PUSH PUSH, IN THE BUSH

[DanWEC]

Yes, it is the client call or the company call, if they wanted us to try, we didn't mind going, worst scenario is we would come back or land elsewhere and wait.

I disagree strongly with literally that entire statement. It's the pilot's call. If you don't feel that it is, go to a different company. And, no, by the tragic fact that this thread exists, that certainly is not the worst case scenario. Yes, we all know it happens and might have done it when we didn't know better, and call me an idealist, but but there is so, so much wrong with this mentality. (Sorry, not trying to call you out individually timel.)

In my last job I said no to my gov't client when appropriate. No issue. Was told by a higher-up that if dispatch or ops ever gave me grief for it to let them him know. That's a great culture.
The operator I'm with now won't push weather in the slightest. As such we have no related accident record, and our clients choose us based on that fact.

Besides the obvious escape routes, My thought process has always been: If I find myself contemplating "I think I can make it" I need to stand up, take a deep breath, and think about that the fact that I just didn't give myself a 100% chance of success, and what that could mean.

I'm not speculating on this accident. For all we know his fan stopped or he had a structural failure. I'm just commenting on the above statement.
RIP Nick, my condolences to the friends and family.

[crazyaviator]

Code: Select all

Official VFR you could fly in 2 SM OVC001 in uncontrolled airspace https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... e-3669.htm 

correct ! As far as I recall, you can be at treetop up to a CZ, then IF you need to do a circuit you need 500 feet above ground minimum ( SVFR) otherwise, straight in final on the deck is ok SVFR ?

[Illya Kuryakin]

Yes, it is the client call or the company call, if they wanted us to try, we didn't mind going, worst scenario is we would come back or land elsewhere and wait.

I disagree strongly with literally that entire statement. It's the pilot's call. If you don't feel that it is, go to a different company. And, no, by the tragic fact that this thread exists, that certainly is not the worst case scenario. Yes, we all know it happens and might have done it when we didn't know better, and call me an idealist, but but there is so, so much wrong with this mentality. (Sorry, not trying to call you out individually timel.)

In my last job I said no to my gov't client when appropriate. No issue. Was told by a higher-up that if dispatch or ops ever gave me grief for it to let them him know. That's a great culture.
The operator I'm with now won't push weather in the slightest. As such we have no related accident record, and our clients choose us based on that fact.

Besides the obvious escape routes, My thought process has always been: If I find myself contemplating "I think I can make it" I need to stand up, take a deep breath, and think about that the fact that I just didn't give myself a 100% chance of success, and what that could mean.

I'm not speculating on this accident. For all we know his fan stopped or he had a structural failure. I'm just commenting on the above statement.
RIP Nick, my condolences to the friends and family.

Well Dan, if I tell the customer he has a 50/50 chance of getting in, that certainly IS MY call. There's a BIG difference between sitting in the sunshine, doing an approach, missing, and going home, and struggling to maintain VFR at 300 feet for 150 miles?
If he wants to take the chance that we'll see something, I have ZERO issues with that
You and I have vastly different experience levels. I'm not pushed, or pressured in any way. Missed approaches are good for the soul.
But I would never try to maintain VFR at 300 feet.....ever.
Illya

[timel]

Yes, it is the client call or the company call, if they wanted us to try, we didn't mind going, worst scenario is we would come back or land elsewhere and wait.

I disagree strongly with literally that entire statement. It's the pilot's call. If you don't feel that it is, go to a different company. And, no, by the tragic fact that this thread exists, that certainly is not the worst case scenario. Yes, we all know it happens and might have done it when we didn't know better, and call me an idealist, but but there is so, so much wrong with this mentality. (Sorry, not trying to call you out individually timel.)

I was commenting on Awitzke and the clients wanting to take the risk of missing.

I agree, the decision to go is purely the pilot call, especially on safety, I was making that statement purely on wx minimums, the client is in a rush and there are uncertain chances to see the runway, so we might come back or go to the alternate.

I would ask the client and/or the company if they really wanted to make an attempt or wait ... report the next day. It was a way for us not to be held 'responsible' by the boss if the client refused to pay for the ride, because we didn't make it at destinatin.

For those specific flights, it has always been 50/50, few times we got lucky and it was less worst then planned, other times the pax did a plane ride from A to A and they paid.

Sometimes things don't go as planned and company doesn't do profit or lose money, but unfortunately it is also the game.

[DanWEC]

Fair enough, I was commenting regarding VFR ops and decisions as it applies here, not IFR. Different criteria I agree.
Cheers.

[Redneck_pilot86]

Code: Select all

Official VFR you could fly in 2 SM OVC001 in uncontrolled airspace https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... e-3669.htm 

correct ! As far as I recall, you can be at treetop up to a CZ, then IF you need to do a circuit you need 500 feet above ground minimum ( SVFR) otherwise, straight in final on the deck is ok SVFR ?

You're both wrong, at least for commercial ops.

Except when conducting a take-off or landing, no person shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight

(a) at night, at less than 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle located within a horizontal distance of three miles from the route to be flown; or

(b) where the aircraft is an aeroplane, during the day, at less than 300 feet AGL or at a horizontal distance of less than 300 feet from any obstacle.

You cannot legally fly below 300 AGL in an airplane.

[crazyaviator]

You CAN legally fly below 300 ft AGL if you satisfy the 602.14/15 exceptions. The take 5 graph IMPLIES that your good to go to the ground in uncontrolled BUT CARS 602 says 500 feet minimum except for the exceptions ???

[crazyaviator]

In the AIM SVFR shows 1 mile vis and clear of cloud, so an instructor and student could take off, fly around at 100 ft agl, then come back into the control zone under SVFR and still be 100 feet Abv gnd !!

[digits_]

The take 5 graph IMPLIES that your good to go to the ground in uncontrolled BUT CARS 602 says 500 feet minimum except for the exceptions ???

500 ft from structures etc, not from the ground. So privately you can fly 1 ft AGL in uncontrolled airspace as long as you stay 500 ft away from any person, vessel, vehicle or structure. That can be a horizontal distance, doesn't have to be vertical.

[C-gwxv]

What altitude are Marjority of the birds flying at...(maybe not in this season:0)

Legal vs safe

Why do we need to fly that low, other than landing, take off or special flight operations?

[awitzke]

Yes, it is the client call or the company call, if they wanted us to try, we didn't mind going, worst scenario is we would come back or land elsewhere and wait.

I disagree strongly with literally that entire statement. It's the pilot's call. If you don't feel that it is, go to a different company. And, no, by the tragic fact that this thread exists, that certainly is not the worst case scenario. Yes, we all know it happens and might have done it when we didn't know better, and call me an idealist, but but there is so, so much wrong with this mentality. (Sorry, not trying to call you out individually timel.)

The situation I was referring to was a day where the weather is marginal, maybe fluctuation and you don't really know what it will be like when you get there but a good chance of getting in. Also was referring to IFR.

Often when flying clients, we discuss they options with them. Many times for example Red Lake may be showing 500' 2SM for example. Many of the airports we go to have no AWOS or ATIS, so the conversation goes like this. "The weather here is OK, and were going 50NM away and if we go by the trend there should be a good chance we get in. However in the case we don't we will have to go to "XXXX" airport as that is our alternate. Are you OK with the risk of possibly going missed and going to the alternate?" YES/NO. It's not a discussion of "The weather is far below minimums but we can try." I don't do that nor plan to.

[awitzke]

Yes, it is the client call or the company call, if they wanted us to try, we didn't mind going, worst scenario is we would come back or land elsewhere and wait.

I disagree strongly with literally that entire statement. It's the pilot's call. If you don't feel that it is, go to a different company. And, no, by the tragic fact that this thread exists, that certainly is not the worst case scenario. Yes, we all know it happens and might have done it when we didn't know better, and call me an idealist, but but there is so, so much wrong with this mentality. (Sorry, not trying to call you out individually timel.)

I was commenting on Awitzke and the clients wanting to take the risk of missing.

I agree, the decision to go is purely the pilot call, especially on safety, I was making that statement purely on wx minimums, the client is in a rush and there are uncertain chances to see the runway, so we might come back or go to the alternate.

I would ask the client and/or the company if they really wanted to make an attempt or wait ... report the next day. It was a way for us not to be held 'responsible' by the boss if the client refused to pay for the ride, because we didn't make it at destinatin.

For those specific flights, it has always been 50/50, few times we got lucky and it was less worst then planned, other times the pax did a plane ride from A to A and they paid.

Sometimes things don't go as planned and company doesn't do profit or lose money, but unfortunately it is also the game.

Exactly.

[Redneck_pilot86]

You CAN legally fly below 300 ft AGL if you satisfy the 602.14/15 exceptions. The take 5 graph IMPLIES that your good to go to the ground in uncontrolled BUT CARS 602 says 500 feet minimum except for the exceptions ???

The CARs are the law. Anything else is reference only. While 602.14/15 does not expressly forbid low level vfr when not over a person, vessel, vehicle or structure, it is the 700 series CARs that govern commercial ops. As this thread is about people being pushed to fly in shit weather, CAR 703.27(b) applies. It does specify aeroplane, so I suppose a helicopter can fly below 300 agl, but it is simply illegal for a commercial airplane to do so.

[anofly]

Well since there is not very often anyone out there measuring with a tape , how high you are, specially in uncontrolled airspace, it sort of leaves it up to you. (no loud yelling about the regs etc) Regs or no Regs its up to you to decide if you go, keep going, turn around, land short, land somewhere else, climb on top, climb then file, file then climb, stay put and play cards, stay put and drink etc.
But regardless of the "regs"
.. running if you are gonna do it Needs consideration of ::

Lower ceilings require ,in general , very good vis
Somewhat higher ceilings Can have somewhat lower vis. A mile is very little vis , at 120 knots
You need some outs, 180 turn ability, many diversion places, ability to climb and turn it to ifr, and the ability to fly it on instruments.better yet a lowish cloud top so you can climb on top and a reasonable alternate if you find it degrades underneath the cloud to below ifr mins. And where is it, this good weather? and the the charts etc to get there , fuel too, and reserves.

Few or no other challenges, ie snow, icing, thunderstorms , rain, fog, smoke, sandstorms ,icing etc, darkness , dew point spread,
Flat terrain ,or over water along a shore , with no tall boats, even better
Few obstacles , towers, hills, wires, restricted airspace etc
Knowledge of other traffic
Knowledge of local landmarks and area
A gps programmed for the flight, with moving map, and terrain , database up to date, and good knowledge of how to run it, in fact expert at the one installed best, it's no time to be figuring out the gps. Database up to date?
Someone weather knowledgeable to answer your radio or tell you if the destination tanks. Or improves.
NOTams checked for new towers etc...
A copilot to navigate while you look forward and steer
A map marked with your route identifying all towers, hills, wires, etc
Fly at reduced speed
Leave your lights on
Lots of fuel
Well rested
All your correct glasses, etc
Reliable airplane, ifr gyros working etc, pitot heat, etc
Radio tuned to possible traffic, make your calls,

Still up for it?
Call a respected fellow local pro aviator and ask him or her if you should go.
Consider when the weather is going to improve,, it may not be long...

[flyingswine77]

Please Reference the following Transport Document for low flying guidance.

Decision Tree2.pdf

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