RCAF looking overseas to fill pilot shortage

[Me262]

So again how is the Air Force reserve not an option in Canada? We already have the Army reserve which is very successful from what I've heard there are almost more reservists than reg force in the Army. Our neighbours to the south can have you flying your airline job of a 737 during the week and a F22 during the weekend doing training ex. As reservists you still require mil training and swearing allegiance to the crown, wouldn't it fill that gap that reg force pilots have left? Then again I doubt the CF is very forward thinking or would even entertain the thought of this. Stories from military friends explain how it takes almost a year for simple paperwork to move through the DoD for approval. I couldn't imagine something like this ever taking fruition under 5 maybe 10+ years.

DND. DOD is the US version.

And Outlaw and careerpilot answered your question.

[Chuck Yagermeister]

So again how is the Air Force reserve not an option in Canada? We already have the Army reserve which is very successful from what I've heard there are almost more reservists than reg force in the Army. Our neighbours to the south can have you flying your airline job of a 737 during the week and a F22 during the weekend doing training ex. As reservists you still require mil training and swearing allegiance to the crown, wouldn't it fill that gap that reg force pilots have left? Then again I doubt the CF is very forward thinking or would even entertain the thought of this. Stories from military friends explain how it takes almost a year for simple paperwork to move through the DoD for approval. I couldn't imagine something like this ever taking fruition under 5 maybe 10+ years.

Shortage of pilots in the RCAF isn’t a function of recruiting; the number of applicants still vastly outpaces the RCAF’s ability to intake and train them. This is one of the reasons the RCAF can be so selective.

This means even if we did open reserves to off the street hires, we couldn’t train them. The few available training slots need to go to the full timers who are already waiting years for their courses.

For ex regular force pilots who are already trained, the reserves are open and are an option. We have quite a few reservist pilots but they are all ex regular force (or sometimes transfers from other militaries).

That would make the most sense. Alas my dream as a civi doing a canyon run in a herc or C17 has been crushed again.

[careerpilot?]

So again how is the Air Force reserve not an option in Canada? We already have the Army reserve which is very successful from what I've heard there are almost more reservists than reg force in the Army. Our neighbours to the south can have you flying your airline job of a 737 during the week and a F22 during the weekend doing training ex. As reservists you still require mil training and swearing allegiance to the crown, wouldn't it fill that gap that reg force pilots have left? Then again I doubt the CF is very forward thinking or would even entertain the thought of this. Stories from military friends explain how it takes almost a year for simple paperwork to move through the DoD for approval. I couldn't imagine something like this ever taking fruition under 5 maybe 10+ years.

Shortage of pilots in the RCAF isn’t a function of recruiting; the number of applicants still vastly outpaces the RCAF’s ability to intake and train them. This is one of the reasons the RCAF can be so selective.

This means even if we did open reserves to off the street hires, we couldn’t train them. The few available training slots need to go to the full timers who are already waiting years for their courses.

For ex regular force pilots who are already trained, the reserves are open and are an option. We have quite a few reservist pilots but they are all ex regular force (or sometimes transfers from other militaries).

That would make the most sense. Alas my dream as a civi doing a canyon run in a herc or C17 has been crushed again.

Why not? Too late to join?

[Chuck Yagermeister]

Shortage of pilots in the RCAF isn’t a function of recruiting; the number of applicants still vastly outpaces the RCAF’s ability to intake and train them. This is one of the reasons the RCAF can be so selective.

This means even if we did open reserves to off the street hires, we couldn’t train them. The few available training slots need to go to the full timers who are already waiting years for their courses.

For ex regular force pilots who are already trained, the reserves are open and are an option. We have quite a few reservist pilots but they are all ex regular force (or sometimes transfers from other militaries).

That would make the most sense. Alas my dream as a civi doing a canyon run in a herc or C17 has been crushed again.

Why not? Too late to join?

Too late, already at an airline. Not leaving a good number to go through military route. Although if air force reserve was an option.... That would be another story.

[careerpilot?]

That would make the most sense. Alas my dream as a civi doing a canyon run in a herc or C17 has been crushed again.

Why not? Too late to join?

Too late, already at an airline. Not leaving a good number to go through military route. Although if air force reserve was an option.... That would be another story.

Fair enough!

[Tanker299]

I fail to understand the comment about “the CF having tons of applicants so they can be picky” if they need to hire people from another country…. Training delays? So you come to the CF and just jump into a seat? No check ride or training on how the CF does it? Lots of folks have previous CF experience, I even have my para wings. The flight instructors are civilians for a lot of training… I work with folks that portage was their first job. I know lots of folks who can stuff a chopper into places or fly the equivalent of low level close air support, heck I have done 100s of sorties… put loads on target and wore the queens wings. In some countries what I did is an Airforce job. So I don’t buy the argument that foreign folks can be trained easier other than maybe to fly a clapped out 188. There are guys with Herc, Electra and bell 412 type ratings in Canada. Now I dont really want to go back in but that’s not the point. It’s a farce and an ol boys club. The US does it all day long.

Do we even need an “airforce” anymore? Ditch the clapped out 188 and contract the transport stuff. Conair and Airspray were flying fire cats and A26s, maritime stuff is done by PAL and the coastguard is now a defence department thing with TC pilots doing shipborne landings. But what do I know.

[careerpilot?]

I fail to understand the comment about “the CF having tons of applicants so they can be picky” if they need to hire people from another country…. Training delays? So you come to the CF and just jump into a seat? No check ride or training on how the CF does it? Lots of folks have previous CF experience, I even have my para wings. The flight instructors are civilians for a lot of training… I work with folks that portage was their first job. I know lots of folks who can stuff a chopper into places or fly the equivalent of low level close air support, heck I have done 100s of sorties… put loads on target and wore the queens wings. In some countries what I did is an Airforce job. So I don’t buy the argument that foreign folks can be trained easier other than maybe to fly a clapped out 188. There are guys with Herc, Electra and bell 412 type ratings in Canada. Now I dont really want to go back in but that’s not the point. It’s a farce and an ol boys club. The US does it all day long.

Do we even need an “airforce” anymore? Ditch the clapped out 188 and contract the transport stuff. Conair and Airspray were flying fire cats and A26s, maritime stuff is done by PAL and the coastguard is now a defence department thing with TC pilots doing shipborne landings. But what do I know.

A few things to address:

1. Foreign pilots - yes they still need to do the RCAF training and therefore take a slot away from someone coming in off the street. The difference is they come with valuable experience that means they can progress much more quickly to the senior flight leads / standards / instructor roles. They're more valuable than a new guy off the street - see para 3 below, they have much of these skills already.

2. Civilian flight instructors - The only civilian flight instructors are the Phase 1 instructors in Portage. That's only the initial ~20hrs, basically takes you to PPL solo standard with some extra (aerobatics, etc.) It's more about selection / weeding out unsuitable candidates than it is about actual instruction. Phase II, where the bread and butter of clearhood, instrument, navigation, formation, etc is taught is done almost exclusively by military instructors. There may be some civvies here but they're ex-military. Phase III, which is your conversion to helo/multi/jet depending on stream is also primarily military instructors, again potentially with some civilians that are ex-military.

3. Civvies doing Airforce jobs - it's not actually about the hands and feet. You can teach a monkey to fly, even at 50 feet contour flying on NVG in pitch black in close formation, though I guarantee no civvie pilots have even that level of experience. That's only 20% of what we do. It's the tactics. Does a civvie pilot flying 412s know the 5 steps of close combat attack procedures? How to communicate with a JTAC, do an attack team check-in, receive an AO update and understand the attack brief including all remarks and restrictions, understand weapons effects, ranges, beaten zones for different patterns, come up with an attack game plan, etc? How to integrate into busy airspace with live artillery gun target lines, ROZs, jets flying above the coordination level dropping ordinance? Does a civvie pilot know the intricacies of how to defend against an SA-15 in search / track / missile engagement modes? What about an SA-18? Do they know the difference? (spoiler alert, it's huge). I don't blame those who have never been exposed to it for not understanding everything that is involved - it's truly a "you don't know until you know" situation. Would someone with a civilian flying background find it easier to transition over? Sure. But they still require the training to learn all the things they haven't been exposed to. In the RCAF, a pilot does not just fly an aircraft - a pilot fights that aircraft as a weapons platform. This is the key difference.

I'll edit to add - RCAF pilots aren't the be-all, end all, I'm not trying to claim that. There are things civvie pilots can do that we simply aren't exposed to - long line slinging for one. Holy crap do I respect those guys who single pilot long line sling in mountainous terrain. I've done a long line with a 3 person crew, including a flight engineer conning me on, and I still found it difficult. I'll be the first to admit that a civvie pilot with the same number of hours is probably a better "hands and feet" pilot than I am. Not to say I couldn't learn it, just like a civvie pilot could learn all the stuff in para 3 above - but it demonstrates that the jobs are simply different. One can't simply take someone from one community and seamlessly move them over to another.

The US can do the off the street reserve thing - because they have the capacity to take that civvie pilot and train them. No-one steps directly from a 777 into an F22 and just does the job - they do the same training. And the US has the capacity to do this, unfortunately our small RCAF doesn't. And the juice isn't worth the squeeze to take training slots away from full time pilots in favour of the weekend warriors who only work a few days a month, aren't generally deployable on short notice, etc. I have a lot of respect for reserves but if one has to choose, a trained full timer is far more valuable than a part-timer.

[Outlaw58]

The US can do the off the street reserve thing - because they have the capacity to take that civvie pilot and train them. No-one steps directly from a 777 into an F22 and just does the job - they do the same training.

If you are going to take away only one thing, then this is it.

The training pipeline is by far the most challenging hurdle to overcome to be able to employ reservists the same way the US does. It's already too small to handle the training required to be done and as it was pointed out numerous times before, foreign military pilots only require a fraction (not zero training, but only a fraction) of the training that would be required for pilots coming off the streets with or without flying experience.

We have a fantastic new RCAF commander (LtGen Jamie Speiser-Blanchet) coming in at a time where the Government has committed to increase defense spending. I can only hope that the Government gives her the money and free reign to address issues such as the training pipe. Regardless, the RCAF is in good hands.

58

[Tbayer2021]

Lets not focus on a proper national military pilot pipe line and instead just pick up foreign military pilots. I wish I could say I was surprised but its right in line with Canadian mentality.

[Outlaw58]

Lets not focus on a proper national military pilot pipe line and instead just pick up foreign military pilots. I wish I could say I was surprised but its right in line with Canadian mentality.

Would it be too much to ask that you do a bit of research before posting nonsense? Nevermind, I just answered my own question...

Foreign military hire form only an extremely low percentage of military pilot hires. Just a very easy and convenient addition to the ranks of military pilots when the opportunity presents itself and very far from being a large and sustainable source of military pilots.

58

[careerpilot?]

Lets not focus on a proper national military pilot pipe line and instead just pick up foreign military pilots. I wish I could say I was surprised but its right in line with Canadian mentality.

Would it be too much to ask that you do a bit of research before posting nonsense? Nevermind, I just answered my own question...

Foreign military hire form only an extremely low percentage of military pilot hires. Just a very easy and convenient addition to the ranks of military pilots when the opportunity presents itself and very far from being a large and sustainable source of military pilots.

58

Not to mention - we probably export as many to other nations as we import. Pilots leave the RCAF for the RNZAF, RAAF, and RAF all the time too.

We had a pretty big influx about 10 years ago when the RAF downsized, but since then I don't recall seeing a single foreign military pilot come into the RCAF, at least into my community.

[Red_Comet]

What's interesting is how many ex-RCAF pilots I have run into on the civilian side. Seems like the job just doesn't have the ability to retain pilots. Lots of young, eager and broke teenagers looking to join up but soon as they grow up and do their time, off they go to the airlines or leave flying altogether.

Seems that would be a serious problem for the RCAF. Can any active duty pilots comment on this? Does the RCAF not realize it takes millions to train a pilot? Why would they refuse give them the required work conditions to entice them to stay?

That said, the storied past of the RCAF aside, it does seem pretty obvious that defense is Canada's lowest priority. We coyly let the yanks down south do most (realistically all) of the heavy lifting, and act indignant when called out. We instead funnel all our newly printed dollars to more pertinent ends, like the Department of Indigenous Affairs.

Oh well, all part and parcel of the true north strong and free

[careerpilot?]

What's interesting is how many ex-RCAF pilots I have run into on the civilian side. Seems like the job just doesn't have the ability to retain pilots. Lots of young, eager and broke teenagers looking to join up but soon as they grow up and do their time, off they go to the airlines or leave flying altogether.

Seems that would be a serious problem for the RCAF. Can any active duty pilots comment on this? Does the RCAF not realize it takes millions to train a pilot? Why would they refuse give them the required work conditions to entice them to stay?

That said, the storied past of the RCAF aside, it does seem pretty obvious that defense is Canada's lowest priority. We coyly let the yanks down south do most (realistically all) of the heavy lifting, and act indignant when called out. We instead funnel all our newly printed dollars to more pertinent ends, like the Department of Indigenous Affairs.

Oh well, all part and parcel of the true north strong and free

It’s a tough job, and to a degree it’s a young single person’s game. You will do the coolest things ever that early in life are great experiences but you grow out of them. One of my coolest memories is flying down the streets in downtown Baghdad dodging wires and towers to pull out some RCMP after the 2020 Iran / US tussle saw them lobbing missiles back and forth with us in the middle. Cool experience and a cool memory, but not really interested in doing it again!

Everyone’s reasons for leaving are different, but common reasons are too much office work and not enough flying, long stressful days (often behind a desk rather than flying), time away (it’s different than the airlines, you can spend months away on deployments), etc. I’m currently working on my transition out to the airlines so I can’t provide a comparison yet, and I have to guard against the “grass is greener” mentality, but when I hear some of the regionals have a “horrible” 18 day/month schedule and compare that to my current schedule, it seems like bliss. Or a 2 week on (away), 2 week off (home) setup - in the military, that would be 2 weeks on (away), then a day or two off maybe before spending 2 weeks working in the office or doing local training rather than off at home. I think most are just chasing a better lifestyle. I am personally getting out after 25yrs with my pension, and going to a regional I will still take a pay cut, but for me lifestyle is more important.

The RCAF has implemented a few retention strategies recently with mixed results. The new Air Ops trade is helping take some of the desk jobs away, but they can’t do everything as some jobs just need the experienced pilot background, and it’s not an overly attractive trade for recruiting as they literally exist to do the jobs pilots don’t want to do. Most of the jobs are necessary for career advancement as well, and cannot be dodged. A new pay scale for pilots 5 years ago brought us up closer to industry, though it’s starting to fall behind again and had many implementation issues that caused some specific experienced groups some dissatisfaction. The mandatory sign up has increased to 10 years post wings from 7, so for most it’s now a 15yr commitment. The RCAF knows it needs to do better to retain but there are just certain things that come with being in the military that can’t be removed, and for some make a full 25yr career a long stretch.

In the end it’s an awesome job, but not one that everyone can or wants to necessarily do for their entire life.

I’m not going to comment on the politics

[Outlaw58]

What's interesting is how many ex-RCAF pilots I have run into on the civilian side. Seems like the job just doesn't have the ability to retain pilots. Lots of young, eager and broke teenagers looking to join up but soon as they grow up and do their time, off they go to the airlines or leave flying altogether.

Seems that would be a serious problem for the RCAF. Can any active duty pilots comment on this? Does the RCAF not realize it takes millions to train a pilot? Why would they refuse give them the required work conditions to entice them to stay?

That said, the storied past of the RCAF aside, it does seem pretty obvious that defense is Canada's lowest priority. We coyly let the yanks down south do most (realistically all) of the heavy lifting, and act indignant when called out. We instead funnel all our newly printed dollars to more pertinent ends, like the Department of Indigenous Affairs.

Oh well, all part and parcel of the true north strong and free

It’s a tough job, and to a degree it’s a young single person’s game. You will do the coolest things ever that early in life are great experiences but you grow out of them. One of my coolest memories is flying down the streets in downtown Baghdad dodging wires and towers to pull out some RCMP after the 2020 Iran / US tussle saw them lobbing missiles back and forth with us in the middle. Cool experience and a cool memory, but not really interested in doing it again!

Everyone’s reasons for leaving are different, but common reasons are too much office work and not enough flying, long stressful days (often behind a desk rather than flying), time away (it’s different than the airlines, you can spend months away on deployments), etc. I’m currently working on my transition out to the airlines so I can’t provide a comparison yet, and I have to guard against the “grass is greener” mentality, but when I hear some of the regionals have a “horrible” 18 day/month schedule and compare that to my current schedule, it seems like bliss. Or a 2 week on (away), 2 week off (home) setup - in the military, that would be 2 weeks on (away), then a day or two off maybe before spending 2 weeks working in the office or doing local training rather than off at home. I think most are just chasing a better lifestyle. I am personally getting out after 25yrs with my pension, and going to a regional I will still take a pay cut, but for me lifestyle is more important.

The RCAF has implemented a few retention strategies recently with mixed results. The new Air Ops trade is helping take some of the desk jobs away, but they can’t do everything as some jobs just need the experienced pilot background, and it’s not an overly attractive trade for recruiting as they literally exist to do the jobs pilots don’t want to do. Most of the jobs are necessary for career advancement as well, and cannot be dodged. A new pay scale for pilots 5 years ago brought us up closer to industry, though it’s starting to fall behind again and had many implementation issues that caused some specific experienced groups some dissatisfaction. The mandatory sign up has increased to 10 years post wings from 7, so for most it’s now a 15yr commitment. The RCAF knows it needs to do better to retain but there are just certain things that come with being in the military that can’t be removed, and for some make a full 25yr career a long stretch.

In the end it’s an awesome job, but not one that everyone can or wants to necessarily do for their entire life.

I’m not going to comment on the politics

CP covered it pretty well IMHO, in that moving on after a military flying career is a normal thing. For some it will happen sooner, for others...later. I would just be cautious of painting everyone with the same brush. Military pilots have joined the RCAF at different point in their lives and for different reasons. They also leave at different points, and also for different reasons.

Just because you know two or three pilots that have left the military for the airlines as soon as their obligatory service was up, doesn't make it a rule that applies to everyone. It's the same thing as saying that just because a 2000TT instructor skipped the regionals altogether and was hired directly at AC, that makes it "de facto" the fastest and only career path that pilots aspiring to go to AC should follow.

Of note, shortly after I retired, the military SIGNIFICANTLY raised the salary of pilots, offering 10 more incentives capping at around 180K for a 20 year Captain. I fully realize that these numbers are not accurate but they are in the ballpark. What is interesting is that while it somewhat helped retention, it mostly convinced pilots that were on the fence about staying or leaving but did not significantly affect pilots who's mind to leave was already made. Yet another example that in our profession, salary is not the "end-all-be-all".

Lastly, being fully retired now, I will comment on the politics. What RC said about Canada's defense priority is unfortunately very close to reality. While some governments made some efforts to better the state of our CAF, the reality is that ever since the iron curtain came down, and with it the threat of global warfare, the appetite for the Canadian population and by extension governments to properly fund and maintain a military has slowly eroded over the years. The cuts made in the early 90s resulting in severe decrease in personnel, numerous base closure and an increased reliance in civilian third party services and off-the-shelf purchase are still hurting us to this day. This said, it would appear that the Agent Orange threat to the south has shocked the nation toward increase defense spendings and the diversification/strengthening of military relations with Nations other than the US. What has taken decades to destroy will not be rebuilt overnight, but I remain hopeful that the new CANUS rapport that is now in place, was the "come to mama" moment Canada needed to start placing eggs in baskets other than the US one.

My slightly more than "2 cents"

58

[Red_Comet]

Thanks gents for these very valuable insights. I always idealized the RCAF pilot life, but the reality seems as tough as one would expect given the demands of the job. The high stress and long hours are definitely suited to energetic young folk, as the desire and capacity to do those benders rapidly fades with age. Last I heard it was now up to 13 years service required for pilots, which is one way to solve the retention problem.

I'd still like to do some aerobatics in an L39 before I kick the can, and that'll be more than enough for me to live out the top gun dreams.

Thank you gents for your service to this once great nation. Looking back, I feel like I grew up in what was basically heaven on earth. How quickly it all faded...

[oneL]

What's interesting is how many ex-RCAF pilots I have run into on the civilian side. Seems like the job just doesn't have the ability to retain pilots. Lots of young, eager and broke teenagers looking to join up but soon as they grow up and do their time, off they go to the airlines or leave flying altogether.

Seems that would be a serious problem for the RCAF. Can any active duty pilots comment on this? Does the RCAF not realize it takes millions to train a pilot? Why would they refuse give them the required work conditions to entice them to stay?

That said, the storied past of the RCAF aside, it does seem pretty obvious that defense is Canada's lowest priority. We coyly let the yanks down south do most (realistically all) of the heavy lifting, and act indignant when called out. We instead funnel all our newly printed dollars to more pertinent ends, like the Department of Indigenous Affairs.

Oh well, all part and parcel of the true north strong and free

It’s a tough job, and to a degree it’s a young single person’s game. You will do the coolest things ever that early in life are great experiences but you grow out of them. One of my coolest memories is flying down the streets in downtown Baghdad dodging wires and towers to pull out some RCMP after the 2020 Iran / US tussle saw them lobbing missiles back and forth with us in the middle. Cool experience and a cool memory, but not really interested in doing it again!

Everyone’s reasons for leaving are different, but common reasons are too much office work and not enough flying, long stressful days (often behind a desk rather than flying), time away (it’s different than the airlines, you can spend months away on deployments), etc. I’m currently working on my transition out to the airlines so I can’t provide a comparison yet, and I have to guard against the “grass is greener” mentality, but when I hear some of the regionals have a “horrible” 18 day/month schedule and compare that to my current schedule, it seems like bliss. Or a 2 week on (away), 2 week off (home) setup - in the military, that would be 2 weeks on (away), then a day or two off maybe before spending 2 weeks working in the office or doing local training rather than off at home. I think most are just chasing a better lifestyle. I am personally getting out after 25yrs with my pension, and going to a regional I will still take a pay cut, but for me lifestyle is more important.

The RCAF has implemented a few retention strategies recently with mixed results. The new Air Ops trade is helping take some of the desk jobs away, but they can’t do everything as some jobs just need the experienced pilot background, and it’s not an overly attractive trade for recruiting as they literally exist to do the jobs pilots don’t want to do. Most of the jobs are necessary for career advancement as well, and cannot be dodged. A new pay scale for pilots 5 years ago brought us up closer to industry, though it’s starting to fall behind again and had many implementation issues that caused some specific experienced groups some dissatisfaction. The mandatory sign up has increased to 10 years post wings from 7, so for most it’s now a 15yr commitment. The RCAF knows it needs to do better to retain but there are just certain things that come with being in the military that can’t be removed, and for some make a full 25yr career a long stretch.

In the end it’s an awesome job, but not one that everyone can or wants to necessarily do for their entire life.

I’m not going to comment on the politics

CP covered it pretty well IMHO, in that moving on after a military flying career is a normal thing. For some it will happen sooner, for others...later. I would just be cautious of painting everyone with the same brush. Military pilots have joined the RCAF at different point in their lives and for different reasons. They also leave at different points, and also for different reasons.

Just because you know two or three pilots that have left the military for the airlines as soon as their obligatory service was up, doesn't make it a rule that applies to everyone. It's the same thing as saying that just because a 2000TT instructor skipped the regionals altogether and was hired directly at AC, that makes it "de facto" the fastest and only career path that pilots aspiring to go to AC should follow.

Of note, shortly after I retired, the military SIGNIFICANTLY raised the salary of pilots, offering 10 more incentives capping at around 180K for a 20 year Captain. I fully realize that these numbers are not accurate but they are in the ballpark. What is interesting is that while it somewhat helped retention, it mostly convinced pilots that were on the fence about staying or leaving but did not significantly affect pilots who's mind to leave was already made. Yet another example that in our profession, salary is not the "end-all-be-all".

Lastly, being fully retired now, I will comment on the politics. What RC said about Canada's defense priority is unfortunately very close to reality. While some governments made some efforts to better the state of our CAF, the reality is that ever since the iron curtain came down, and with it the threat of global warfare, the appetite for the Canadian population and by extension governments to properly fund and maintain a military has slowly eroded over the years. The cuts made in the early 90s resulting in severe decrease in personnel, numerous base closure and an increased reliance in civilian third party services and off-the-shelf purchase are still hurting us to this day. This said, it would appear that the Agent Orange threat to the south has shocked the nation toward increase defense spendings and the diversification/strengthening of military relations with Nations other than the US. What has taken decades to destroy will not be rebuilt overnight, but I remain hopeful that the new CANUS rapport that is now in place, was the "come to mama" moment Canada needed to start placing eggs in baskets other than the US one.

My slightly more than "2 cents"

58

Regarding the pay raise back in 2021, yes it was pretty significant and helped change the minds of a few guys I knew who were in the process of releasing.
For numbers, you can look it up online at any time.
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-nat ... .html#plts

Pay for pilot (Captain rank) tops out at $17,723 /month by year 20, with some caveats (e.g. become instructor) to get to that level.

[Jonathanali]

Makes sense given the shortage—sometimes looking overseas is the fastest way to fill critical roles, though it highlights the ongoing need to train and retain domestic pilots.

[Tanker299]

I stand by my statement that hiring Canadian pilots VS guys off the street or from another country is the way it should be done. I also take it a step further and pilots who have been in the CF even as an NCO should definitely get the top priority over foreign pilots and even untrained OTS.

Here is an interesting article from the Ottawa Citizen.

The Canadian Forces is counting on public servants to volunteer for military service as it tries to ramp up an army of 300,000 as part of a mobilization plan, according to a defence department directive.
Federal and provincial employees would be given a one-week training course in how to handle firearms, drive trucks and fly drones, according to the directive, signed by Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Jennie Carignan and defence deputy minister Stefanie Beck on May 30, 2025.
The public servants would be inducted into the Supplementary Reserve, which is currently made up of inactive or retired members of the Canadian Forces who are willing to return to duty if called. At this point, there are 4,384 personnel in the Supplementary Reserves, but in the case of an emergency, that would be boosted to 300,000, according to the directive from Beck and Carignan.
While the supplementary recruiting push will “prioritize volunteer public servants at the federal and provincial/territorial level” the entry standards wouldn’t be strict, according to the nine-page unclassified directive.
“The entry criteria for the Supplementary or other Reserve should be less restrictive than the Reserve Force for age limits as well as physical and fitness requirements,” the document noted.
After the initial entry into the ranks, the public servants would be required to do one week’s worth of military training each year but would not be issued uniforms. Medical coverage would be provided for their annual military service, but that time would not count towards their pensions, the directive pointed out.
The training focus would be on “basic skills (e.g. shoot, move, and communicate; drive a truck; fly a drone: etc.)”, Beck and Carignan wrote.
Their directive approved the creation of a “tiger team” which will work on setting the stage for a Defence Mobilization Plan or DMP. That team will examine what changes are needed to government legislation as well as examine other factors required to allow for such a massive influx of Canadians into the military.
Department of National Defence spokeswoman Andrée-Anne Poulin confirmed in an email that participation in the expanded reserve force would be voluntary. “Initial planning has begun to explore how the CAF (Canadian Armed Forces) could contribute to greater national resilience, including leveraging increased readiness from an expanded Reserve Force for defence purposes, in times of crisis, or for natural disasters for example,” she added.
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Neither DND nor the military would provide comment on the timelines for the creation of the mobilization plan.
Work on the initiative by the tiger team located at DND’s Carling Campus in Ottawa began on June 4. DND would not comment on whether Carignan and Beck have been briefed on the initial work of the team.
The directive also points to a massive increase in the number of Canadian Forces reservists. The reserves are made up of volunteers who are in current military units. Although they are considered part-time, they are involved in training on a year-round basis.
The current reserve force would jump from 23,561 to 100,000 for the mobilization plan. There are no details on how that increase would be handled.
Beck and Carignan pointed out that the plan would require a Whole of Society (or WoS) effort, meaning that all Canadians would have to contribute to the initiative. That would require the Privy Council Office to lead a government “approach to population engagement to advance servant culture around sovereignty and public accountability,” according to their directive.
“Defence will not accomplish the outcome alone, rather it will necessitate shaping, facilitation and engagement with the Privy Council Office, other government departments and agencies as well as socialization with the Canadian public,” they added.
The tiger team will also consult with Canada’s allies, “including Finland which is a recognized leader in this area,” the document pointed out.
Finland has a conscription-based military. Every male Finnish citizen aged 18-60 is liable for military service, and women can apply for military service on a voluntary basis, according to the Finnish defence department website.
After Finnish citizens complete their compulsory full-time military service, they are transferred to the reserves. In May, the Finnish government proposed an initiative that would raise the age limit of conscript reservists to 65.
DND and the Canadian Forces also declined to comment on how ongoing recruitment problems might impact its mobilization plan.
A new report by Auditor General Karen Hogan revealed that the Canadian Forces is not currently recruiting enough individuals to meet its operational needs. “The Canadian Armed Forces continued to have challenges attracting and training enough highly skilled recruits to staff many occupations such as pilots and ammunition technicians,” Hogan said of the report, which was released Oct. 21.
In their document, Beck and Carignan noted the Canadian government has called for greater resiliency and autonomy on security matters. In order to achieve that goal, the Defence Mobilization Plan is needed, they added.
The document does not set out the specific criteria for the mobilization plan to be put into action. But it does mention that global security has been dramatically affected by the rise of strategic competition among states.
Some Canadian Forces leaders have claimed that a war between western nations and China or Russia could happen in the near future. In June 2025, Brig.-Gen. Brendan Cook, the Royal Canadian Air Force’s director general of air and space force development, warned that Canada needed to rearm for a potential war with China or Russia. That war could come between 2028 and 2030, Cook suggested.
In October 2023, the Ottawa Citizen reported on a document issued by then Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Wayne Eyre pointed out that Canada is already at war with Russia and China.
David Pugliese is an award-winning journalist covering Canadian Forces and military issues in Canada. To support his work, including exclusive content.

[Red_Comet]

I stand by my statement that hiring Canadian pilots VS guys off the street or from another country is the way it should be done. I also take it a step further and pilots who have been in the CF even as an NCO should definitely get the top priority over foreign pilots and even untrained OTS.

Here is an interesting article from the Ottawa Citizen.

The Canadian Forces is counting on public servants to volunteer for military service as it tries to ramp up an army of 300,000 as part of a mobilization plan, according to a defence department directive.
Federal and provincial employees would be given a one-week training course in how to handle firearms, drive trucks and fly drones, according to the directive, signed by Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Jennie Carignan and defence deputy minister Stefanie Beck on May 30, 2025.
The public servants would be inducted into the Supplementary Reserve, which is currently made up of inactive or retired members of the Canadian Forces who are willing to return to duty if called. At this point, there are 4,384 personnel in the Supplementary Reserves, but in the case of an emergency, that would be boosted to 300,000, according to the directive from Beck and Carignan.
While the supplementary recruiting push will “prioritize volunteer public servants at the federal and provincial/territorial level” the entry standards wouldn’t be strict, according to the nine-page unclassified directive.
“The entry criteria for the Supplementary or other Reserve should be less restrictive than the Reserve Force for age limits as well as physical and fitness requirements,” the document noted.
After the initial entry into the ranks, the public servants would be required to do one week’s worth of military training each year but would not be issued uniforms. Medical coverage would be provided for their annual military service, but that time would not count towards their pensions, the directive pointed out.
The training focus would be on “basic skills (e.g. shoot, move, and communicate; drive a truck; fly a drone: etc.)”, Beck and Carignan wrote.
Their directive approved the creation of a “tiger team” which will work on setting the stage for a Defence Mobilization Plan or DMP. That team will examine what changes are needed to government legislation as well as examine other factors required to allow for such a massive influx of Canadians into the military.
Department of National Defence spokeswoman Andrée-Anne Poulin confirmed in an email that participation in the expanded reserve force would be voluntary. “Initial planning has begun to explore how the CAF (Canadian Armed Forces) could contribute to greater national resilience, including leveraging increased readiness from an expanded Reserve Force for defence purposes, in times of crisis, or for natural disasters for example,” she added.
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Neither DND nor the military would provide comment on the timelines for the creation of the mobilization plan.
Work on the initiative by the tiger team located at DND’s Carling Campus in Ottawa began on June 4. DND would not comment on whether Carignan and Beck have been briefed on the initial work of the team.
The directive also points to a massive increase in the number of Canadian Forces reservists. The reserves are made up of volunteers who are in current military units. Although they are considered part-time, they are involved in training on a year-round basis.
The current reserve force would jump from 23,561 to 100,000 for the mobilization plan. There are no details on how that increase would be handled.
Beck and Carignan pointed out that the plan would require a Whole of Society (or WoS) effort, meaning that all Canadians would have to contribute to the initiative. That would require the Privy Council Office to lead a government “approach to population engagement to advance servant culture around sovereignty and public accountability,” according to their directive.
“Defence will not accomplish the outcome alone, rather it will necessitate shaping, facilitation and engagement with the Privy Council Office, other government departments and agencies as well as socialization with the Canadian public,” they added.
The tiger team will also consult with Canada’s allies, “including Finland which is a recognized leader in this area,” the document pointed out.
Finland has a conscription-based military. Every male Finnish citizen aged 18-60 is liable for military service, and women can apply for military service on a voluntary basis, according to the Finnish defence department website.
After Finnish citizens complete their compulsory full-time military service, they are transferred to the reserves. In May, the Finnish government proposed an initiative that would raise the age limit of conscript reservists to 65.
DND and the Canadian Forces also declined to comment on how ongoing recruitment problems might impact its mobilization plan.
A new report by Auditor General Karen Hogan revealed that the Canadian Forces is not currently recruiting enough individuals to meet its operational needs. “The Canadian Armed Forces continued to have challenges attracting and training enough highly skilled recruits to staff many occupations such as pilots and ammunition technicians,” Hogan said of the report, which was released Oct. 21.
In their document, Beck and Carignan noted the Canadian government has called for greater resiliency and autonomy on security matters. In order to achieve that goal, the Defence Mobilization Plan is needed, they added.
The document does not set out the specific criteria for the mobilization plan to be put into action. But it does mention that global security has been dramatically affected by the rise of strategic competition among states.
Some Canadian Forces leaders have claimed that a war between western nations and China or Russia could happen in the near future. In June 2025, Brig.-Gen. Brendan Cook, the Royal Canadian Air Force’s director general of air and space force development, warned that Canada needed to rearm for a potential war with China or Russia. That war could come between 2028 and 2030, Cook suggested.
In October 2023, the Ottawa Citizen reported on a document issued by then Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Wayne Eyre pointed out that Canada is already at war with Russia and China.
David Pugliese is an award-winning journalist covering Canadian Forces and military issues in Canada. To support his work, including exclusive content.

I'll be honest, this idea sounds like wish fulfillment for those very passionate folk who dream of taking on evil Yanks and showing them that our plucky little country is the hero of the world. So basically, for those who view the world through the lens of a superhero movie for children. But if I put aside my cynicism, it's a great idea overall to foster a nationalist spirit.

However, given that the young in this country cannot afford rent, a family or anything else for that matter, what incentive do they have to fight for the post-national economic zone we now call Canada? If anyone and everyone in the world is Canadian, then no-one is Canadian. The Canada of my youth was truly an idyllic land of opportunity, where I could do anything and opportunities were limitless. In a few decades, things have radically changed to the point where basic subsistence is nearly impossible.

Finally the concept of a world war with Russia/China is batshit insane. China builds and supplies everything to everyone. They now have the largest Navy in the world, and dominate critical supply chains for all military hardware production. They are the largest shipbuilders in the world, and dominate all heavy industry. And their ally Russia, has infinite natural resources to supply their rapid growth. China does this all as a proud communist country, where capitalists are given the death sentence for exploiting society for their own gain. A communist country that provides cheaper housing, healthcare and education to their people than we do anywhere in the west. A communist country that invests in its own people, instead of draining the world's poor and desperate for cheap labor while crushing their own citizens with inflation and unemployment.

Canada builds nothing but overpriced plywood houses which they then sell to these poor indentured servants and calls it an economy. Go find one supply chain that Canada dominates, and get back to me. We don't even mine our natural resources and sell them to our allies, let alone contribute anything meaningful the world economy that makes it possible for us to wage any sort of war against anyone. The Canada of the past was a pioneering nation which was at the forefront of technology. Today, we are at the forefront of financial pyramid schemes, much like our bigger brother down south.

The End of History indeed.