TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

[Vanguard]

Stop comparing to the US. It makes ZERO difference to an arbitrator. Is it interesting and something to strive towards? of course. Poor Canada is a laggard in just about every business and at every level of pay and compensation. Doctors, Lawyers, Same. Welcome to socialist Canada.

It IS a step in the right direction and only a 3 year deal. As for FOs, they have very few senior FOs and that means more than 3 years. Its virtually a brand new company post covid. The time to command is about the quickest in the business right now. So you're a new FO with 2000-3000K hrs and get to fly a brand new 737. Make roughly 75K and likely get to 100K with some extra work. Upgrade in a short amount of time. Live in your base and home pretty much every night with the vast majority of flying during the day. Whats the problem again? Haters gonna hate.
Be happy.

It’s this idiot mentality that people have in Canada that has held this industry back. STOP it. Ask for better — better yet you have this one chance to fight for it.

It’s people like the above that have been bottom barrel of the industry taking anything they can get to get into a flying job. It’s time to call out this bullshit. Pilots in Canada made 75k long ago and the housing market was affordable. 75k as a pilot with the carrot of quick upgrade. You know where to put that carrot.

150k to start as a 737 skipper is disgraceful still. No YOS?? You’re kidding me. Look at AC payscales long ago. It’s this settling mentality that holds us all back.

You won’t get US wages but you aren’t worth less than 50% of the value of a US pilot. Wake the fu%# up.

[throwawaycorporate]

Every negotiated contract directly affects every pilot in the industry. I feel this contract misses the mark and will create overworked pilots and hostility between CA and FO at the least. To say "it doesn't matter because you'll be captain in 12 months" is not valid as growth will eventually stop. I think it would be wise to vote NO and push for more from the company:

• FO wages increase same % as CA

• All wages indexed to the CPI (the 2.5% listed in the pay scales is essentially a ~4% pay cut per year meaning at the end of the 3 years each pilot will be making ~12% less in real terms if inflation remains inflated)

• Me too clause similar to Delta's that ensures F50 pilots get 1% more than any contract ratified by Swoop/Lynx/Canada Jetlines/other competitors?

• Remain at 80MMG with a lower cap on scheduling block. (Delta negotiated 34% + improvements in work/life balance). Not everyone wants to work 10% more each month.

In Ontario, education workers walked off the job for 2 days despite a "back to work" mandate and the threat of hefty fines. The precedent has been set again that "back to work" mandates are against labour's charter rights. Many US and international pilot groups recently have shown intent to strike. And it's been effective.

Some raises in the US as a %: Delta 34%, Republic 54-94%, Alaska 23%, >100% at Mesa

American Airlines pilots (already industry leading pay) turned down 19%, Air Canada pilots voted overwhelmingly NO to the LOA. King Air pilots with a fresh ATPL are making 140K + to work 14/14 schedules. It is clear where compensation is trending in this industry. If Spirit can pay their FO's $148USD and their Captains $277USD, then all of our low cost carriers can afford to pay $148CAD and $277CAD and still get a 30% discount on global market rate. Canadian pilots have the ability to capture these transformative gains as well, we just need to stop making excuses as to why it won't happen here, and focus on making it happen here.

I can't think of a single pilot who won't benefit from a NO.

[safetyfirst123]

Let's look back at the US industry in the last couple of decades. Yes, they were ahead of Canadians, but not nearly by as much. Regional pilots in the US were actually behind the standard set by Jazz and Porter in the late 2000's. What really hindered our ability in Canada to improve was when AC pilots were forced into a crappy and long contract, which held every other pilot group back in Canada. In the last ten years or so is when the US pilot groups were able to make their strong gains.

I also see many of the senior pilots at airlines other than AC very weary of big gains. They've seen multiple bankruptcies, and I can understand why they are nervous. There is also a large gap in pay between junior and senior pilots, with pay scales that take a really long time to achieve meaningful earnings. A senior captain making well into the $200,000's at a charter or LCC knows their next job might be right seat making $75,000 if they're lucky.

Now is our chance to make progress like the US pilots were able to in the last ten years, but we need to stop the excuses!

[Tdicommuter]

Rather than assume people who are pointing out short comings in the TA are all haters, why not digest for a moment what is being offered as advice from your brethren.

The sick days went down... But used the government required ones in the tally to say there are more? What happens if those government required ones go away?

85 hours a month is not where you want to aim for. Working more is not making more. That is the rationale air Canada sold it's guys and part of the reason we are where we are. A raise is simply that, getting paid more to do exactly what you already are.

The F/O ratio will bite you later when you go to fix it. If you look at the costing now versus three years from now when you have staffed and actually may have 5 year F/Os the raise becomes much more expensive which means you will give up extra bargaining elsewhere. If the company tells you don't worry about the F/ O scale because we want you to upgrade so you won't be there... Perfect time then to raise the F/O scale now as it is meaningless anyway. If no-one works through that pay scale then it doesn't cost you anything to raise it to a proper ratio.

Pension contribution should be higher... Period. Look up compounding interest. If you upgrade after two years, and are young...time is your best friend for retirement.

Don't let the company tell you that an upgrade is a raise. It's super exciting for you guys and I think the opportunity is fantastic to take advantage of, however it is a different position... Not a raise. It also cannot be everyone's future. Some people will not pass the upgrade, some people will get hired with low time and need to spend many years to get an upgrade, once all 50 find are in Canada, it will be impossible to upgrade everyone in two years without indefinite growth, or people dying, and or leaving. It's selfish to think your opportunity will be everyone else's.

Canadian pilots have been bad at helping each other. I'm hopeful things are turning a corner. I don't call Flair a disrupter, or think any I'll will towards people there. If they paid you guys and gals what you are worth I hope flair lasts forever. Just remember though that pilots wages on average cost about 7 percent of operating costs in the States. I know Canadian pilots come in much less. If you think your raise is bad for business you are wrong. I want to see Lynx, Porter, Flair all start killing it and as they say rising tides raise all ships.

Best of luck peeps

[nowind]

ULCC is just a brand strategy. Its still the same product, same market, same plane and SAME JOB! This TA will affect the whole industry so please vote wisely. Why would you accept anything less than WJ? Fixing the FO scale and getting YOS are bare minimums. If you match WJ, swoop payscale will most likely disapear and rouge will stay on mainline rules, otherwise who knows how its gonna play. You have more power than you think, we need to stick together and rise higher.

Please vote No, hold the line!

[Canadaflyer46]

Stop comparing to the US. It makes ZERO difference to an arbitrator. Is it interesting and something to strive towards? of course. Poor Canada is a laggard in just about every business and at every level of pay and compensation. Doctors, Lawyers, Same. Welcome to socialist Canada.

It IS a step in the right direction and only a 3 year deal. As for FOs, they have very few senior FOs and that means more than 3 years. Its virtually a brand new company post covid. The time to command is about the quickest in the business right now. So you're a new FO with 2000-3000K hrs and get to fly a brand new 737. Make roughly 75K and likely get to 100K with some extra work. Upgrade in a short amount of time. Live in your base and home pretty much every night with the vast majority of flying during the day. Whats the problem again? Haters gonna hate.
Be happy.

It’s this idiot mentality that people have in Canada that has held this industry back. STOP it. Ask for better — better yet you have this one chance to fight for it.

It’s people like the above that have been bottom barrel of the industry taking anything they can get to get into a flying job. It’s time to call out this bullshit. Pilots in Canada made 75k long ago and the housing market was affordable. 75k as a pilot with the carrot of quick upgrade. You know where to put that carrot.

150k to start as a 737 skipper is disgraceful still. No YOS?? You’re kidding me. Look at AC payscales long ago. It’s this settling mentality that holds us all back.

You won’t get US wages but you aren’t worth less than 50% of the value of a US pilot. Wake the fu%# up.

Huge +1.

[daedalusx]

Agreed but then again, look at the precedents set by Swoop, Sunwing, Jazz, etc.

It’s a hard sell to get 180k for Capt and 90k+ for FOs when Sunwing or Swoop is around 115/62.
I think they should have gone for a metoo clause in case WJ is able to get some good gains on their negos because ultimately they will have more leverage in the round of negotiations than the Flair membership.

[flyinhigh]

So main question is, where is the trip and duty rigs?

There is no mention what so ever in the presentation. If there is none, why the fack would you vote on this? That alone is a game changer when it comes to life style.

Increasing MMG to 85 hours is not a raise when you actually work that. Having OT kick in at 90 hours is utter horse manure. To work that, you are working alot of days.

To the guy that keeps saying you can make 100k with a couple days of OT. Give you're head a shake. You can do that at every company.

[fruz]

Flair isn't going to shit down if pilots vote no to this. Let's be clear.

In the US, even the LCC's made gains. Why are Canadian LCC's willing to accept less? Why are we even using the argument "well this is a different type of company than AC or WS". Is this carrier willing to shut things down because you guys want more money? Probably not.

This is the best time to make gains for yourselves. Accepting subpar gains now will inhibit your ability to make more gains when the industry isn't as ripe as it is now. You'll never have this position again. Don't waste it.

[Apestogetherstrong]

Vote NO!FIGHT FOR $89,000 FO salary. Also ensure there is a me too clause for FO/CPT salary. Flair should ensure FO’s are paid 20% more than WJ.

[strengthinumbers]

Rumours coming out that a deal is to be introduced to Sunwing pilots this weekend or early next week.

Curious to see how their deal compares to Flair.

When is your vote, will you guys be able to see this potential deal before yours closes?

[ant_321]

Rumours coming out that a deal is to be introduced to Sunwing pilots this weekend or early next week.

Curious to see how their deal compares to Flair.

When is your vote, will you guys be able to see this potential deal before yours closes?

From PCC

BREAKING -

PCC INSIDER NEWS

PCC INSIDER has learned from that Sunwing Airlines MEC will release a proposed LOU announcement shortly outlining the following progress between the airline and its Pilot Group.

New Pay for Sunwing Pilots is rumored to be WJA Pilot Pay rates plus 2.5 %. This would constitue an increase of 30 Million dollars to the contract.

The Union, in return, has dropped certain outstanding grievances.

This development could place Sunwing Pilots as the Top Paid 737 Pilot in Canada.

PCC INSIDER
NEWS / INSIGHT / TIPS

PILOT CAREER CENTER

[Apestogetherstrong]

Rumored to be SW LOU. This puts Flair to shame. It beats Flair FO yr 2. Another reason to VOTE NO! Besides pilots took a risk coming to Flair. With high risk there should be higher reward. Pretty sure WJ new contract is going to beat Flair too.

[RobertChow]

Rumored to be SW LOU. This puts Flair to shame. It beats Flair FO yr 2. Another reason to VOTE NO! Besides pilots took a risk coming to Flair. With high risk there should be higher reward. Pretty sure WJ new contract is going to beat Flair too.

Well your rumour for the 89k at Flair was wrong. I’ll take what you say with half a grain of salt.

[Apestogetherstrong]

Rumored to be SW LOU. This puts Flair to shame. It beats Flair FO yr 2. Another reason to VOTE NO! Besides pilots took a risk coming to Flair. With high risk there should be higher reward. Pretty sure WJ new contract is going to beat Flair too.

Well your rumour for the 89k at Flair was wrong. I’ll take what you say with half a grain of salt.

Thats why its called a “rumour”.

[RobertChow]

Rumored to be SW LOU. This puts Flair to shame. It beats Flair FO yr 2. Another reason to VOTE NO! Besides pilots took a risk coming to Flair. With high risk there should be higher reward. Pretty sure WJ new contract is going to beat Flair too.

Well your rumour for the 89k at Flair was wrong. I’ll take what you say with half a grain of salt.

Thats why its called a “rumour”.

No shit. How about you post when you know.

[Apestogetherstrong]

Well your rumour for the 89k at Flair was wrong. I’ll take what you say with half a grain of salt.

Thats why its called a “rumour”.

No shit. How about you post when you know.

How about you start respecting yourself and ask for better wages and working conditions!!!

[Apestogetherstrong]

Canadian pilots are paid way less than other countries. Whether its US, Europe, Middle East or Asia. Now is the time to fight for better contracts. Now is the time to fight for better wages. Stop bringing each other down. Raise your voice and express your opinions to your managers, reps etc. the biggest lesson we can learn from US is that their pilots respect each other regardless of whos uniform you are wearing (Delta, AA, SW, JB, United or whichever). However we look down upon each other.
Just look at the paystub and tell me at what step pay we will make this kind of money in Flair

[Tdicommuter]

I just had a conversation with a friend in south Africa who is looking at coming over to work for flair. He is being told they would like to hire 80 DEC. To the people who think they don't need to worry about the first officer pay scale because it won't apply I would be super cautious. That many DECs will stop all upgrades for a long time. Maybe you should ask your management what that training plan actually looks like.

Again this is not me being negative or nah saying flair, more concern for people who may get screwed and not see it coming.

[Alpha6600]

Some more charts for reference ...

PHOTO-2022-12-05-22-19-54.jpg (99.56 KiB) Viewed 3717 times

PHOTO-2022-12-05-22-19-53.jpg (107.14 KiB) Viewed 3717 times

Looks like a no to me!

Transat parity or bust.

[daedalusx]

Don’t get too excited about the upcoming Sunwing TA ... it wont match AT.

[pacman007]

While I agree those wages are poor, not every airline gets a bailout yearly!
https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/montreal/ ... 0.amp.html

[MaxAuto]

Don’t get too excited about the upcoming Sunwing TA ... it wont match AT.

AT rates are a wide body narrow body mix rate. A321 also have more seats than a 737-800.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Rumored to be SW LOU. This puts Flair to shame. It beats Flair FO yr 2. Another reason to VOTE NO! Besides pilots took a risk coming to Flair. With high risk there should be higher reward. Pretty sure WJ new contract is going to beat Flair too.

This new proposed SWG payscale doesn't make sense to me. 75 MMG (as per the table) X 12 months = 900 annual hours.

A year 1 Captain making $162.41 per hour X 900 hours = $146,169 (not $151,854 as indicated in the table).

And, the F/O rates look like they approximate 1000 annual hours (Year 1 F/O $66.54/hour = $66,543 annual salary).

Am I missing something?

[tbaylx]

I just had a conversation with a friend in south Africa who is looking at coming over to work for flair. He is being told they would like to hire 80 DEC. To the people who think they don't need to worry about the first officer pay scale because it won't apply I would be super cautious. That many DECs will stop all upgrades for a long time. Maybe you should ask your management what that training plan actually looks like.

Again this is not me being negative or nah saying flair, more concern for people who may get screwed and not see it coming.

Your friend is badly misinformed. I heard from a friend in India that Flair will soon be flying single pilot operations with only FOs and they won’t need any captains!