pretty damn competitive that 20%. Why put up with crap pay for an indefinite period of time if you can join a profession that is more based on skill not luck.
Face it - aviation in Canada is a lot of luck. The difference between success and bitterness is usually just timing.
Re: Air Canada Pool
I'm curious what will happen to the WAWCON's at the 703-705 levels that are not WJ/Air Canada. Does this mean our 80k/yr B1900 jobs are coming to an end soon as well?
Re: Air Canada Pool
flashheart wrote:I remember talking to older and experienced pilots about how they would never recommend aviation to their children and the more time I spend in it, the more I have to agree.
There is really only 2 streams to excel in Canada (maybe 3 if you count the military) Not to say there aren't other great jobs out there, but big companies generally pay more.
In most professions you don't have to invest so much in so few baskets. I mean engineers, doctors, lawyers and pick from hundreds of firms and make good $$$. Pilots - what do we got? If WestJet or Canada aren't hiring, the whole wheel comes to a halt.
And there isn't much incentive to fly for the Pasco's or Perimeter's if they can't lead you to Air Canada. It will be pretty damn competitive that 20%. Why put up with crap pay for an indefinite period of time if you can join a profession that is more based on skill not luck.
Face it - aviation in Canada is a lot of luck. The difference between success and bitterness is usually just timing.
Interesting point.
Young people get into Aviation because they love to fly. Money is usually secondary....or not even on the list at all initially. This fact is explained by the huge cost associated with flight training....and the question; why would anyone fork out that kind of dough for a somewhat "faint" shot at the "big bucks"? There are too many ways to fall down on this road...and way, way too many far better ways to earn big bucks out in the world, with far less risk. So why do we do it. Love. Unfortunately, having such an amazing job, and making big bucks doing it rarely go hand in hand. If it worked that way there'd be hundreds lined up for every flying job, right from the beginning, all the time. We don't start bitter in this career, we just get that way.....why?
Life happens, that's why.......we get married, buy a house and see those people around us with mundane "9-5 + the commute" jobs buying shiny things. We then look at our career and try and figure out how to make more money without having to sacrifice anything to get it. That's where the bitterness begins. I think if you ask who's bitter in Aviation, it's the ones who didn't have a plan from the beginning. It's those who didn't understand what they were getting into in the first place, and the risks involved with that choice. It's also the ones that let other factors influence their career path. Yes, luck is a factor......but so is determination, careful planning, and sticking to that plan until it leeds you to where you want to be without deviating. THEN, if you fall short a bit, accept your lot in life and make the best of it, and don't forget why you got into the profession in the first place.
Considering the average household income in Canada is around $60,000, no one should be complaining about making $120,000 per year as a Dash 8 skipper, even if it takes years to get there. $100,000 is a very livable wage for an entire family in Canada, and there are tons of positions that pay that or better. When you start making north of $150,000 (trust me), the Government shows no mercy come tax time. This country does not reward motivated individuals looking to improve their lot in life by earning extra money.....they look at you as an ATM machine for everyone else.
Why does a truck driver in Ft. McMurray make $150,000 a year....because no one wants to live in that crap hole. Who wants to be a Doctor and lance boils, freeze-off warts, write prescriptions for snotty babys, dole out birth-control and do pap-smears all day? No friggin thanks. There are trade-offs in every career.
What I'm saying is, if it's all about money, and nothing else...get out while you can, cuz you're in the wrong career.
DP.
Last edited by dukepoint on Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Air Canada Pool
Well said DP.
Have a plan but be flexible. Obviously the road has an awful lot of curves in it.
If WJ or AC is your dream then get on either the teal list or the red list as soon as you can.
This is also a numbers game.
Good luck to all!
Have a plan but be flexible. Obviously the road has an awful lot of curves in it.
If WJ or AC is your dream then get on either the teal list or the red list as soon as you can.
This is also a numbers game.
Good luck to all!
Re: Air Canada Pool
Nicely written.dukepoint wrote:flashheart wrote:I remember talking to older and experienced pilots about how they would never recommend aviation to their children and the more time I spend in it, the more I have to agree.
There is really only 2 streams to excel in Canada (maybe 3 if you count the military) Not to say there aren't other great jobs out there, but big companies generally pay more.
In most professions you don't have to invest so much in so few baskets. I mean engineers, doctors, lawyers and pick from hundreds of firms and make good $$$. Pilots - what do we got? If WestJet or Canada aren't hiring, the whole wheel comes to a halt.
And there isn't much incentive to fly for the Pasco's or Perimeter's if they can't lead you to Air Canada. It will be pretty damn competitive that 20%. Why put up with crap pay for an indefinite period of time if you can join a profession that is more based on skill not luck.
Face it - aviation in Canada is a lot of luck. The difference between success and bitterness is usually just timing.
Interesting point.
Young people get into Aviation because they love to fly. Money is usually secondary....or not even on the list at all initially. This fact is explained by the huge cost associated with flight training....and the question; why would anyone fork out that kind of dough for a somewhat "faint" shot at the "big bucks"? There are too many ways to fall down on this road...and way, way too many far better ways to earn big bucks out in the world, with far less risk. So why do we do it. Love. Unfortunately, having such an amazing job, and making big bucks doing it rarely go hand in hand. If it worked that way there'd be hundreds lined up for every flying job, right from the beginning, all the time. We don't start bitter in this career, we just get that way.....why?
Life happens, that's why.......we get married, buy a house and see those people around us with mundane "9-5 + the commute" jobs buying shiny things. We then look at our career and try and figure out how to make more money without having to sacrifice anything to get it. That's where the bitterness begins. I think if you ask who's bitter in Aviation, it's the ones who didn't have a plan from the beginning. It's those who didn't understand what they were getting into in the first place, and the risks involved with that choice. It's also the ones that let other factors influence their career path. Yes, luck is a factor......but so is determination, careful planning, and sticking to that plan until it leeds you to where you want to be without deviating. THEN, if you fall short a bit, accept your lot in life and make the best of it, and don't forget why you got into the profession in the first place.
Considering the average household income in Canada is around $60,000, no one should be complaining about making $120,000 per year as a Dash 8 skipper, even if it takes years to get there. $100,000 is a very livable wage for an entire family in Canada, and there are tons of positions that pay that or better. When you start making north of $150,000 (trust me), the Government shows no mercy come tax time. This country does not reward motivated individuals looking to improve their lot in life by earning extra money.....they look at you as an ATM machine for everyone else.
Why does a truck driver in Ft. McMurray make $150,000 a year....because no one wants to live in that crap hole. Who wants to be a Doctor and lance boils, freeze-off warts, write prescriptions for snotty babys, dole out birth-control and do pap-smears all day? No friggin thanks. There are trade-offs in every career.
What I'm saying is, if it's all about money, and nothing else...get out while you can, cuz you're in the wrong career.
DP.
Re: Air Canada Pool
I think the reason the process is different for Jazz pilots has to do with two things, first the sharing of the training file, any cognitive issues would have come up already and would be transparent in those records.
Second, they needed half the Jazz pilots to sign onto this, I don't think that would've happened if they told us we had to go through the entire process. I think and this is only conjecture, the process currently in place for Jazz pilots is only so they can still weed out some, without having to say why. ie; didn't interview well, not a good fit is all they need to say
Thank goodness I don't have to go through the psych eval, I hate flowers!
Second, they needed half the Jazz pilots to sign onto this, I don't think that would've happened if they told us we had to go through the entire process. I think and this is only conjecture, the process currently in place for Jazz pilots is only so they can still weed out some, without having to say why. ie; didn't interview well, not a good fit is all they need to say
Thank goodness I don't have to go through the psych eval, I hate flowers!
Re: Air Canada Pool
.
Last edited by arcadia on Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Air Canada Pool
Its signed.
The TA hasnt changed one single bit. They are leaving the PML list open a little longer to see who else they are can shake out of the tree. But the conditions of list have been met ie 625 names. They got about 300 captains and lots of senior guys according to my CP. Even more will take the straight cash from the ERP. The more the merrier the company said.
The TA hasnt changed one single bit. They are leaving the PML list open a little longer to see who else they are can shake out of the tree. But the conditions of list have been met ie 625 names. They got about 300 captains and lots of senior guys according to my CP. Even more will take the straight cash from the ERP. The more the merrier the company said.
Re: Air Canada Pool
Once on the list, can the individual opt out at any point? I mean, other than totally blowing the interview.AllClutch wrote:Its signed.
The TA hasnt changed one single bit. They are leaving the PML list open a little longer to see who else they are can shake out of the tree. But the conditions of list have been met ie 625 names. They got about 300 captains and lots of senior guys according to my CP. Even more will take the straight cash from the ERP. The more the merrier the company said.
Is there any jeopardy??? What if everyone opts out? A theoretical possibility.
DP.
-
- Rank 2
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:09 pm
Re: Air Canada Pool
Well may as well close this thread down...
Poolies are officially fucked. Thanks.
Poolies are officially fucked. Thanks.
Re: Air Canada Pool
If you opt out you immediately go to the B scale.
Which if your on the classic caps you at 7 year pay.
Like was menmentioned before there is a big stick to go with the carrot.
Which if your on the classic caps you at 7 year pay.
Like was menmentioned before there is a big stick to go with the carrot.
-
- Rank 7
- Posts: 596
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:27 am
Re: Air Canada Pool
Does that go for pilots who can't flow through because of a failed interview as well?AllClutch wrote:If you opt out you immediately go to the B scale.
Which if your on the classic caps you at 7 year pay.
Like was menmentioned before there is a big stick to go with the carrot.
-
- Rank 4
- Posts: 248
- Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:12 am
- Location: Down in Butlertown
Re: Air Canada Pool
Failed interview = back to Jazz at pre interview status and pay rate
-
- Rank 2
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:21 pm
Re: Air Canada Pool
For those in the pool, there might be a ray of hope. There have been calls going out already to the Jazz guys on the PML for an interview for a March 9th start date. How is this good news you ask. Be patient, I'm getting there. One of our guys that was contacted was asked if he was interested in starting as soon as possible, or 'deferring'. She had no details of the reservation system for him except to say there was one in the works. He asked if there were any financial or seniority penalties to which she had no answer.
Now here comes the possible good news. If they will be running a course on March 9th, it may include more poolies than non-poolies. My theory is that without any concrete info on the reservation system, coupled with the fact that most of the top guys on the list will be declining the interview or taking the interview and declining the job offer, they might have a really hard time filling this course with 80% Jazz folks. Please don't try and track me down and lynch me if this theory doesn't come to fruition. It is possible there would be ramifications to not filling the class with 80% Jazzers since there is a signed contract in place now. And we all know that seniority is everything so that fight is a plausible one. But anything is possible, so keep those fingers crossed.
Now here comes the possible good news. If they will be running a course on March 9th, it may include more poolies than non-poolies. My theory is that without any concrete info on the reservation system, coupled with the fact that most of the top guys on the list will be declining the interview or taking the interview and declining the job offer, they might have a really hard time filling this course with 80% Jazz folks. Please don't try and track me down and lynch me if this theory doesn't come to fruition. It is possible there would be ramifications to not filling the class with 80% Jazzers since there is a signed contract in place now. And we all know that seniority is everything so that fight is a plausible one. But anything is possible, so keep those fingers crossed.
Re: Air Canada Pool
Just checking out the latest bid. Looks like vacancies for 15 poolies and 60 Jazzers.
Good luck!
DP.
Good luck!
DP.
Re: Air Canada Pool
countryhick.....
So, what if they're offered the job anyway, even if they try to botch the interview? What status and pay are they protected under? AC is covering their butt somehow with this....I know it's not going to be as simple as turning down the job after the interview. I could be wrong, but I know Calin isn't that shortsighted.
DP.
So, what if they're offered the job anyway, even if they try to botch the interview? What status and pay are they protected under? AC is covering their butt somehow with this....I know it's not going to be as simple as turning down the job after the interview. I could be wrong, but I know Calin isn't that shortsighted.
DP.
Last edited by dukepoint on Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Rank Moderator
- Posts: 5621
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:47 pm
- Location: Straight outta Dundarave...
Re: Air Canada Pool
loopa wrote:You're absolutely right.AllClutch wrote:They are saving on the CPA cost. Which is huge. But that is all the savings that I see from where I'm sitting as well.
Ive heard it rumored that they will be putting the cog test out to pasture for the OTS as well if it makes feel any better loopa.
Once again, I agree that this probably doesnt fit your strict defination of fair lots of really good pilots will probably not acheive their career goals because of this. Lots of these pilots planned their lives around getting to AC since they were children and tailored their careers to get to that point. It suck for them. But do you agree that the MBAs at AC and Jazz that make this decision probably dont give a shit? They dont even care tjat much about the pilots that currently work for them. Why should they care about the guy at NCA. They are not the fair police.
The psych/cog eval has no bearing on how I feel to be honest. I just feel for the people that are in the process of signing their cards on AC home land and are really getting screwed.
I wonder how attractive aviation looks to the outside now... Will we have as many people come in to this sector knowing what they have to go through to get to the dream jobs? It used to be that you spent 1-2 years outside of your first job as a 250 hour pilot and you were employed by AC back in 1970's ... Now we are looking at a very long wait time. While no body is entitled to anything, a new comer to this industry is almost better off going into something different... ATC... Dispatching... Etc, the career incentives are quite a bit more attractive in those industries for someone just starting out not having completed their solo's yet.
For people that are able to hold a spot at the regionals today, I'd say they are still in an OK spot today to "make it." It's the ones coming behind us that will really see the hit me thinks.
Thoughts?
Timing - it's everything.
Did the kids born in the early 20s deserve the depression and WW2? Boomers deserve the boom from '45 to the oil shock?
If you want a guarantee of a steady job, then go and be an obstetrician, barber or undertaker. Anything else, you roll the dice - flying doubly so...
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
-
- Rank 2
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:21 pm
Re: Air Canada Pool
[quote="dukepoint"]countryhick.....
So, what if they're offered the job anyway, even if they try to botch the interview? What status and pay are they protected under? AC is covering their butt somehow with this....I know it's not going to be as simple as turning down the job after the interview. I could be wrong, but I know Calin isn't that shortsighted.
DP.[/quote]
If you are offered a position, you have 3 options. 1) Take the job. 2) Decline the job and take the FIP (top-up pay) and leave both Jazz and AC, 3) Decline the job and return to Jazz at the New Hire Payscale. Some of the guys close to retirement will be choosing option 2). And some of the 20 YOS guys who are not on the Dash Classic will select option 3). I suspect 90% of the top 100-150 names on the PML have no intention of going to AC.
So, what if they're offered the job anyway, even if they try to botch the interview? What status and pay are they protected under? AC is covering their butt somehow with this....I know it's not going to be as simple as turning down the job after the interview. I could be wrong, but I know Calin isn't that shortsighted.
DP.[/quote]
If you are offered a position, you have 3 options. 1) Take the job. 2) Decline the job and take the FIP (top-up pay) and leave both Jazz and AC, 3) Decline the job and return to Jazz at the New Hire Payscale. Some of the guys close to retirement will be choosing option 2). And some of the 20 YOS guys who are not on the Dash Classic will select option 3). I suspect 90% of the top 100-150 names on the PML have no intention of going to AC.
-
- Rank 5
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:26 am
Re: Air Canada Pool
Email came from Air Canada to the pool today.
It confirmed that through the capacity purchase agreement preference for hiring would be in place for companies under the air canada express banner (Jazz, Georgian, Sky, Evas) and that the majority of new hires over the next few years would come from Jazz.
Furthermore, it was suggested to candidates not employed by one of the above companies that we could either stay in the pool or apply to one of the above companies...
Very confusing information, from my point of view it looks like those of us not employed by ac express are being pfo'd about two years too late in a very confusing unclear way. Anyone else getting that impression???
It confirmed that through the capacity purchase agreement preference for hiring would be in place for companies under the air canada express banner (Jazz, Georgian, Sky, Evas) and that the majority of new hires over the next few years would come from Jazz.
Furthermore, it was suggested to candidates not employed by one of the above companies that we could either stay in the pool or apply to one of the above companies...
Very confusing information, from my point of view it looks like those of us not employed by ac express are being pfo'd about two years too late in a very confusing unclear way. Anyone else getting that impression???
-
- Rank 4
- Posts: 248
- Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:12 am
- Location: Down in Butlertown
Re: Air Canada Pool
DP,
If a Jazz pilot turns down a job offer, there are two options.
Return to Jazz under the new pay scale (which is a pretty big pay hit for a "classic" driver), or take a severance package and move on.
Keep in mind the aim of the exercise is to lower Jazz payroll and reduce AC's CPA cost. For every pilot that is removed (due to flow to AC or severance) AC gets a corresponding reduction in the CPA rate.
If a Jazz pilot turns down a job offer, there are two options.
Return to Jazz under the new pay scale (which is a pretty big pay hit for a "classic" driver), or take a severance package and move on.
Keep in mind the aim of the exercise is to lower Jazz payroll and reduce AC's CPA cost. For every pilot that is removed (due to flow to AC or severance) AC gets a corresponding reduction in the CPA rate.
Re: Air Canada Pool
[/quote]
If you are offered a position, you have 3 options. 1) Take the job. 2) Decline the job and take the FIP (top-up pay) and leave both Jazz and AC, 3) Decline the job and return to Jazz at the New Hire Payscale. Some of the guys close to retirement will be choosing option 2). And some of the 20 YOS guys who are not on the Dash Classic will select option 3). I suspect 90% of the top 100-150 names on the PML have no intention of going to AC.[/quote]
I don't mean to ask a stupid question,but why would a 20 YOS pilot decline an offer and return to Jazz to make less money?
If you are offered a position, you have 3 options. 1) Take the job. 2) Decline the job and take the FIP (top-up pay) and leave both Jazz and AC, 3) Decline the job and return to Jazz at the New Hire Payscale. Some of the guys close to retirement will be choosing option 2). And some of the 20 YOS guys who are not on the Dash Classic will select option 3). I suspect 90% of the top 100-150 names on the PML have no intention of going to AC.[/quote]
I don't mean to ask a stupid question,but why would a 20 YOS pilot decline an offer and return to Jazz to make less money?
-
- Rank 7
- Posts: 564
- Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:00 pm
- Location: YYZ
Re: Air Canada Pool
Lifestyle? Maybe going to the bottom of the seniority list at a new company and potentially being on stand by for years is not worth the money.Splash wrote: I don't mean to ask a stupid question,but why would a 20 YOS pilot decline an offer and return to Jazz to make less money?
-
- Rank 4
- Posts: 295
- Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:10 am
- Location: A Smokn' Hole
Re: Air Canada Pool
I agree. The email was not clear. I mean what happens if you do go to one of mentioned carriers, do you have to leave the pool ? Would you not be better off then staying in the pool ?
But the tone of that email was pretty much, Please @#$! Off. However - thanks for your interest!
But the tone of that email was pretty much, Please @#$! Off. However - thanks for your interest!
Re: Air Canada Pool
Groundpilot...as far as I'm aware, they're still taking candidates from the pool. I've heard a minimum of fifteen will be pulled within the next 4+- months. More to follow. They're saying bid 15-02 which happens in April will be small, however 15-03 in June is suppose to show considerably more vacancies, thus more coming from the pool, but time will tell.
At this point you roll the dice going to a Connector, but as logic would dictate, if you get pulled from the pool, and they find you've been employed by an AC affiliate in the mean time, they could make you wait your turn. Bit of a crap shoot. I'd wait for clarification from HR. I'm sure someone would be happy to answer that question. It might take a little time though, as the dust hasn't settled yet around this whole issue. Good luck.
DP.
At this point you roll the dice going to a Connector, but as logic would dictate, if you get pulled from the pool, and they find you've been employed by an AC affiliate in the mean time, they could make you wait your turn. Bit of a crap shoot. I'd wait for clarification from HR. I'm sure someone would be happy to answer that question. It might take a little time though, as the dust hasn't settled yet around this whole issue. Good luck.
DP.
Re: Air Canada Pool
Yeah! Take a huge paycut and career step backwards to make 25k -ish as an FO on a 1900, where do I sign up? Oh right.. sure to be lots of competition to get on at Big Red and it's affiliates now. Would working the ramp loading AC planes qualify as well? This poster hopes so!Slappy the Squirrel wrote:Email came from Air Canada to the pool today.
It confirmed that through the capacity purchase agreement preference for hiring would be in place for companies under the air canada express banner (Jazz, Georgian, Sky, Evas) and that the majority of new hires over the next few years would come from Jazz.
Furthermore, it was suggested to candidates not employed by one of the above companies that we could either stay in the pool or apply to one of the above companies...
Very confusing information, from my point of view it looks like those of us not employed by ac express are being pfo'd about two years too late in a very confusing unclear way. Anyone else getting that impression???
