Be Ready

[Loon-A-Tic]

Look at the picture I attached (not the one from MH). And I personally know 2 of them, you can take my word for it but one of them was actually a nationally elected ACPA (P4C) guy until recently.
Must be your memory then… That’s okay, mine isn’t what it used to be either, I woke up this morning not knowing where I was

I hear ya, my memory fails me more times than I can remember and that's on my "good" days.

[Dash.Trash]

They are not Canadian, look like Delta pilots to me. All ask it another way, when has a Canadian pilot group refused to cross another Canadian picket line in support of a strike mandate ?

Here you go… these are Air Canada pilots. I personally know a couple on this picture. It was only 5 years ago and the WestJet pilots were well aware of their brothers/sisters support. Either you’re too new to remember or have a short memory. Cheers.

So what tells you they are AC, at least the other guys are wearing their uniform in solidarity. I don't see an "identifying" feature on any of your AC pilots. By the way, if young is 35 years of Canadian commercial aviation it must be my memory I guess.

They are literally wearing ACPA lanyards. FOM policy prohibits wearing any company identifying uniform pieces outside of work without management approval, so a union lanyard is not only appropriate in this case, but pretty much all they can use without getting into trouble. Not sure why you’re so concerned with what uniform pieces people are wearing or not wearing. Fact is they were there, standing in solidarity, and will be this time around too, hopefully this time with some new ALPA lanyards.

[truecolours]

I think we are at a tipping point in the industry in regards to fares in this country. Similar to the bag fee decision, everyone wants to do it, but no one want's to be the first to do it. Once one goes, the others will follow.

It is easy to get an idea of what is going on south of the border because the airlines are mostly public. We don't have that luxury up here. All we know is that AC and AT are losing money, and the others are mostly private.

We know that WJ (according to HT prior to his retirement) that we are still not making money but are losing a little less than AC. Whatever that means in non-numeric talk.

Flair - I don't know and I don't think anyone knows. They have an interesting structure. It still reminds me a bit of Jetsgo. Rapid expansion using future sales to cover current expenses.

Lynx - Again - don't know. But their fleet utilization seems pretty low. Those new assets with high reliability are not meant to sit around all day.

Air fares have been (for the most part) inflation proof over the last decade or so, and airlines have managed to squeeze savings everywhere they can as costs increase. The only place to look now is revenue generation.

I can't speak for the others, but I know our flights are packed. Yes, I know a full flight does not mean profit but the fact we have this huge supply side increase, people are still filling seats mean there is room for price movement. Someone just needs to bite the bullet and act first (like the bag fee). The others will follow. We can't have every carrier in Canada losing money indefinitely.

[aerobod]

I think we are at a tipping point in the industry in regards to fares in this country. Similar to the bag fee decision, everyone wants to do it, but no one want's to be the first to do it. Once one goes, the others will follow.

It is easy to get an idea of what is going on south of the border because the airlines are mostly public. We don't have that luxury up here. All we know is that AC and AT are losing money, and the others are mostly private.

We know that WJ (according to HT prior to his retirement) that we are still not making money but are losing a little less than AC. Whatever the means in non-numeric talk.

Flair - I don't know and I don't think anyone knows. They have an interesting structure. It still reminds me a bit of Jetsgo. Rapid expansion using future sales to cover current expenses.

Lynx - Again - don't know. But their fleet utilization seems pretty low. Those new assets with high reliability are not meant to sit around all day.

Air fares have been (for the most part) inflation proof over the last decade or so, and airlines have managed to squeeze savings everywhere they can as costs increase. The only place to look now is revenue generation.

I can't speak for the others, but I know our flights are packed. Yes, I know a full flight does not mean profit but the fact we have this huge supply side increase, people are still filling seats mean there is room for price movement. Someone just needs to bite the bullet and act first (like the bag fee). The others will follow. We can't have every carrier in Canada losing money indefinitely.

I think a 20% fare increase (in addition to inflation) across the board would solve a lot of issues, but there will be an over capacity over the next 2 years if that increase reduces demand. There will have to be a capacity shake out one way or another (bearing in mind all the future deliveries Canadian airlines are planning) to sustain fares at a viable level for airline profitability.

The startups are definitely in a potentially interesting and quite likely precarious financial situation, an economic downturn and inability for ticket prices to increase could bankrupt a couple of them, this would probably ease pressure on WS, but WS flexibility is going to be limited by Onex related decisions that may affect capital available.

[Mostly Harmless]

Covid changed a lot, messed up the previous direction, allowed the ULCCs to gain a strong foothold. I think WS may have been able to follow the JetBlue evolution without Covid, now they have cost and revenue challenges that are not nearly as controlled as before due to the nature of the current labour market for all employees and the accumulated debt from lack of operations during Covid shutdowns, but without the relief from fixed costs. Fortunes can change very quickly, I think WS and the pre-Covid strategy had a decent future, now I think it is uncertain. I encourage others to bring forward their whole analysis of the company’s financial position, as opposed to just looking at specific points in isolation.

I’m glad (as I’m sure are many others) that the Onex deal crystallized my substantial (for me) share holdings, if Covid had hit 3 months earlier, Onex may not have completed the deal, I couldn’t see myself holding WS shares at the moment, if it was still publicly traded.

I agree. But none of those decisions were made by the employees. The point I'm trying to drive home (not doing a good job at it apparently) is that; the company asking the employees to take one for the team after horrible decisions were made at the top echelons just isn't going to work. Especially given the high pay, golden parachutes and revolving door of executives.

I too was very glad of the Onex buyout and the money I made (instead of the losses it could have been) but, it was a one time win.

[averageatbest]

So what tells you they are AC, at least the other guys are wearing their uniform in solidarity. I don't see an "identifying" feature on any of your AC pilots. By the way, if young is 35 years of Canadian commercial aviation it must be my memory I guess.

Skyhighh posted a picture of Air Canada pilots wearing ACPA lanyards thirty minutes before you posted your reply.

[aerobod]

Covid changed a lot, messed up the previous direction, allowed the ULCCs to gain a strong foothold. I think WS may have been able to follow the JetBlue evolution without Covid, now they have cost and revenue challenges that are not nearly as controlled as before due to the nature of the current labour market for all employees and the accumulated debt from lack of operations during Covid shutdowns, but without the relief from fixed costs. Fortunes can change very quickly, I think WS and the pre-Covid strategy had a decent future, now I think it is uncertain. I encourage others to bring forward their whole analysis of the company’s financial position, as opposed to just looking at specific points in isolation.

I’m glad (as I’m sure are many others) that the Onex deal crystallized my substantial (for me) share holdings, if Covid had hit 3 months earlier, Onex may not have completed the deal, I couldn’t see myself holding WS shares at the moment, if it was still publicly traded.

I agree. But none of those decisions were made by the employees. The point I'm trying to drive home (not doing a good job at it apparently) is that; the company asking the employees to take one for the team after horrible decisions were made at the top echelons just isn't going to work. Especially given the high pay, golden parachutes and revolving door of executives.

I too was very glad of the Onex buyout and the money I made (instead of the losses it could have been) but, it was a one time win.

I know it sucks that the company is asking for a ‘take one for the team’ approach, I’ve been there before at WS, but I don’t think the current exec has much choice with Onex having significant input and likely concern over viability of their investment in WS overall. I think there have been both good and bad decisions at the exec suite over the years and it is still a mixed bag, but current circumstances have been shaped beyond their control from a Covid and ULCC perspective. The current situation just is what it is.

As has been the case in the Canadian industry over the years and 80 or so airline bankruptcies, in times when profitability is elusive the often used phrase is “he with the lowest cost wins”. I see a lot of parallels in the evolution phase of Canadian Airlines and where WS is now, I was actually doing contract IT work for AC / Canadian during the merger back in 1999.

[co-joe]

I still think scope clause is your biggest hurdle. As long as the company can replace you at a lower wage, you have limited/no bargaining power. You need all WestJet flying to be done by WestJet pilots under one WestJet OC full stop. For what it's worth lots of pilots who wear green polka dot ties to work support you, and will walk the line beside you, if it comes to that.

[averageatbest]

I know it sucks that the company is asking for a ‘take one for the team’ approach, I’ve been there before at WS, but I don’t think the current exec has much choice with Onex having significant input and likely concern over viability of their investment in WS overall. I think there have been both good and bad decisions at the exec suite over the years and it is still a mixed bag, but current circumstances have been shaped beyond their control from a Covid and ULCC perspective. The current situation just is what it is.

As has been the case in the Canadian industry over the years and 80 or so airline bankruptcies, in times when profitability is elusive the often used phrase is “he with the lowest cost wins”. I see a lot of parallels in the evolution phase of Canadian Airlines and where WS is now, I was actually doing contract IT work for AC / Canadian during the merger back in 1999.

We "took one for the team" during COVID when we took a pay cut to reduce layoffs. Now it's time for the company to take one for the team.

Our "execs" are being pushed into a corner. There are two options for Onex:

1. Give in. (Pay up)
2. Go nuclear. (Shut down)

[lostaviator]

I know it sucks that the company is asking for a ‘take one for the team’ approach, I’ve been there before at WS, but I don’t think the current exec has much choice with Onex having significant input and likely concern over viability of their investment in WS overall. I think there have been both good and bad decisions at the exec suite over the years and it is still a mixed bag, but current circumstances have been shaped beyond their control from a Covid and ULCC perspective. The current situation just is what it is.

As has been the case in the Canadian industry over the years and 80 or so airline bankruptcies, in times when profitability is elusive the often used phrase is “he with the lowest cost wins”. I see a lot of parallels in the evolution phase of Canadian Airlines and where WS is now, I was actually doing contract IT work for AC / Canadian during the merger back in 1999.

We "took one for the team" during COVID when we took a pay cut to reduce layoffs. Now it's time for the company to take one for the team.

Our "execs" are being pushed into a corner. There are two options for Onex:

1. Give in. (Pay up)
2. Go nuclear. (Shut down)

100%. And as scary as the second outcome sounds, I’ve made peace with it. Everyone go take a look at Flairs pay scale on their webpage. If the ULCC’s are paying more than (whatever we are), then I’m ok with starting over. I might fall behind a year or two, but sure beats being out 3.5 billion like someone else will be!

[fish4life]

All those number assume AC won’t raise pay… I’m pretty sure AC pilots won’t accept anything less than whatever the Westjet pilots get in their contract.

[accountant]

What’s the longest airline strike in the history of the world? I have never heard of an airline strike lasting longer then a few days.

Ask AC, Canadian and their predecessor companies what strikes were like in the 80's.

[Spare007]

Thanks brother! This certainly can be a dirty thing doing one’s duty… However, occasionally (yes occasionally), we can all agree to stand for the profession. We been fighting the same fight long before now. Been putting up with low ball, low class twits who would pay for their flying and set a horrible course for this career..

It’s a great profession. Never paid a nickel for training and took my lead from senior pilots all my career. What’s insulting is these low morale people talk like they’re giants in a valley where those of us know their ‘swagger’. They make me laugh, they think we know not who they are, however, the real drivers know these dirtbags. They’re the ones who put us on this shit course in a shit storm.

Long before green was a thang.

[Crewbunk]

Ask AC, Canadian and their predecessor companies what strikes were like in the 80's.

The only Canadian Airlines predecessor company which struck was Eastern Provincial Airways. And, as I said above, it lasted 33 days, in 1983. The next pilot strike which actually occurred was Air Canada in 1998, lasting 13 days.

[Mostly Harmless]

We "took one for the team" during COVID when we took a pay cut to reduce layoffs. Now it's time for the company to take one for the team.

Our "execs" are being pushed into a corner. There are two options for Onex:

1. Give in. (Pay up)
2. Go nuclear. (Shut down)

Exactly.

I am taking my cue directly from the executives themselves. They never take pay cuts or return bonuses because they are too large. I refuse to feel guilty about asking to be paid an absolutely handsome sum of money. That's my job as the employee. I am not going to negotiate for the employer... they pay people for that job. (By all appearances, some of them on this very website.)

[accountant]

Ask AC, Canadian and their predecessor companies what strikes were like in the 80's.

The only Canadian Airlines predecessor company which struck was Eastern Provincial Airways. And, as I said above, it lasted 33 days, in 1983. The next pilot strike which actually occurred was Air Canada in 1998, lasting 13 days.

There were numerous FA and ground crew strikes if I recall that caused enough turmoil. My family was a part of a bunch of them.

Yes you need pilots to fly the planes but the various crew pieces can cause havoc for everyone else. Any segment striking will give you grief

[cdnavater]

Ask AC, Canadian and their predecessor companies what strikes were like in the 80's.

The only Canadian Airlines predecessor company which struck was Eastern Provincial Airways. And, as I said above, it lasted 33 days, in 1983. The next pilot strike which actually occurred was Air Canada in 1998, lasting 13 days.

There were numerous FA and ground crew strikes if I recall that caused enough turmoil. My family was a part of a bunch of them.

Yes you need pilots to fly the planes but the various crew pieces can cause havoc for everyone else. Any segment striking will give you grief

Same argument used by every manager in history, there is a difference between havoc and airplanes not moving. You could pump through a class of forty FAs every five days if you wanted to, you could contract ground crews and half of them would be new hires from the pool of striking workers but what is the training compacity for pilots, on a good year maybe 500 new hire courses, either way they would be parked long term.
And good luck finding enough willing to cross that line!
Good luck WJ pilots, give ‘em hell!

[RippleRock]

We've got MM, our former complete loser of an ACPA MEC Chair beeking off on our forum about how ALPA is a "loser at bargaining" for you guys.

Your problem stems from ACPA's "zero sum" horse-trade bargaining strategy has sat a "National Standard" for crap negotiating and bargaining in bad faith for our Members for nearly 20 years, and GS knows it.

Hold your ground hard, we'll be right behind you. Time to turn both ships hard about.

[Loon-A-Tic]

It's time to get every Canadian 705 carrier under the same union banner, then go for the jugular.

[RVR6000]

We've got MM, our former complete loser of an ACPA MEC Chair beeking off on our forum about how ALPA is a "loser at bargaining" for you guys.

Your problem stems from ACPA's "zero sum" horse-trade bargaining strategy has sat a "National Standard" for crap negotiating and bargaining in bad faith for our Members for nearly 20 years, and GS knows it.

Hold your ground hard, we'll be right behind you. Time to turn both ships hard about.

Let’s not forget our former MEC and Negot chair KV now working as an external consultant for Westjet. It’s pathetic to see his brother come on the forum time to time with his anti-ALPA spiel.

Zero integrity, self-serving group we’ve been electing for the past 10 years.

[dumpsterfire]

ACPA's history of ineptitude & failed leadership is on full display on the AC forum

We got a former MEC Chair gaslighting the formalized process of unifying the two largest pilot groups in Canada while another former MEC Chair negotiates against our brother & sisters at WJ while the brother of this Chair attempts to bring up red herrings in the past to produce a fear narrative

One might be like, why is this post on a WestJet thread but it is now time pilots to come together and raise the embarrassing standards of this profession in this great country

It is time to put the Dumpsterfire of Canadian Aviation out

[Anonymouse]

Good lord I hope this is Canadian pilots finally waking up.

Westjet pilots, we're all behind you. We will walk the line with you. You deserve better. We all do. This country has a history of MEC's that seem to be more scared of management than they are their own pilots. We've seen it at AC, seen it with that trash contract at flair, and we've seen it for decades at WJ. Sounds like you have an MEC that finally sees the big picture now.

Every other developed country can afford to pay pilots well. Canada needs to catch up. I'm ready to drive to Calgary, throw on my uniform and picket with you guys.

[Mostly Harmless]

For 40+ years, there has been a surplus of labour in Canada. A never ending supply of pilots wanting to work and not nearly enough jobs for all of us. This has been fantastic for the companies and the people who run those companies. They have had 40+ years of power to keep compensation low, and falling because of the power imbalance between the employer and the employee. Many on here have espoused "The Market" as the reason for low wages in Canada. You will note thier silence is deafening now that the balance of labour available and jobs available has shifted dramatically in a very short period of time. No comments on how "The Market" should rightly be putting massive upward pressure on wages.

The companies have enjoyed 40+ years of power. As is often pointed out with recessions and interest rates, you have generations who have never known an environment like this labour market. The companies and those who run them will have to be dragged, kicking and screaming the whole way, into the new reality of the employee, employer power relationship. They will not go willingly or even intelligently towards what is inevitable. We have a duty to show them that it is a new day, a new world, a new life for them.. and for us.

[RippleRock]

We've got MM, our former complete loser of an ACPA MEC Chair beeking off on our forum about how ALPA is a "loser at bargaining" for you guys.

Your problem stems from ACPA's "zero sum" horse-trade bargaining strategy has sat a "National Standard" for crap negotiating and bargaining in bad faith for our Members for nearly 20 years, and GS knows it.

Hold your ground hard, we'll be right behind you. Time to turn both ships hard about.

Let’s not forget our former MEC and Negot chair KV now working as an external consultant for Westjet. It’s pathetic to see his brother come on the forum time to time with his anti-ALPA spiel.

Zero integrity, self-serving group we’ve been electing for the past 10 years.

I've always wondered why individuals like KV and our most recent failure have so willingly and forcefully at times, insisted on dragging our WACON into the basement and now working with WJ to do the same. There must have been some form of incentive. It makes zero sense otherwise.

I know for a fact that one had a side business that had a service package that they were attempting to peddle to Big Red. Perhaps dragging us into the mud would make this former Chair look more attractive to the big boys at HQ. We'll never know for certain, but rest assured, there was potentially some serious personal gain in it for both these individuals.

It was blatant and intentional. Our governance was attrocious. Treasonous is the only word I can find.

[Mac08]

Just read Aerobods posts on other forums. The guy is a management (IT of all things) shill… no point in wasting your time. Pilots deserve minimum wage and nothing more according to him so that the company can prosper with shareholder/management profits.