Should have asked for the option...

[boogs82]

Yes, you're right. I definitely didn't focus on the whole section. Thanks for pointing that out.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

There was also no elevated risk of collision.

[PAJ]

Like someone else said I would hazard a guess that having to deal with the flight check put whoever was working in a bad mood and that likely caused them to sound like they were upset at you.

In the context of this conversation, what is a "flight check"? Sorry to ask if its obvious and I missed it.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Like someone else said I would hazard a guess that having to deal with the flight check put whoever was working in a bad mood and that likely caused them to sound like they were upset at you.

In the context of this conversation, what is a "flight check"? Sorry to ask if its obvious and I missed it.

NAV Canada showed up that day for a surprise flight check of the ILS instrumentation in an executive jet (never got the exact type) and a flight plan that took the better part of an entire circuit to communicate. I recall them cancelling IFR at least twice on the same flight.

[photofly]

CRJ-200. This one, prolly: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CGNVC

You could read about it on the NavCanada blog, but that’s down and throwing a Wordpress error page

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

CRJ-200. This one, prolly: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CGNVC

You could read about it on the NavCanada blog, but that’s down and throwing a Wordpress error page

Yep - this flight, specifically.

[photofly]

Oh yes! If you zoom in close enough, look, there you are, too!

[PAJ]

NAV Canada showed up that day for a surprise flight check of the ILS instrumentation in an executive jet (never got the exact type) and a flight plan that took the better part of an entire circuit to communicate. I recall them cancelling IFR at least twice on the same flight.

Thanks ... all makes sense now.

[ATC_Anstey]

Like someone else said I would hazard a guess that having to deal with the flight check put whoever was working in a bad mood and that likely caused them to sound like they were upset at you.

In the context of this conversation, what is a "flight check"? Sorry to ask if its obvious and I missed it.

Others have gotten the main point across, but they're one of the most annoying things to deal with when you're busy. Sometimes they're IFR, sometimes they're not, but really they need to do a particular flight path that often involves flying on final and then breaking it off within a mile of the threshold to just past the threshold either right or left, and doing stuff further out as well. Sometimes it's to the reciprocal end of the active runway which almost shuts the airport down completely until it's done. We can delay them if we absolutely need to, but usually it's a situation where they need to do something that gets in the way of a lot of airplanes and you clear the way.

I can imagine it might be even worse at YTZ than what I have to deal with as they have an ILS to both ends of their main runway and I would assume they can't break theirs off to the north side because of the CN tower.

I remember watching one on a very busy wind calm day at my tower. The controller had a flight check with less than 10 minutes notice, and a surprise opposite direction VFR 737. It was a bit of a scramble, I believe he used every single runway we had(each end of 2 runways for 4 total) for both an arrival and a departure within 30 minutes.

[PAJ]

Thanks for the broader explanation ATC_Anstey. Curious why these flight checks come with little notice or as a surprise. Who/what are they checking that precludes advance notice? Sorry for the thread drift.

[ATC_Anstey]

Thanks for the broader explanation ATC_Anstey. Curious why these flight checks come with little notice or as a surprise. Who/what are they checking that precludes advance notice? Sorry for the thread drift.

They often do come with notice, but sometimes plans can change that result in something different happening last minute. As the controller and not the technician or pilot on board that aircraft I can't really answer why their plans might change last minute. The only thing I can think of is because they do 3 or 4 airports in a single flight if something comes up where they end up at 1 airport longer than expected they may be delayed to other airports, or change the order to make it more efficient after the delay. Perhaps even having to land somewhere they weren't planning on initially because the delay changed their fuel calculations. In the event I was referring to I believe we had notice that a flight check was happening later but didn't have an idea on the time, and IIRC Centre may have handed them off later than usual. Other times we might be aware but that info slips through the cracks in a relief brief or is forgotten by the time it happens so despite knowing it's coming it still comes as a surprise in the moment. If you have enough time to take a broader look at the radar, or time to enter squawk codes to see how far away a fast moving inbound is you might be able to avoid that surprise. I like to do that when I can for that reason, but sometimes you're just so busy you don't have time, which unfortunately is the worst time to be surprised.

They're checking the ILS to make sure the localizer and glide path are within an acceptable error. They've got to do that either every 6 months or every year, I'm not entirely sure. In fact doing so usually requires advanced notice as they always have a technician on site at the airport and the ILS turned off to do the flight check. I think they may have to check the RNAV approaches every so often as well. So there are usually enough signs that it's coming, but if when you sit down you don't know the time it's coming and you get so busy you forget about it in the moment and then it happens at the worst possible time it's not fun.

I got to go on board the aircraft once when it came here. They've got a bunch of people, and a lot of equipment on board. It's actually pretty cool, but I can imagine that with all that stuff going on while it's happening that there's a lot of coordination going on back there and it's understandable from our end that sometimes they've got to change their plan to make it all work.

I can't speak for whether TZ was caught off guard with the flight check on that day in particular or not. There's a decent chance they weren't, as we usually do know it's coming, but even knowing about it it's still annoying to deal with when you're busy.

[PAJ]

Thanks ATC_Anstey. Appreciate your time to answer in such detail.

Back to whether RedAndWhiteBaron did anything wrong. I say absolutely not. There, thread back on track. LOL

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Well... I did it again.

Different scenario. This time it was a mock flight test, and my "examiner" asked me to demonstrate a short field landing. He/she was expecting me to announce simulated braking, whereas I fully braked, to demonstrate my "superior skill".

This was a very very bad day for ATC. It was the Victoria Day Monday, and it was a spectacular day to fly - we could see from Lake Ontario to Georgian Bay, at just 3500'. It was very busy airspace. Add to that, a medevac blew a tire on the runway - so ATC was... stressed, for lack of a better term.

The evaluation itself was great, aside from the minor detail that my "examiner" thought I would simulate the braking, whereas I fully demonstrated it, so he/she never thought to ask for the option. I was not going to stop on the runway, but I was braking hard enough, and ATC was alert enough, to come on the horn asking "CGABC, are you having a problem?" To which I answered "No, just practicing a short field landing". To which they replied (I paraphrase) "Get off the runway! Now!"

To ATC, it sure would have appeared that we had an issue. Now although I wasn't going to stop on the runway and I did not need to ask permission for this, this was very busy airspace, exacerbated by an earlier blown tire. I did not stop and think of who might have been behind me, and I fault myself for that. I should have known better. It was certainly not a violation, but it certainly was a faux pas.

So in the interest of owning my mistakes, and in the hope that the hard working consummate professionals at YTZ on May 24th read this - sorry about that. I should have known better.

[photofly]

Were you cleared for a touch and go, a stop and go, or a full stop landing?

[rookiepilot]

Learning experience, and in time thinking about the traffic behind you, as well as in front of you, becomes automatic.
The important thing to learn, don't allow your mistakes to intimidate you, and turn you into a blanket passive follower of ATC.
They are very rarely wrong, but not never. Later, think before accepting a clearance, cause your instructor won't always be there.

[digits_]

Anyone else confused as to why an instructor would expect "simulated" braking during an exercise? Especially during a pre flight test ride?

[pelmet]

Didn’t want to read through the whole thread and perhaps I did before already. But, bottom line is, you used your emergency authority as PIC to change the touch and go to a full stop. At the same time, you used that authority to not advise ATC as controlling the aircraft was a much higher priority.

I suppose after the aircraft is safely down, one could make some sort of retroactive declaration.

[Conflicting Traffic]

He/she was expecting me to announce simulated braking

Anyone else confused as to why an instructor would expect "simulated" braking during an exercise? Especially during a pre flight test ride?

I'm more confused about an instructor expecting simulated braking but the student not knowing. Was it briefed, either in the pre-flight briefing or in the setup for the approach/landing? Or did the instructor just assume? I would expect actual braking unless briefed otherwise.

[rookiepilot]

Anyone else confused as to why an instructor would expect "simulated" braking during an exercise? Especially during a pre flight test ride?

ATC doesn't want stop and goes on the runway? Why not use 24 / 06, then you own the place. Do you guys switch to that runway for training, PF?

[photofly]

At CYTZ runway 06/24 is covered in parked Q400's and NOTAMed closed - it has been for more than a year, I think. There is no restriction on or reluctance to grant clearance for a stop-and-go on runway 08/26, on the part of ATC, traffic permitting, of course.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Were you cleared for a touch and go, a stop and go, or a full stop landing?

Full stop.

I'm more confused about an instructor expecting simulated braking but the student not knowing. Was it briefed, either in the pre-flight briefing or in the setup for the approach/landing? Or did the instructor just assume? I would expect actual braking unless briefed otherwise.

Nope, not briefed. An assumption was made on both sides.

I'm not worried about this, it's just that I believe in owning and discussing my mistakes.

[rookiepilot]

Were you cleared for a touch and go, a stop and go, or a full stop landing?

Full stop.

I'm more confused about an instructor expecting simulated braking but the student not knowing. Was it briefed, either in the pre-flight briefing or in the setup for the approach/landing? Or did the instructor just assume? I would expect actual braking unless briefed otherwise.

Nope, not briefed. An assumption was made on both sides.

I'm not worried about this, it's just that I believe in owning and discussing my mistakes.

Well, that sure makes you the minority on this site, where too many slime covered trolls lie in wait to hit you over the head for your mistakes that they would NEVER make. Cause they never, ever made a pilot error.

A room full of frustrated . Yeager wannabes's live here, you know.

[digits_]

I wouldn't call braking on a full stop landing a mistake...

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I wouldn't call braking on a full stop landing a mistake...

No, neither would I. It's more that it was an extremely busy day, a holiday Monday with air so clear you could see from Lake Ontaro to Georgian Bay from just 3500' - so you can imagine how busy it was. Add to that, an earlier runway closure. Add to that, the medevac traffic out of that airport is still off the charts. So without asking ATC, the assumption from their end is that pilots will land, and get off the runway. I made it appear that I was going to stop on the runway.

[CpnCrunch]

Flight test guide says:

"apply brakes, without excessive lockup or skidding and stop safely in the shortest distance"

No mention of "simulated braking". You probably should have notified ATC that you would be stopping on the runway, but that's mostly your instructor's fault IMO. Your job is to demonstrate the short-field landing.