flyer 1492 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:39 am
The last contract extension (expires in 2035!) is a failure of both ALPA MEC and the company. The company wanted "cheap" labor costs and ALPA wanted to show that they were looking out for the pilots that wanted to flow over to Big Red. Time to get rid of the two tier pay scale and the pathetic yearly pay raises. If you want professional pilots then it is time to open the contract.
There are no longer 2 pay tables. Only 1 pay table going forward in MOS 6. This was changed with the GGN deal.
4.5% yearly raise (average) could be better, it only reverts to 2% annually when you reach the top of the pay scale at 18 years.
The contract is "cost neutral" until 2035. Unless the company wants to address cost based bargaining early, we cannot "force it". The 2035 deal was voted YES by over 77% of the pilot group.
flyer 1492 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:39 am
The last contract extension (expires in 2035!) is a failure of both ALPA MEC and the company. The company wanted "cheap" labor costs and ALPA wanted to show that they were looking out for the pilots that wanted to flow over to Big Red. Time to get rid of the two tier pay scale and the pathetic yearly pay raises. If you want professional pilots then it is time to open the contract.
There are no longer 2 pay tables. Only 1 pay table going forward in MOS 6. This was changed with the GGN deal.
4.5% yearly raise (average) could be better, it only reverts to 2% annually when you reach the top of the pay scale at 18 years.
The contract is "cost neutral" until 2035. Unless the company wants to address cost based bargaining early, we cannot "force it". The 2035 deal was voted YES by over 77% of the pilot group.
The GGN consolidation was part of MOS 4.
MOS 5 was a normal contract renewal.
MOS 6 was created in tandem with the SKV LOU.
The current CBA is #5. Take a look in the Appendix section. There are 2 pay tables.
flyer 1492 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:39 am
The last contract extension (expires in 2035!) is a failure of both ALPA MEC and the company. The company wanted "cheap" labor costs and ALPA wanted to show that they were looking out for the pilots that wanted to flow over to Big Red. Time to get rid of the two tier pay scale and the pathetic yearly pay raises. If you want professional pilots then it is time to open the contract.
yeah no, the "flow" was to get it passed, all it did was secure the jobs of the top half of the seniority list that were not going to AC. If there was no "flow" to AC, and no pay improvements, no way it would have passed.
flyingcanuck wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:35 am
yeah no, the "flow" was to get it passed, all it did was secure the jobs of the top half of the seniority list that were not going to AC. If there was no "flow" to AC, and no pay improvements, no way it would have passed.
It wasn’t pay improvements. There have been no real pay improvements since Contract 2010.
It was for job security. CPA extension provided job security for those remaining at Jazz. Flow agreement provided job security for those who had longer term careers and felt this need was better addressed by working for mainline.
The idea that there are two pay scales at Jazz is false. There was until 2019, the pre 2015 pilots topped out at I think year 17? And after they went to year 20 or something.
There is no one who's a year 3 or 4 FO from the "old scale" so really, there's only one FO scale. Anyone hired before 2015 and still and FO would a year 8-9 FO or higher and those pay rates are the same as anyone hired now who eventually hits that pay step. And now there is also only one CA scale. It's not perfect, and there's lots of things the Jazz folks need to fix especially with the pension but there is no longer two pay scales in any capacity.
If AC doesn't honour the 60% flow, Jazz is going to have a hard time filling seats once pilots realize that this agreement can just be ignored and they have no actual firm guarantee of an interview and/or job.
negative_g wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:21 am
The idea that there are two pay scales at Jazz is false. There was until 2019, the pre 2015 pilots topped out at I think year 17? And after they went to year 20 or something.
There is no one who's a year 3 or 4 FO from the "old scale" so really, there's only one FO scale. Anyone hired before 2015 and still and FO would a year 8-9 FO or higher and those pay rates are the same as anyone hired now who eventually hits that pay step. And now there is also only one CA scale. It's not perfect, and there's lots of things the Jazz folks need to fix especially with the pension but there is no longer two pay scales in any capacity.
If AC doesn't honour the 60% flow, Jazz is going to have a hard time filling seats once pilots realize that this agreement can just be ignored and they have no actual firm guarantee of an interview and/or job.
You can twist this any way you like (which is what a lot of the sales pitch was) but simply put - a new hire Jazz pilot will make less total income years 1-6+ than their predecessors. That was, by the way, by design.
Until that is rectified, there is a de facto b scale for Jazz pilots hired after 2015.
flyer 1492 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:39 am
The last contract extension (expires in 2035!) is a failure of both ALPA MEC and the company. The company wanted "cheap" labor costs and ALPA wanted to show that they were looking out for the pilots that wanted to flow over to Big Red. Time to get rid of the two tier pay scale and the pathetic yearly pay raises. If you want professional pilots then it is time to open the contract.
There are no longer 2 pay tables. Only 1 pay table going forward in MOS 6. This was changed with the GGN deal.
4.5% yearly raise (average) could be better, it only reverts to 2% annually when you reach the top of the pay scale at 18 years.
The contract is "cost neutral" until 2035. Unless the company wants to address cost based bargaining early, we cannot "force it". The 2035 deal was voted YES by over 77% of the pilot group.
The GGN consolidation was part of MOS 4.
MOS 5 was a normal contract renewal.
MOS 6 was created in tandem with the SKV LOU.
The current CBA is #5. Take a look in the Appendix section. There are 2 pay tables.
Yes the next updated CBA # will show only 1 pay table as it was blended with GGN consolidation. Now everyone should be getting past that blend (table 1 & 2 join at year 6) and pilots hired today are on 1 pay table.
I’m still amazed people are applying to jazz and ground schools seem to be getting filled. It has the lowest regional pay, unless I stand to be corrected: Lower than porter, encore, and PAL. My recommendation to anyone who has started is to do your time and leave as soon as possible either to AC or any other company. It’s basically 2 companies: Senior pilots before a certain date get C2 passes, DH in business class, and a separate pay scale. While new hires and more junior pilots are C4, economy DH and a terrible pay scale.
I've been hearing only 10 to 12 people are showing up for 20 person ground schools so ya I would be nervous if I was jazz. They're already short on pilots and there must be more people leaving then coming in.
pitottubey wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 6:46 am
I've been hearing only 10 to 12 people are showing up for 20 person ground schools so ya I would be nervous if I was jazz. They're already short on pilots and there must be more people leaving then coming in.
ellinas wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:24 am
Is it going to get to a desperate situation for them or are there enough 750-1000 hour guys applying.
750-1000 hour pilots are typically 12-24 months removed from getting their ATPL. And in many cases, that same time frame removed from having the operational experience necessary to pass the upgrade training.
What Jazz needs is 2000-3000+ hour pilots with ATPL applying. And not just circuit hours. Real life flying experience, which contributes to judgement and execution skills.
Problem is that this pilot demographic is in very high demand for most operators. Lots of opportunities. Lots of competing offers.
The CA spots become FO spots if no one wants DEC. So all 19 took FO position
So is Jazz going to have an issue with staffing their planes? With Porter offering better pay and atmosphere will some of the Jazz guys move?
Is it going to get to a desperate situation for them or are there enough 750-1000 hour guys applying.
Desperate for captains eventually, not FOs
My friend is a jazz FO and he gets calls from scheduling every day practically begging him to work overtime on all his days off. There will not ever be a shortage of people qualified and willing to be hired by Jazz to be FOs, but they might be short on, and maybe will continue to be short on, currently trained and experienced FOs.
pitottubey wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:00 am
My friend is a jazz FO and he gets calls from scheduling every day practically begging him to work overtime on all his days off. There will not ever be a shortage of people qualified and willing to be hired by Jazz to be FOs, but they might be short on, and maybe will continue to be short on, currently trained and experienced FOs.
Your friend experience is not representative of the whole pilot group. It depends a lot on the base and type. Lots of guys and gals on sitting reserve not being called.
