2 Air Transat pilots charged with being impaired

[porcsord]

And nope, I believe that people with that enzym should avoid alcohol at all costs and seek help if they need it. Chemical addiction is very serious.

*ambiguous: they should be pilots, but like the rest of us should be punished to the full extent of the law for flying under the influence.

[AuxBatOn]

So for those of us who carry this enzyme which we have no control over, are we just weak willed mentally challenged individuals who are inferior and should not be pilots?

If it is such a problem that you cannot perform your duty without your disease/dependance having an impact on your performance, then no, you should not be allowed to be a pilot. To the same level that someone with other medical conditions, affecting the operation of the aircraft, cannot be a pilot.

[CpnCrunch]

Current research shows that Native Americans aren't any more likely to be biologically susceptible to alcoholism than anyone else:

http://www.theverge.com/2015/10/2/94286 ... -americans

(see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_a ... _Americans for references). The problems Native Americans have with alcoholism are thought to be related to social factors rather than genetics.

Some people are genetically predisposed to be alcoholics, but not because they're Native.

[Cat Driver]

Beyond any doubt anyone who makes the decision to fly while still impaired to any extent by alcohol or any other drug should be removed from the flying industry.

Conversely anyone who can recognise their addiction and cure the addiction by whatever means works for them can continue to fly for a living if they never drink again.

After I was treated by Shick Shadel I gave Transport Canada my treatment records from Schick Shadel and told them if I ever started drinking again they were to permanently cancel my pilots license.

That was in January of 1985, I went on to fly for a living until I retired in 2005 because I wanted to retire, not because I had to. To this day I have never even considered taking another drink because I do not wish to start that downward spiral ever again.

I am relating my personal story because maybe someone else will read it and decide they also can change their behaviour.

I am sure most here know that my real name is . . and Cat Driver is just my Avcanada handle.

[crazyaviator]

After I was treated by Shick Shadel I gave Transport Canada my treatment records from Schick Shadel and told them if I ever started drinking again they were to permanently cancel my pilots license.

That was in January of 1985, I went on to fly for a living until I retired in 2005 because I wanted to retire, not because I had to. To this day I have never even considered taking another drink because I do not wish to start that downward spiral ever again.

If i had a choice to sit down with a beer and talk shop to the above poster or with Captain Picard of the dead-stick airbus, I would pick . any day of the week. One is a hero, the other isn't. Can you guess which ?

[SheriffPatGarrett]

Oh, well, in the old days, alcoholism was a kind of blessing for us permanently on the wagon...You see,
all airlines' management was run by a mafia of alkys, covering for each others since WW II.

Since the assholes were always passed out in a sort of coma, they left us at peace making a living, flying the damn airplanes.
And if the cappie was passed out in the left seat...well, that was when he was not ragging your ass...drunk or on hangover.

[CID]

When I started in aviation, pilots who drank a lot, and sometimes flew impaired were commonplace. I knew (know) many (yes....MANY) pilots who couldn't retain a driver's license because of DUI issues.

I know pilots who were pass-out drunk who only hours later were heading out the hotel to work. Work of course meant flying an aluminum tube full of innocent human beings in a high performance aircraft with a huge workload.

Nobody (including myself) said a damn thing because it was almost obligatory back then. Visiting the local airport bar in the evenings was basically exposing yourself to debauchery that would made a sailor blush.

With the advent and evolution of various programs and procedures like CRM and safety culture initiatives, that era is largely over. The overabundance of people with smart-phone cameras has helped too. Someone is always watching!

I've been told by one pilot in particular that those old days were the best. He romanticizes over the whole dare-devil angle that pilots seem to prescribe to. As if every "mission" (like flying YVR to YYZ in a 737) was a perilous undertaking that he may never return from so it's time to live it up!

We all know better now and even though there seems to be a bit of a transgression here, overall it's safer to fly these days and pilots are much more responsible about drinking and "driving" and drinking and "flying".

Beyond any doubt anyone who makes the decision to fly while still impaired to any extent by alcohol or any other drug should be removed from the flying industry.

I think that's a little harsh Cat Driver. You seem to have forgiven yourself for your addiction. Although you haven't stated that you flew impaired, my guess is that you've done other unsavory "stuff" that you wouldn't have done sober. We all make mistakes and sometimes pay with our lives or our health. I think a second chance should be considered for anyone who makes a mistake. You are not "owed" a second chance or "entitled" to one but certainly some people deserve one. Those "second chance" people are often better people than those "never caught" types.

If there was no empathy for people who make serous mistakes, what's the sense of releasing people from prison?

[pelmet]

Beyond any doubt anyone who makes the decision to fly while still impaired to any extent by alcohol or any other drug should be removed from the flying industry.

I think that's a little harsh Cat Driver. You seem to have forgiven yourself for your addiction. Although you haven't stated that you flew impaired, my guess is that you've done other unsavory "stuff" that you wouldn't have done sober. We all make mistakes and sometimes pay with our lives or our health.

Someone really shouldn't make due to a complaint from CID, edited from saying strong hints to "guesses" that "unsavoury things were done" when we don't really know this. Instead, maybe we can get the final truth from Cat himself. Like so many others did in the past, did you ever fly in the old "go go" days where you wouldn't have passed a modern day breathalyzer. Or were basically very sick from a hangover?

[CID]

"Strong hints"???

I did no such thing pelmet. I stated that "my guess" he did. That is a very open ended inquiry, not a strong hint of anything. Now of course I made no suggestion or "strong hint" that Cat Driver had a "mental weakness" but you did. How do you feel now?

So yes, you have a mental weakness that you were able to overcome by physical adjustment of the chemicals in your brain.

[Cat Driver]

I should have written this a bit different.

Code: Select all

Beyond any doubt anyone who makes the decision to fly while still impaired to any extent by alcohol or any other drug should be removed from the flying industry.

And added until they can demonstrate they no longer are a risk to fly impaired.

. ..

[pelmet]

Why the change? I think you are right in what you originally said and agree with you 100%.

On a further note....

Two Air Transat pilots from the GTA have been granted bail in a Glasgow court after being arrested last week for allegedly trying to fly a jet while under the influence of alcohol.

Captain Jean-Francois Perreault, 39, and first officer Imran Zafar Syed, 37, both of the Toronto area, were ordered to surrender their passports before they were set free at Paisley Sheriff Court on Tuesday, the Scottish Sun and Glasgow Live reported.

The men were arrested on July 18 at Glasgow Airport shortly before their flight to Toronto with a reported 250 passengers was due to take off.

The flight was delayed almost 24 hours.

Perreault and Syed had been held in custody for a week after a brief first court appearance July 19.

They are charged with performing an aviation function while over the legal alcohol limit, and threatening and abusive behaviour.

They have been suspended by the Montreal-based airline.

Air Transat president Jean-Francois Lemay said last week that the carrier will compensate the passengers “pursuant to the applicable European regulations.”'

The United Kingdom's Railway and Transport Safety Act bars people from conducting aviation functions “when the proportion of alcohol in (their) breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit.”

Canadian aviation regulations ban aircraft crew members from working while intoxicated or within eight hours of consuming alcohol.

The grounded jet’s passengers included celebrity decorators Colin McAllister and Justin Ryan, whose programs include “Cabin Pressure.”

Glasgow Live reported that Perreault and Syed were believed to have left via the back door of the court in a vehicle with blacked-out windows about 90 minutes after their court appearance

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/air ... spartandhp

[B208]

"Strong hints"???

I did no such thing pelmet. I stated that "my guess" he did. That is a very open ended inquiry, not a strong hint of anything. Now of course I made no suggestion or "strong hint" that Cat Driver had a "mental weakness" but you did. How do you feel now?

So yes, you have a mental weakness that you were able to overcome by physical adjustment of the chemicals in your brain.

Dude, guessing that someone did something is saying that you think they did something. You essentially stated that you think Cat has done unsavoury things. That's fine. You're allowed to hold and express any opinion that you want. However if you try and weasel out of it when someone calls you on it then you should not expect to be accorded much in the way of respect. You seem better suited to the legal profession than the aviation industry.

If there was no empathy for people who make serous mistakes, what's the sense of releasing people from prison?

Compassion and empathy for criminals needs to be tempered by compassion and empathy for their potential future victims.

[PilotDAR]

I'm wholly with . on this, our industry has no place for pilots who cannot/will not keep wide separation beween alcohol and flying.

I have made a personal choice to never drink, based on some very poor examples set for me in my youth. It was the right thing for me, and remains so to this day in ways I would never have expected. I worked in the airline industry in Canada in the '80's and personally witnessed a Captain being replaced immediately before a Transatlantic departure for suspicion of being intoxicated. Very memorable, and reinforced my choice fo myself.

[CID]

Spare me your ridiculous scolding B208. I respect Cat Driver's decision to seek help for his problem and I stand by my "guess" based on his comments.

had an addiction to alcohol that was ruining my life...

I have not had a single alcohol drink since 1985 and was able to finish my flying career which I probably would not have been able to do had I not quit drinking.

I do not wish to start that downward spiral ever again.

It was in the spirit of carrying on the discussion so that others may learn from his example. If he was perfectly content, a perfect member of society and an all round good guy to be around when he was drinking, why would he have pursued treatment???

People aren't alcoholics because they drink a lot. They're alcoholics when drinking consistently gets in the way of their happiness, your freedom, their health and their relationships. Pick one or more of those and you may have a problem with drinking.

[B208]

Spare ....... with drinking.

CID, how about you just spare us the burden of your presence? You are a complete nerf-herder.

[pelmet]

Spare ....... with drinking.

CID, how about you just spare us the burden of your presence? You are a complete nerf-herder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSwyNN7ms00

[squash junky]

Is it known what the actual BAC was?

[Prodriver]

I am going to assume that they were probably pounding back the Guinness in a great Scottish Pub, that stout stuff makes me Puke! I like a nice light Lager.

[co-joe]

I am going to assume that they were probably pounding back the Guinness in a great Scottish Pub, that stout stuff makes me Puke! I like a nice light Lager.

If you are looking for a way to take the edge off the Guiness, and in the process increase your blood alcohol level, add a shot of Jack Daniels. It's a serious improvement.

Totally not helpful to the discussion at hand or to showing up to work sober mind you.

[B208]

I am going to assume that they were probably pounding back the Guinness in a great Scottish Pub, that stout stuff makes me Puke! I like a nice light Lager.

If you are looking for a way to take the edge off the Guiness, and in the process increase your blood alcohol level, add a shot of Jack Daniels. It's a serious improvement.

Totally not helpful to the discussion at hand or to showing up to work sober mind you.

If I may suggest; Skip the Guiness and just add some ice to the Jack.......

[CID]

Spare ....... with drinking.

CID, how about you just spare us the burden of your presence? You are a complete nerf-herder.

Maybe. But it's better than being a stalking trolling know-nothing.

Spend more time forming your own opinions than trolling mine. You'll avoid embarrassment and there will be a lot less bullshit on this forum.

[Meatservo]

Would you guys quit bickering for fucks sake? I was trying to read this thread to see what was happening to these two former pilots in Scotland- not wade through a bunch of snipes and silly insults.

[B208]

Spare ....... with drinking.

CID, how about you just spare us the burden of your presence? You are a complete nerf-herder.

Maybe. But it's better than being a stalking.......

.....only in your wettest dreams would you have a stalker......

[pelmet]

Here is one for the excuse-makers of why you were drunk and heading toward the aircraft to fly it. "oh....it wasn't my fault and here is why....". I wonder if this previous case will be examined closely this new case.

Cleared: The pilot who claimed he got drunk in his sleep
by JAMES TOZER
Last updated at 22:31 21 March 2007

An airline pilot who turned up for duty on a transatlantic flight nearly six-and-a-half times the alcohol limit was cleared - after claiming he had been drinking in his sleep.
James Yates, 47, had been on a six-hour drinking session the evening before and was stopped at an airport security point looking dishevelled and unsteady on his feet, it was claimed.
But a jury acquitted the first officer of attempting to board the cockpit of the American Airlines Boeing 767 which had been due to take 181 passengers from Manchester to Chicago.
During the case, Yates, an American, had suggested he may have drunk a third of a bottle of whisky in his sleep after going to bed.
He denied he had been trying to get on the plane, insisting his intention was to find the captain and explain that he was not in a fit state to fly.
A jury in Manchester accepted his claims, although he is expected to lose his job following the incident which is an embarrassment to one of the world's biggest airlines.
Yates, from Ohio, had begun drinking at about 4.30pm the day before the flight to Chicago on February 11 last year, returning to his hotel room at 11.20pm.
The next thing he remembered, he told the court, was the plane's captain, Harvey Bell, hammering on his door at 9am - an hour-and-a-half before the plane was due to take off.
After putting on his uniform, Yates took a taxi to the airport, arriving late at a checkpoint where he was unable to find his security pass.
Minshull Street Crown Court heard how the pilot - who smelt "strongly of alcohol" and had a "very red face" - emptied his case to try to find it.
He made no attempt to say he was not planning to join the air crew, his trial was told. At that point, police were called, and Yates gave a breath sample which showed he had almost eight times the legal level of alcohol.
He later gave a blood reading at a police station which showed he had 129mg of alcohol in 100ml of blood, almost six-and-a-half times the legal limit for flying.
Yates was relieved of his duties, delaying the flight by an hour and causing it to be diverted to New York to pick up a replacement. At his three-day trial, he denied he had been intending to board the plane.
He told the jury: "I was drunk. I realised I wasn't going to work. I assumed I had lost my job. I figured the best thing to do was to tell Harvey."
Attempting to explain why a bottle of whisky he had bought the day before was now two-thirds full, he said the drink had disappeared overnight, adding that "strange things" sometimes happened in his sleep.
Yates, a former fighter pilot who once helped enforce no-fly zones in Iraq, slapped colleagues on the back and grinned with delight as the jury acquitted him, but did not comment afterwards.
American Airlines released a statement welcoming the jury's decision while emphasising its "strict" policies on alcohol abuse.
The statement went on: "We are pleased that the full details of the case have now been heard and that, armed with these facts, the jury have found James Yates was not guilty of the charges brought.
"He continues to be on leave of absence from the company and upon his return from that leave the company will discuss with him his continued employment.
"These are private discussions and we will not comment further on the outcome.
"Our primary concern has and always will be for the safety of our passengers and crews."
Airline insiders said it was difficult to conceive how Yates could retain his job.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z4GFXqimaN
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[Cat Driver]

The subject of whether or not I flew airplanes impaired during the period my drinking was an addiction the answer is of course I did, there were times when I was impaired because I had a " hang over" which is impaired.

Fortunately I managed to get help and was able to quit drinking completely because I realized I had a very serious problem that was getting worse as time passed.

. E.