Is this the first AIP to not be in the benefit of the company?

[cdnavater]

[quote=RippleRock post_id=<a href="tel:1246649">1246649</a> time=<a href="tel:1679458701">1679458701</a> user_id=72447]
[quote=Sharklasers post_id=<a href="tel:1246557">1246557</a> time=<a href="tel:1679418772">1679418772</a> user_id=53543]
[quote=thepoors post_id=<a href="tel:1246547">1246547</a> time=<a href="tel:1679415340">1679415340</a> user_id=82965]


Jfc... if this is the kind of delusion we're dealing with, things are only going to get worse.


When are you going to realize the biggest turd in the toilet is still a piece of shit. AC compensation is garbage. And it's that way because you, as an ACPA member, allowed it to become so. It has nothing to do with other carriers. Who is "holding you down" other than your own management? If you hold Big Red in such high regard then maybe stop allowing Swoop comparable wages for new hires and benchmark Delta and American instead.

Show me on the doll where ACPA touched you…..

We didn’t choose to use our domestic competitors as comparators so take it up with the government appointed arbitrators.

As a new hire Jazz pilot I realize that you were likely a child during FOS and therefore have 0 frame of reference for how we ended up here.

Maybe if the pilots at our domestic competitors weren’t always so willing to work for discount we would
Have someone to pattern off of.

Stop blaming ACPA for your unions failures.

That's rich SL. There were monkeys at the helm in the late 00's and throughout the teens. The SS ACPA was certain to go aground. I watched. These dopes were just smart enough to get us in real trouble, but far too dumb to get us out. The Group of 27 were traitors one and all. They were out to "save us from ourselves". What a joke, what a legacy.

I remember one of them saying in early 2011 that the contract is "too thick and complicated".....never once wondering why. TA1 was an abomination that NEVER should have seen the light of day. FOS was the completely avoidable result. Anyone involved should be ashamed.

Gary Tarves said that the old "SS ACPA" was a heavily patched vessel, but it didn't leak. The abomination that was TA1 was the brainchild of utter incompetence. We were set back three decades. The contract looked like it was shelled and torpedoed at close range there were so many bloody holes.

Not once did the negotiators let the Membership in on the travesty that was about to unfold. Ya, I was there, and I blame ACPA 1000%. They are the definition of failure. How they lasted this long blows my mind.

BTW, good work insulting the new hires. So typical. They deserve better than you and Kaffee.
[/quote]

I’m not insulting new hires. He is literally a newly hired Jazz pilot. ACPA is not responsible for the state of Jazz pilots affairs, that’s firmly on Claude’s shoulders.

The idea that the monolith of ACPA is fully responsible for our current situation in a vacuum and ALPA is the solution to all our problems is nonsense to me. When you tell the FOS story you conveniently leave out the part where we elected a bunch of fist banging hardliners who were impossible to bargain with in good faith that walked us straight into the worst possible arbitration outcome despite the begging insistence of very expensive advisors and outside council to change course. But one pilot one vote and I’ll be happy to be proven wrong in a couple years time.
Cheers.
[/quote][/quote]


I’m sorry, what is it exactly that Claude has done to place the blame on him?
Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t call myself a Claude fan but I certainly don’t lay the blame at his feet.
You either have a short memory or no clue what you’re talking about, circa 2010 Jazz was the best paid and best working conditions of any NA regional and even compared worldwide was at the top of the list if not the top. We voted to strike, 98% vote, 97% percent in favour. Our reward, now bear with me because this pisses me off to this day and I’m trying real hard not to fucken swear, oops, oh well. You(ACPA) pilots gave in on scope which prevented anybody but Jazz from CPA work, which lead to SR’s first five Q400s and the downhill slide has been continuous. We are now in a position that we are the only one again but can’t staff it because, you guessed it, to compete for the work we had to lower the bar so far nobody wants to work for Jazz, thanks for all you’ve done for the profession!
One of the carrots was lowering our priority for pass travel, you petty fucken, oops sorry, I need my happy place.
We need to move on and forget, which is difficult when you refuse to accept your huge part in our problems, I’m really trying and hope we can collaborate to improve our collective position. I believe Claude has made strides in that area, working with ACPA but your, not my fault, attitude is not going to help anyone but management.
They want us fighting, they wants us willing to lower the bar to capture or keep the work and I guarantee if they came you with, we want to shutter Jazz but you’ll have to fly the 220 for CRJ wages, some of you would vote yes, thankfully you are the minority!
Go ALPA

[Sharklasers]

[quote=RippleRock post_id=<a href="tel:1246649">1246649</a> time=<a href="tel:1679458701">1679458701</a> user_id=72447]
[quote=Sharklasers post_id=<a href="tel:1246557">1246557</a> time=<a href="tel:1679418772">1679418772</a> user_id=53543]
[quote=thepoors post_id=<a href="tel:1246547">1246547</a> time=<a href="tel:1679415340">1679415340</a> user_id=82965]


Jfc... if this is the kind of delusion we're dealing with, things are only going to get worse.


When are you going to realize the biggest turd in the toilet is still a piece of shit. AC compensation is garbage. And it's that way because you, as an ACPA member, allowed it to become so. It has nothing to do with other carriers. Who is "holding you down" other than your own management? If you hold Big Red in such high regard then maybe stop allowing Swoop comparable wages for new hires and benchmark Delta and American instead.

Show me on the doll where ACPA touched you…..

We didn’t choose to use our domestic competitors as comparators so take it up with the government appointed arbitrators.

As a new hire Jazz pilot I realize that you were likely a child during FOS and therefore have 0 frame of reference for how we ended up here.

Maybe if the pilots at our domestic competitors weren’t always so willing to work for discount we would
Have someone to pattern off of.

Stop blaming ACPA for your unions failures.

That's rich SL. There were monkeys at the helm in the late 00's and throughout the teens. The SS ACPA was certain to go aground. I watched. These dopes were just smart enough to get us in real trouble, but far too dumb to get us out. The Group of 27 were traitors one and all. They were out to "save us from ourselves". What a joke, what a legacy.

I remember one of them saying in early 2011 that the contract is "too thick and complicated".....never once wondering why. TA1 was an abomination that NEVER should have seen the light of day. FOS was the completely avoidable result. Anyone involved should be ashamed.

Gary Tarves said that the old "SS ACPA" was a heavily patched vessel, but it didn't leak. The abomination that was TA1 was the brainchild of utter incompetence. We were set back three decades. The contract looked like it was shelled and torpedoed at close range there were so many bloody holes.

Not once did the negotiators let the Membership in on the travesty that was about to unfold. Ya, I was there, and I blame ACPA 1000%. They are the definition of failure. How they lasted this long blows my mind.

BTW, good work insulting the new hires. So typical. They deserve better than you and Kaffee.

I’m not insulting new hires. He is literally a newly hired Jazz pilot. ACPA is not responsible for the state of Jazz pilots affairs, that’s firmly on Claude’s shoulders.

The idea that the monolith of ACPA is fully responsible for our current situation in a vacuum and ALPA is the solution to all our problems is nonsense to me. When you tell the FOS story you conveniently leave out the part where we elected a bunch of fist banging hardliners who were impossible to bargain with in good faith that walked us straight into the worst possible arbitration outcome despite the begging insistence of very expensive advisors and outside council to change course. But one pilot one vote and I’ll be happy to be proven wrong in a couple years time.
Cheers.
[/quote][/quote]


I’m sorry, what is it exactly that Claude has done to place the blame on him?
Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t call myself a Claude fan but I certainly don’t lay the blame at his feet.
You either have a short memory or no clue what you’re talking about, circa 2010 Jazz was the best paid and best working conditions of any NA regional and even compared worldwide was at the top of the list if not the top. We voted to strike, 98% vote, 97% percent in favour. Our reward, now bear with me because this pisses me off to this day and I’m trying real hard not to fucken swear, oops, oh well. You(ACPA) pilots gave in on scope which prevented anybody but Jazz from CPA work, which lead to SR’s first five Q400s and the downhill slide has been continuous. We are now in a position that we are the only one again but can’t staff it because, you guessed it, to compete for the work we had to lower the bar so far nobody wants to work for Jazz, thanks for all you’ve done for the profession!
One of the carrots was lowering our priority for pass travel, you petty fucken, oops sorry, I need my happy place.
We need to move on and forget, which is difficult when you refuse to accept your huge part in our problems, I’m really trying and hope we can collaborate to improve our collective position. I believe Claude has made strides in that area, working with ACPA but your, not my fault, attitude is not going to help anyone but management.
They want us fighting, they wants us willing to lower the bar to capture or keep the work and I guarantee if they came you with, we want to shutter Jazz but you’ll have to fly the 220 for CRJ wages, some of you would vote yes, thankfully you are the minority!
Go ALPA
[/quote]

I wasn’t on property in 2010 but even I know that’s a pretty one sided take.
1.) It’s not the Air Canada pilots place to be negotiating for Jazz pilots
2.) At the time Jazz ALPA was still supporting the AO lawsuit to financially cripple some of our members and slide into the ACPA list DOH.
3.) Jazz pilots at the time were falling over themselves to do ACPA flying at a cut rate ei: the RJs and then the whole Thomas Cook thing which dropped the bar for everyone.
4.) ACPA didn’t make Claude dream up the 17 year deal.

[cdnavater]

Show me on the doll where ACPA touched you…..

We didn’t choose to use our domestic competitors as comparators so take it up with the government appointed arbitrators.

As a new hire Jazz pilot I realize that you were likely a child during FOS and therefore have 0 frame of reference for how we ended up here.

Maybe if the pilots at our domestic competitors weren’t always so willing to work for discount we would
Have someone to pattern off of.

Stop blaming ACPA for your unions failures.

That's rich SL. There were monkeys at the helm in the late 00's and throughout the teens. The SS ACPA was certain to go aground. I watched. These dopes were just smart enough to get us in real trouble, but far too dumb to get us out. The Group of 27 were traitors one and all. They were out to "save us from ourselves". What a joke, what a legacy.

I remember one of them saying in early 2011 that the contract is "too thick and complicated".....never once wondering why. TA1 was an abomination that NEVER should have seen the light of day. FOS was the completely avoidable result. Anyone involved should be ashamed.

Gary Tarves said that the old "SS ACPA" was a heavily patched vessel, but it didn't leak. The abomination that was TA1 was the brainchild of utter incompetence. We were set back three decades. The contract looked like it was shelled and torpedoed at close range there were so many bloody holes.

Not once did the negotiators let the Membership in on the travesty that was about to unfold. Ya, I was there, and I blame ACPA 1000%. They are the definition of failure. How they lasted this long blows my mind.

BTW, good work insulting the new hires. So typical. They deserve better than you and Kaffee.

I’m not insulting new hires. He is literally a newly hired Jazz pilot. ACPA is not responsible for the state of Jazz pilots affairs, that’s firmly on Claude’s shoulders.

The idea that the monolith of ACPA is fully responsible for our current situation in a vacuum and ALPA is the solution to all our problems is nonsense to me. When you tell the FOS story you conveniently leave out the part where we elected a bunch of fist banging hardliners who were impossible to bargain with in good faith that walked us straight into the worst possible arbitration outcome despite the begging insistence of very expensive advisors and outside council to change course. But one pilot one vote and I’ll be happy to be proven wrong in a couple years time.
Cheers.

[/quote]


I’m sorry, what is it exactly that Claude has done to place the blame on him?
Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t call myself a Claude fan but I certainly don’t lay the blame at his feet.
You either have a short memory or no clue what you’re talking about, circa 2010 Jazz was the best paid and best working conditions of any NA regional and even compared worldwide was at the top of the list if not the top. We voted to strike, 98% vote, 97% percent in favour. Our reward, now bear with me because this pisses me off to this day and I’m trying real hard not to fucken swear, oops, oh well. You(ACPA) pilots gave in on scope which prevented anybody but Jazz from CPA work, which lead to SR’s first five Q400s and the downhill slide has been continuous. We are now in a position that we are the only one again but can’t staff it because, you guessed it, to compete for the work we had to lower the bar so far nobody wants to work for Jazz, thanks for all you’ve done for the profession!
One of the carrots was lowering our priority for pass travel, you petty fucken, oops sorry, I need my happy place.
We need to move on and forget, which is difficult when you refuse to accept your huge part in our problems, I’m really trying and hope we can collaborate to improve our collective position. I believe Claude has made strides in that area, working with ACPA but your, not my fault, attitude is not going to help anyone but management.
They want us fighting, they wants us willing to lower the bar to capture or keep the work and I guarantee if they came you with, we want to shutter Jazz but you’ll have to fly the 220 for CRJ wages, some of you would vote yes, thankfully you are the minority!
Go ALPA
[/quote]

I wasn’t on property in 2010 but even I know that’s a pretty one sided take.
1.) It’s not the Air Canada pilots place to be negotiating for Jazz pilots
2.) At the time Jazz ALPA was still supporting the AO lawsuit to financially cripple some of our members and slide into the ACPA list DOH.
3.) Jazz pilots at the time were falling over themselves to do ACPA flying at a cut rate ei: the RJs and then the whole Thomas Cook thing which dropped the bar for everyone.
4.) ACPA didn’t make Claude dream up the 17 year deal.
[/quote]

That’s some revisionist stuff there for sure.
1) Correct, but you can’t tie our hands behind our backs and watch us get our asses kicked and say, not my fault!
2) To my knowledge, ALPA never put a cent into that, the AO pilots funded their own class action. Were some ALPA reps ex AO, I’m sure.
3) You mean the RJs that were originally at Jazz that AC pilots took a cut to fly, yes, I agree. Management played us like fiddles didn’t they? As for Thomas Cook, do you think that would have happened if our careers weren’t being threatened constantly, hard to say. Also, it called status pay, look it up. Every single position was paid industry standard plus, then those guys were nice enough to share it with the rest of us.
4)The 17 year deal was a lifeline, we were facing complete obliteration by the competition that was nicely supplied by ACPA, every bitter pill I’ve swallowed was a direct cause by your actions. BTW, we had a 10 year deal that was extended for some peace of mind, reduced competition. I actually breathed a sigh of relief with that deal, knowing I had some job security and didn’t have to start over in my end of career days.

You are currently coming up on your 10 year deal, I truly hope you get some big gains, whether with APLA or ACPA, we should be working together, not against.

[rudder]

The reason the US carriers have higher pay is they one up each other on each contract. Much more difficult to raise the bar when it is AC alone doing the lifting.

huh? Like the cargo MOA, the loss of pension in 2013, etc.

Actually the reason that the pay is higher in the US is because the earnings that each pilot generates is nearly double that of a Canadian pilot.

What does loss of pension have to do with anything? Delta, American, United all lost theirs too.
The substandard Rouge conditions were structured to exactly mimic WestJets and Transat's conditions.

pilot pay is based on company earnings not negotiations? By that logic you are saying Canadian carriers should keep pay lower until they become as profitable?

The best way to raise conditions is for everyone to beat each other every cycle. It's exactly what has happened south of the border over the last decade.

What the US has figured out - and Canada has not - is that pilot costs should be treated as fixed costs not variable costs. No competitive advantage or disadvantage resulting from either beating up or rewarding the pilots at the bargaining table. Level playing field.

There is always hope but it seems that many carriers in Canada are clinging to pilot costs as a fundamental component of their business case.

[Rowdy]

Its threads like this, that showcase how easily AC and CHR management pit us against each other. The easiest way to keep us underpaid and working garbage conditions in toilet water while our compatriots to the south bathe in sweetened condensed milk and lap up raises and consistently better working conditions.

This isn't an ACPA vs ALPA or JAZZ vs AC thing and nor should it be.

It is Pilots vs. Management.

Lets stop stepping on each others toes ok?

[bcflyer]

Its threads like this, that showcase how easily AC and CHR management pit us against each other. The easiest way to keep us underpaid and working garbage conditions in toilet water while our compatriots to the south bathe in sweetened condensed milk and lap up raises and consistently better working conditions.

This isn't an ACPA vs ALPA or JAZZ vs AC thing and nor should it be.

It is Pilots vs. Management.

Lets stop stepping on each others toes ok?

Nice to see someone gets it.

[Mr. North]

+1 Rowdy, hope you're doing good buddy.

Gotta call out the company shills and management wannabes when you see them! Holding the rest of us back. Screw'm!