WeedPro2000 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:12 pm
I guess I should have been more clear. The WPDL will exist at WJ mainline for another couple of months, after which it will be superseded by a true DOH seniority list in the first ALPA CBA, and in which every pilot will be ordered by their date of hire at WJ mainline. That’s how it works at ALPA.
Cheers
Your right. Post CBA, WestJet will have a seperate DOH list. Encore the same after their CBA. HOWEVER there will be a LOU to tie the two in the same way the WPDL does via a master list. This was stated today by the MEC during one of the pilot conference calls.
The only caveat to the LOU....the company has to agree.
WeedPro2000 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:12 pm
I guess I should have been more clear. The WPDL will exist at WJ mainline for another couple of months, after which it will be superseded by a true DOH seniority list in the first ALPA CBA, and in which every pilot will be ordered by their date of hire at WJ mainline. That’s how it works at ALPA.
Cheers
Not true, ALPA does not dictate what's in the WS CBA, they are there to support and advise. WS MEC could do their seniority by shoe size and ALPA could not stop them.
Woah woah, quit letting facts get in the way of a good story!
Not true. 30 Encore pilots got cut off at the knees on this one. The last 3 classes all got superceded by Swoop.
Ok let’s break this down in detail just for the sake of clarity. The WPDL is in fact intact. I did say that Swoop pilots were going to the bottom of the list. For all intents and purposes this is true. They will be within 50 numbers of the bottom of a 2000 name list...but yes not rock bottom. Why not Rock bottom? Because they were hired in the first week of April and the last 3 Encore courses were April 16, May 14 and May 28. So yes the Swoopsters are actually senior to a few pilots here that were actually hired after them. That’s how seniority works. So how exactly did those last 30 Encore pilots get “cut off at the knees”? I’m pretty sure we agree on how we feel about the Swoopsters but let’s be accurate here. Those last 30 Encorians did not get screwed by anybody.
Because most of those 30 guys had the credentials to be hired by Swoop but choose to take the front door into WJ, with knowledge of a single list. The swoop people were hired with the knowledge at the time they would never flow to WJ. They got a huge gift from ALPA, and as such their start date should be the day that decision was made, not the day they snuck in the back door.
WestJet won't tolerate bypass pay for long. Any uplift in wages post CBA only magnifies the cost to keep the original 26. With both ALPA and WestJet in agreement, those 26 will be displaced via a bid post CBA. I doubt they'll be around for long as FOs and certainly will not be around when those Encore pilots are upgraded at mainline.
Ok let’s break this down in detail just for the sake of clarity. The WPDL is in fact intact. I did say that Swoop pilots were going to the bottom of the list. For all intents and purposes this is true. They will be within 50 numbers of the bottom of a 2000 name list...but yes not rock bottom. Why not Rock bottom? Because they were hired in the first week of April and the last 3 Encore courses were April 16, May 14 and May 28. So yes the Swoopsters are actually senior to a few pilots here that were actually hired after them. That’s how seniority works. So how exactly did those last 30 Encore pilots get “cut off at the knees”? I’m pretty sure we agree on how we feel about the Swoopsters but let’s be accurate here. Those last 30 Encorians did not get screwed by anybody.
Because most of those 30 guys had the credentials to be hired by Swoop but choose to take the front door into WJ, with knowledge of a single list. The swoop people were hired with the knowledge at the time they would never flow to WJ. They got a huge gift from ALPA, and as such their start date should be the day that decision was made, not the day they snuck in the back door.
Apparently you’re confused about who exactly made the call to put the Swoopsters where on the list. I’ll give you a hint, it wasn’t ALPA and it rhymes with arbitrator. Your frustration is misguided and misplaced.
I'm not confused in the slightest. I didn't say ALPA made that call. I'm implying that the Swoopstes got a good deal as the result of ALPA's fight. A very good deal, a deal that happens to undercut some of the people ALPA represent. I don't blame that on ALPA, that's just the way it happened, and hopefully the arbitrator changes it...
I guess my point is Swoopstes were hired with the expectation of not having access to flow, Encorians were hired with expectation of flow.
So the Swoopstes date of hire should be the date they were granted access to the flow.
If you take something that is not yours, and you are caught, then that item is taken from you and given back to the rightful owner.
Bypass pay accomplishes this for the stolen Captain positions,
Now what about the stolen senoirity?
Swoopstes are still gaining the one list (a big benefit) if they are put to the very back, where as 30 Encore pilots lose senoirity they taught they had if they are not.
I have attached the latest ALPA update (11 June 2018), in which many questions were answered. No question was posed or answered regarding the ordering of the WJ seniority list, nor was any question asked regarding the the status of the combined WJ/WJE WPDL in the upcoming WJ CBA. You can read into that how you like.
Q5: With regards to Swoop flying, what have we achieved so far?
A5: Swoop, as envisioned by WestJet, was a significant long-term threat to WestJet pilots' careers. The Kaplan interim award, along with the arbitration framework we agreed to when faced with the choice of a full strike or lockout, has allowed us to capture the Swoop flying now and for as long as Swoop exists. By having a single seniority list, a single bargaining unit, and single collective agreement, our jobs are no longer threatened by the existence of this alter ego airline. Now, through the mediation-arbitration process, we have the right and responsibility to make the jobs at both WestJet and Swoop as good as they can be. And that is what we intend to do.
analysis: WestJet and Swoop pilots now have a single seniority list. Encore pilots will have their own seniority list. By WestJet and Swoop pilots having a single bargaining unit and a single collective bargaining agreement, their jobs (WestJet and Swoop pilots) will no longer be threatened by the Encore airline. The WJ MEC clearly has carried out its mandate and represented only WJ pilots (and now Swoop pilots) throughout the bargaining process. They did not negotiate anything with regards to Encore pilots, except possibly to restrict their activites via a scope provision.
Q15: Do the current Swoop pilots come before or after Encore pilots in seniority?
A15: In the arbitrator's interim award, Swoop pilots were given seniority based on their date of hire, which places them behind all but roughly 30 Encore pilots who have been hired since the first Swoop pilots were hired.
analysis: It is unlikely the arbitrator went against the already (for the most part, according to ALPA) negotiated seniority provision in the upcoming CBA. Therefore, we can assume with some certainty that the WJ seniority list will be DOH, like every other non-merger seniority list at ALPA represented companies. Additionally, ALPA Executive Board policy, which the MEC is bound to follow by the ALPA Constitution, mandates a DOH seniority list (absent mergers).
Additionally, Question 15 above, as phrased, is somewhat vague. It refers to "Encore" pilots. It does not refer to "former Encore pilots who have now flowed over to WJ". If the question posed had been answered, the respnse might be this: Swoop pilots are ahead of all Encore pilots on the current yet soon to be abandoned WPDL. Each Swoop pilot will have a higher position on the WJ seniority list than every Encore pilot who has flowed or will flow after the date the Swoop pilot was hired at Swoop.
It is clear more than ever that the WJ seniority list will ordered by DOH at WJ, without regard for previous employment at Encore. There was enough information out there to understand why, and yours truly certainly went above and beyond to illustrate this. The Organizing Committee told everyone that whether the WPDL was kept or not in the first CBA was entirely up to WJ pilots. As I'm not a member of ALPA, I can't say what were the questions posed by the surveys issued by ALPA. Regardless, no survey results were released by ALPA, giving them convenient cover from difficult questions that will be posed in the coming months.
I do hope many are starting to question the value of ALPA on property. One can hope that the ALPA experiment will end in 24 months from the date of the first CBA.
Okay Jungs, I'm off to spend the day being awesome! Whatever you guys and gals do, don't be boring!
The bypass positions have been awarded and the newly announced Captain positions at Swoop have been filled internally. New FO vacancies will be filled by Encore.
Lots of talented people to keep you company Tbaylx. The original OTS pilots who undercut us will be outnumbered by the fall. Your island is shrinking. Enjoy “life by the numbers” or so the saying goes. Seniority will keep the original OTS guys wedged into a hole. I give it six months before they become the biggest cry babies in the company.
It's time to go on another salt march. Encore guys just got an email to bid on the remaining swoop positions as well as WJ ground schools.
How about you start working with your colleagues instead of trying to sabotage the rest of us.
Awesome news... this is all playing out the way it should be along with all the positions now being filled internally from westjet.
I don't get it... where's the win, it's still substandard wages and conditions like management wants, is it just because alpa will represent? So there's the possibility of better many years from now? Yes I know it's still under negotiations, but does anyone believe it won't remain a b-scale?
sstaurus wrote: ↑Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:09 pm
I don't get it... where's the win, it's still substandard wages and conditions like management wants, is it just because alpa will represent? So there's the possibility of better many years from now? Yes I know it's still under negotiations, but does anyone believe it won't remain a b-scale?
It seems that WestJet pilots had a mandate to strike but instead they made this deal so they must consider it a "win".
Strange that some are still so sour and antagonizing. To be fair, not sure if they are from WestJet, but perhaps some misplaced anger?!
I can assure you it’s not considered a win. This is damage control. Remember we had an agreement that clearly stated westjet flying done by westjet pilots. Totally ignored by management. Then we get job postings going public to OTS. Another non agreed to and a union circumventing action plan. Now fast forward and we picked up some pilots who say “hey we applied for jobs you didn’t want” not true. But we couldn’t bid. Again not a win. Fast forward now. We have finished the bid and are paying bypass pay? A win? No. But a mitigation tactic from Kaplan. He wasn’t gonna let the company not launch swoop on time. No way. So lets have the 26 do it he says. However there is now two big catches with that. One is bypass pay. Two is the fact that September will see the very likely scenario of the current 26 being placed in the right seat at swoop while senior pilots to them fill their roles. A win? No just more damage control. What people fail to realize that this was a agreed to contract article westjet pilots doing westjet flying. Then circumvents a union and thinks it’s all is fine. Even if this does get written the 26 are not gonna lose their jobs, but they will end up in the right seat. A win? No again. They shouldn’t have been put in that place in the first place. This is a massive mess now caused by wj and now not only are 2000 pilots affected.. everyone is.
Be careful about throwing rocks at (us) westjet pilots. History doesn’t need to look far to remember how rouge was formed. We are at the mercy of Kaplan and the government. It’s not a win. I’m as frustrated as anyone how this happened. Alpa has to make a decision and they did. That’s why we elected them. I believe in what their doing. Westjet in September is going to learn they are not above the labour laws of Canada.
This is a total f’ng mess now and we are holding the bag. Not a win.
If we get forced a sub standard contract from Kaplan what exactly will the air canada staff be looking to do in there next negotiations?
It’s a total mess. And no one is wining. Sad thing is no one can guarantee anything. Not us not swoop pilots not one can.
Guess we need to all bbq all summer and wait and see what September brings as it’s clear westjet doesn’t want to negotiate anytime soon.
It didn't make any sense to fire the Swoop pilots. Not from a company perspective or ethically from a pilot perspective. It wasn't the right thing to do. I'll drink a 26er for you.
It's a goddamn mess alright. Company takes the most efficient pilot group in North America and turns against them. An arbitrated contract will reward its members just enough to keep other labour groups from following suit (ie not that much). I think the company (BOD & executives) got lucky here by skirting the lockout/strike action yet it doesn't appear that they have changed their tone since averting complete disaster. Going forward, I imagine they'll keep treating pilots in the same petulant manner. We won't witness a sea change of difference until CBA #2 which will be hammered out during an actual strike. That's my armchair prediction at this point.
jjj wrote: ↑Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:50 am
The bypass positions have been awarded and the newly announced Captain positions at Swoop have been filled internally. New FO vacancies will be filled by Encore.
Lots of talented people to keep you company Tbaylx. The original OTS pilots who undercut us will be outnumbered by the fall. Your island is shrinking. Enjoy “life by the numbers” or so the saying goes. Seniority will keep the original OTS guys wedged into a hole. I give it six months before they become the biggest cry babies in the company.
Fly safely everyone.
Happy to hear that we'll be getting some experienced guys as new captains. We can use the help and it will make the training and the upgrades much easier if we have guys that know the operation and the 737. I can't speak for everyone but I'm personally not fussed where I sit on the whole seniority ladder, especially since we don't really bid on anything currently and likely when we do it will be some form of socialized bidding.
I don't see much point in being negative and crying about work, you either like/accept it or you fix it or you move on. Whinging endlessly won't get you far.
jjj wrote: ↑Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:50 am
The bypass positions have been awarded and the newly announced Captain positions at Swoop have been filled internally. New FO vacancies will be filled by Encore.
Lots of talented people to keep you company Tbaylx. The original OTS pilots who undercut us will be outnumbered by the fall. Your island is shrinking. Enjoy “life by the numbers” or so the saying goes. Seniority will keep the original OTS guys wedged into a hole. I give it six months before they become the biggest cry babies in the company.
Fly safely everyone.
Still at it jjj? I doubt that they will surpass some of you as the biggest cry babies and whiners. Your company is a mess, you have been screwed over by you management and union and yet you continue on.
Still haven't looked in that mirror as to where some of the blame may lie, yet have you?
tbaylx wrote: ↑Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:43 am
Happy to hear that we'll be getting some experienced guys as new captains. We can use the help and it will make the training and the upgrades much easier if we have guys that know the operation and the 737. I can't speak for everyone but I'm personally not fussed where I sit on the whole seniority ladder, especially since we don't really bid on anything currently and likely when we do it will be some form of socialized bidding.
I don't see much point in being negative and crying about work, you either like/accept it or you fix it or you move on. Whinging endlessly won't get you far.
So I have some questions then....
If it doesn’t matter will it in September? Are you certain you will get to keep your left seat? If so why did the arbitrator add the option to do otherwise in the decision. Your seniority could land you right seat swoop or right seat encore. Maybe it could land you left seat swoop if no one bids it. Don’t you agree?
What was the answer at your ceo meeting last weekend when the question of position security was raised? What did the ceo tell you? Did he guarantee it? No of course he didn’t. He can’t.
Will you be complaining or whining if you get sent to the right seat? Or crying as you suggest? Will you file a grievance to Alpa about it?
You again are speaking like you are in a position of authority or one of which you feel you are untouchable and locked in your seat. Do you deny the fact you could be sent to right seat? I’ll accept the fact that if Kaplan says you stay in your seat you stay in your seat. I won’t bitch or cry. I’ll accept it. Again if Kaplan was certain of you keeping the position why didn’t he do it in the order? Because he needs time to figure out what to do with you guys.
I’ve moved past personal hatred towards you guys because like you said the positions became available to ots and you took them. I blame all parties in this mess. We literally have done a big circle and ended up here.
If you can hold the seat with your seniority then I’ll welcome it with open arms.
tbaylx wrote: ↑Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:43 am
Happy to hear that we'll be getting some experienced guys as new captains. We can use the help and it will make the training and the upgrades much easier if we have guys that know the operation and the 737.
Hahahaha.....you are getting FO's that have never held a 705 capt seat as initial upgrades at Swoop.
Good luck, especially with a certain one who was awarded YHM CA.
tbaylx wrote: ↑Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:43 am
Happy to hear that we'll be getting some experienced guys as new captains. We can use the help and it will make the training and the upgrades much easier if we have guys that know the operation and the 737.
Hahahaha.....you are getting FO's that have never held a 705 capt seat as initial upgrades at Swoop.
Good luck, especially with a certain one who was awarded YHM CA.
This "certain one" you speak of will have to make it through the WJ upgrade. Our upgrade process will "weed out all non-hackers, who do not pack the gear to serve in my beloved Corps".
WJ trainers are the best - this "certain one" won't find the forth bar waiting for him/her at the gate.
*edit* I'm assuming WJ training department will do the swoop upgrades now - given the common employer status. However, I'm not 100% sure...
tbaylx wrote: ↑Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:43 am
Happy to hear that we'll be getting some experienced guys as new captains. We can use the help and it will make the training and the upgrades much easier if we have guys that know the operation and the 737. I can't speak for everyone but I'm personally not fussed where I sit on the whole seniority ladder, especially since we don't really bid on anything currently and likely when we do it will be some form of socialized bidding.
I don't see much point in being negative and crying about work, you either like/accept it or you fix it or you move on. Whinging endlessly won't get you far.
So I have some questions then....
If it doesn’t matter will it in September? Are you certain you will get to keep your left seat? If so why did the arbitrator add the option to do otherwise in the decision. Your seniority could land you right seat swoop or right seat encore. Maybe it could land you left seat swoop if no one bids it. Don’t you agree?
What was the answer at your ceo meeting last weekend when the question of position security was raised? What did the ceo tell you? Did he guarantee it? No of course he didn’t. He can’t.
Will you be complaining or whining if you get sent to the right seat? Or crying as you suggest? Will you file a grievance to Alpa about it?
You again are speaking like you are in a position of authority or one of which you feel you are untouchable and locked in your seat. Do you deny the fact you could be sent to right seat? I’ll accept the fact that if Kaplan says you stay in your seat you stay in your seat. I won’t bitch or cry. I’ll accept it. Again if Kaplan was certain of you keeping the position why didn’t he do it in the order? Because he needs time to figure out what to do with you guys.
I’ve moved past personal hatred towards you guys because like you said the positions became available to ots and you took them. I blame all parties in this mess. We literally have done a big circle and ended up here.
If you can hold the seat with your seniority then I’ll welcome it with open arms.
Don’t you agree with that ? Goes both ways?
I am absolutely not certain that i'll keep the position come September, and no one can guarantee that, certainly not our CEO, nor has he. Since we chose not to certify ourselves early on we now find ourselves represented by ALPA and on the seniority list. I'm pretty sure that I couldn't grieve it and even if I could I'm not very confident in "our" MEC representing my interests given everything I've seen here on this forum and elsewhere.
It's going to be up to the arbitrator how that plays out so I'll not worry too much about it and see what comes in the fall. I personally don't think it's likely that he will reverse his current position, but it's certainly quite possible. If I find myself in the right seat then I'll have a look at the terms and conditions that come with the position and make my decision on what I'll do then. In the meantime I'm not losing any sleep over it and am going to enjoy working with an exciting new startup and deal with the challenges that come with that.
Just a heads up, you may want to tell your guys on your internal forum who aren't over it that flipping the bird to a Swoop pilot as he taxis by may not be the best career move. You never know who might be operating that aircraft, it could be a chief pilot, DFO or other upper management who may not take kindly to that sort of thing. Be pissed off if you want but try and keep it professional. No one wants to see someone lose a job or get made an example of. Same thing for personal social media accounts.
tbaylx wrote: ↑Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:43 am
Happy to hear that we'll be getting some experienced guys as new captains. We can use the help and it will make the training and the upgrades much easier if we have guys that know the operation and the 737.
Hahahaha.....you are getting FO's that have never held a 705 capt seat as initial upgrades at Swoop.
Good luck, especially with a certain one who was awarded YHM CA.
This "certain one" you speak of will have to make it through the WJ upgrade. Our upgrade process will "weed out all non-hackers, who do not pack the gear to serve in my beloved Corps".
WJ trainers are the best - this "certain one" won't find the forth bar waiting for him/her at the gate.
*edit* I'm assuming WJ training department will do the swoop upgrades now - given the common employer status. However, I'm not 100% sure...
We're all aware of the extra scrutiny on the airline as a start up and given the background noise. Transport Canada has been doing all the PPC's to date. Anyone who passed met the PPC standard. Anyone not capable of being in the left seat after passing a PPC will be weeded out during line indoc, same as they would be at mainline or any other 705 operator.
---------- ADS -----------
Last edited by tbaylx on Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
