Mainline hiring

[goingmissed]

Lol, Flair's chief pilot posting on Westjet forum, that's funny

Let's be fair... he seems to be more in tune with the issues that the pilot group at WS/WO/WR have than WestJet management.

I have shat on Flair in the past, but I have yet to speak to a Flair pilot who is pissed off at the company.

[Roundel Randy]

jeez are there any good options for someone who wants to live in Calgary?? both Jazz and WJ sound like shit

Flair will be opening a YYC base spring '23

This is awesome!

[pacman007]

Seems to me there will be a lot of 737 jobs in Canada coming up. But how many of these pilots can actually make a living? Afford a house? Raise a family? To me there are only 2 options. WJ and AC…no point going capt and making less than people on a 1900! My personal thoughts only!

[goingmissed]

Seems to me there will be a lot of 737 jobs in Canada coming up. But how many of these pilots can actually make a living? Afford a house? Raise a family? To me there are only 2 options. WJ and AC…no point going capt and making less than people on a 1900! My personal thoughts only!

I'm sorry, what?

(Rate * Minimum Yearly Hour Guarantee [MMG * 12] = Expected Base Salary)
Year One First Officer:
WestJet (2022): $64.91 * 900 = $58,419.00
Flair (2020): $69.93 * 960 = $67,132.80

Year Two First Officer:
WestJet (2022): $70.36 * 900 = $63,324
Flair (2020): $74.70 * 960 = $71,712

Year Three First Officer:
WestJet (2022): $88.12 * 900 = $79,308.00
Flair (2020): $77.43 * 960 = $74,332.80+

First Three Years Combined
WestJet = $201,051.00
Flair = $213,177.60

[Greasy Greaser]

Seems to me there will be a lot of 737 jobs in Canada coming up. But how many of these pilots can actually make a living? Afford a house? Raise a family? To me there are only 2 options. WJ and AC…no point going capt and making less than people on a 1900! My personal thoughts only!

I'm sorry, what?

(Rate * Minimum Yearly Hour Guarantee [MMG * 12] = Expected Base Salary)
Year One First Officer:
WestJet (2022): $64.91 * 900 = $58,419.00
Flair (2020): $69.93 * 960 = $67,132.80

Year Two First Officer:
WestJet (2022): $70.36 * 900 = $63,324
Flair (2020): $74.70 * 960 = $71,712

Year Three First Officer:
WestJet (2022): $88.12 * 900 = $79,308.00
Flair (2020): $77.43 * 960 = $74,332.80+

First Three Years Combined
WestJet = $201,051.00
Flair = $213,177.60

Those rates are off by a lot.

Mainline MMG is 77.5 not 75.

Year one FO WJ is 64.92 * 930 = $60 375.60 *.2 for WSP (If you opt for it which you should if you can) = $72 450.72.
Year 3 for example is the big jump to $89.88 so that is about $101K. Again, gotta include WSP which is 20% at mainline.
Top 737 FO is around $140K mark. Non of this includes per diems and OT of course, just straight base salary which assumes 20% WSP.

If you really want to go the extra mile, one would figure out the tax implications depending on what plan some one is doing but that is too much work.

Now take home pay...that is a different story LOL. We pay LTD/STD, too much for benefits, and 20% taken off if doing the WestJet savings plan; so expect to take home about 35% of what your gross is at WJ until a higher tax bracket where it's even less. But make it through two years (even one year) and you're laughing when you start withdrawing money from the WSP.

Not sure what Flair offers for ERP/ESP so we need those number to have a more comparable comparison.

[pacman007]

You can always compare yr 1,2,3 FO salaries and think you are comparable. But let’s look at where you will be in 12-15 years. This is where pilots really make the money and your sacrifices are supposed to pay off. What are the numbers for top WJ 737 and top AC max capt compared to flair,or lynx? Factoring in YOS for the majors. This is what I mean by being able to retire somewhat wealthy.

[Hangry]

The long game doesn’t seem to be in favour for many these days.

[pitottubey]

You can always compare yr 1,2,3 FO salaries and think you are comparable. But let’s look at where you will be in 12-15 years. This is where pilots really make the money and your sacrifices are supposed to pay off. What are the numbers for top WJ 737 and top AC max capt compared to flair,or lynx? Factoring in YOS for the majors. This is what I mean by being able to retire somewhat wealthy.

Flair gets you home every night so you cant just compare dollars, its an oversimplification.

[ant_321]

You can always compare yr 1,2,3 FO salaries and think you are comparable. But let’s look at where you will be in 12-15 years. This is where pilots really make the money and your sacrifices are supposed to pay off. What are the numbers for top WJ 737 and top AC max capt compared to flair,or lynx? Factoring in YOS for the majors. This is what I mean by being able to retire somewhat wealthy.

Flair gets you home every night so you cant just compare dollars, its an oversimplification.

Is that a good thing? After sleeping in my own bed for 18 months during covid I decided I would never take a home every night job for less than 7 figures.

[pitottubey]

You can always compare yr 1,2,3 FO salaries and think you are comparable. But let’s look at where you will be in 12-15 years. This is where pilots really make the money and your sacrifices are supposed to pay off. What are the numbers for top WJ 737 and top AC max capt compared to flair,or lynx? Factoring in YOS for the majors. This is what I mean by being able to retire somewhat wealthy.

Flair gets you home every night so you cant just compare dollars, its an oversimplification.

Is that a good thing? After sleeping in my own bed for 18 months during covid I decided I would never take a home every night job for less than 7 figures.

Yes for lots of people that a good thing lol

[goingmissed]

Yes for lots of people that a good thing lol

Some people like being in hotel rooms in different cities every night.

I prefer to be in my own bed with my best friend every night.

[pitottubey]

Same

[pacman007]

A WestJet pilot can expect to earn 6,000,000 over a 25 year career even after a 10 year wait for upgrade
AC pilot is in the range of 8 million not factoring pension.

You can do the math at your ULCC and see what you come up with. But I gather sleeping on your bed every night is costing you multi millions. Fell free to do the math yourself and decide.

[pitottubey]

10 nights away per month is about 1/3 of your free time spent away. That’s 13 years of your life spent in a hotel. How much is time worth?

[kiaszceski]

A WestJet pilot can expect to earn 6,000,000 over a 25 year career even after a 10 year wait for upgrade
AC pilot is in the range of 8 million not factoring pension.

You can do the math at your ULCC and see what you come up with. But I gather sleeping on your bed every night is costing you multi millions. Fell free to do the math yourself and decide.

Have you factored in the crash pad or the house you have to buy in Toronto/Vancouver vs Calgary?
I’m not sure the difference is so much.

[goingmissed]

A WestJet pilot can expect to earn 6,000,000 over a 25 year career even after a 10 year wait for upgrade
AC pilot is in the range of 8 million not factoring pension.

You can do the math at your ULCC and see what you come up with. But I gather sleeping on your bed every night is costing you multi millions. Fell free to do the math yourself and decide.

On the other hand, how much would you pay to be with family and friends and not sitting alone in a dank hotel room overlooking the Thunder Bay airport?

[JBI]

While it's extremely important to do back of the napkin math on potential earnings, there are a few caveats both in favour for and against going to WJ or one of the newer ULCC's at the moment.

Your first 3 years will be roughly equivalent when you look at it. While $10,000ish a year isn't nothing, it won't make a big factor in your medium/long term career earnings. That's why small retention bonuses generally don't work.

The question has to be what happens after your first 3 years. Depending on your experience, at a ULCC, provided the growth goes as planned/hoped, you'll be a Captain on a 737. You will be making more money than a WJ 4th/5th/6th year FO. So that gets you further. Add in potential for better seniority, better options for bases (in theory) and there is a very strong argument to choose a ULCC over WJ at the moment.

WJ on the other hand is more established. In theory, there's an argument that there's less risk of survival, but honestly who knows. Prior to making their pivot to focus more on the west and on leisure flying, they were trying to do something - compete with AC as the second Canadian International airline - that has never successfully been done before. Sure they've lasted 25 years, but like Canada3000, Canadian, WardAir and CP before it, how successful would they continue to be.

Now the new direction, in my opinion, is a good move. BUT, there are SO many unknowns it's absolutely impossible to accuracy guess what one’s career advancement will be like. It could be awesome or it could stall. They are currently only hiring for YYZ, yet they've publicly stated they've moving away from YYZ flying. Plus you also have the SunWing merger to consider. How is your career going to look in YYZ for a carrier that will be focusing on the West. They just announced they're moving all their 787s to YYC.

I'd also argue at this point its basically impossible to determine how long your upgrade is going to be. So many factors - would you take a Swoop upgrade? Where are bases going to be and what options will there be? What will happen with the SunWing integration? Will there be new Narrowbody planes, and if so, will they be at WJ or Swoop or SunWing? And where will they be based.

I like the "WJ Group of Companies" but there are so many unknowns right now. Past performance does not guarantee future success.

[Mach1]

WestJet was smart enough not the buy out another airline... until now. No absorbing someone's debt to take a competitor off the field. No merging of lists nor cultures to deal with. Ultimately, merger mania has taken down many airlines in Canada in the past and I was hopeful that lessons had been learned. I was wrong.

To paraphrase any number of Western's, "This country's not big enough for the lot of us." The next few years are going to see bankruptcies and mergers... possibly followed by more bankruptcies. I can't say who will survive but I can say that in 5 years the playing field will have less players.

[goingmissed]

WestJet was smart enough not the buy out another airline... until now. No absorbing someone's debt to take a competitor off the field. No merging of lists nor cultures to deal with. Ultimately, merger mania has taken down many airlines in Canada in the past and I was hopeful that lessons had been learned. I was wrong.

To paraphrase any number of Western's, "This country's not big enough for the lot of us." The next few years are going to see bankruptcies and mergers... possibly followed by more bankruptcies. I can't say who will survive but I can say that in 5 years the playing field will have less players.

Remember: Onyx is looking for short term profit when it sells off WestJet, not long term profit and prosperity for WestJet.

[truecolours]

I think a major indicator of a company's well-being (and economy as a whole) is recruitment.

Just a few weeks ago we were advertising pilot positions for most companies within the group. Paid ads on linked in, etc. There were nearly 100 positions open across the group (all departments). Take a look today and you'll see no pilot positions posted and a whopping total of 13 open positions across the company. The music has stopped and we didn't even make it through the first verse!

I've been at the company 10ish years. This is the first time since my start date that I have this feeling it won't be where I retire (and not my choice).

I am happy to read some still remain optimistic, but all I see is a company (and people making decisions for it) floundering around. Take last weeks all pilot call for example - "As you are watching this, a new bid will be out with upgrades". Our own VP of the department doesn't have a handle on what is going on around here.

[goingmissed]

I think a major indicator of a company's well-being (and economy as a whole) is recruitment.

Just a few weeks ago we were advertising pilot positions for most companies within the group. Paid ads on linked in, etc. There were nearly 100 positions open across the group (all departments). Take a look today and you'll see no pilot positions posted and a whopping total of 13 open positions across the company. The music has stopped and we didn't even make it through the first verse!

I've been at the company 10ish years. This is the first time since my start date that I have this feeling it won't be where I retire (and not my choice).

I am happy to read some still remain optimistic, but all I see is a company (and people making decisions for it) floundering around. Take last weeks all pilot call for example - "As you are watching this, a new bid will be out with upgrades". Our own VP of the department doesn't have a handle on what is going on around here.

Which makes little sense considering they indicated a need for a bunch of pilots at mainline just a few days ago.

[pacman007]

Maybe the Sunwing merger is going through, and now the company has to decide where the other 450 pilots are going. Suddenly WestJet is over staffed? I’m guessing the sunwing pilots will be dispersed between encore and swoop. That’s my guess on why recruiting has stopped.

[aerobod]

Positions being posted then disappearing has nothing at all to do with whether the position is filled or any disorganisation from WS corporate HR. Over my years at WS, I recruited about 100 people to my IT teams. Each posting has a lifecycle to collect resumes, interview people who seem like prospects and decide on those who will go to 2nd interview or receive offers. Typically the posting would only stay open for 2 weeks for each cycle, then be posted again if the relevant number of people in the recruitment pipeline was too little.

Collecting too many resumes at one time is a problem in terms of the HR team capacity and the capability of the hiring dept to process enough applicants to not leave those applying for a job too long without contact or interview.

[truecolours]

Maybe the Sunwing merger is going through, and now the company has to decide where the other 450 pilots are going. Suddenly WestJet is over staffed? I’m guessing the sunwing pilots will be dispersed between encore and swoop. That’s my guess on why recruiting has stopped.

Maybe, but I don’t think so. The AT/AC merger process took way longer and that process started pre-covid. If the CTA and Competition Bureau are the only two government bodies processing things faster than before covid, I have some questions!

I think we are in a dire financial situation and every department has been ordered to close the taps as a last ditch effort to stop the bleeding.

Don’t tell Gabur Lukas we aren’t hiring when we are blaming cancellations on staff shortages….

[goingmissed]

Positions being posted then disappearing has nothing at all to do with whether the position is filled or any disorganisation from WS corporate HR. Over my years at WS, I recruited about 100 people to my IT teams. Each posting has a lifecycle to collect resumes, interview people who seem like prospects and decide on those who will go to 2nd interview or receive offers. Typically the posting would only stay open for 2 weeks for each cycle, then be posted again if the relevant number of people in the recruitment pipeline was too little.

Collecting too many resumes at one time is a problem in terms of the HR team capacity and the capability of the hiring dept to process enough applicants to not leave those applying for a job too long without contact or interview.

I get the argument, but that seems like a poor decision. Why would you prevent potentially great applicants from applying just because you have a pool of good applicants?