Malfunction wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:14 pm
If all this negotiations ends in a flop Claude needs to step down
Not sure what anyone would have done differently in his place. But I think it is becoming clear nothing is going to happen. Hence the stampede for the exits.
Anyone know when the next WJ ground school is. Two weeks before that date should be a good indicator of what is going to happen.
This MEC and this Negotiating Committee need to accept their part in where Jazz finds itself today. They are, for the most part, the authors of the train wreck CBA that is crippling hiring and retention at Jazz.
This deal, which had its roots in 2015, was supposed to create stability, job security, and career progression.
How is that all working out now?
This MEC said “the pay will fix itself”.
How is that working out now?
Part of strategic planning is to avoid worst case outcomes. Right now, hundreds of Jazz pilots are being disadvantaged in the AC hiring sequence and AC is still looking at ‘workarounds’ for Express flying that Jazz is incapable of staffing.
Were either of these developments anticipated? Could they have been mitigated? Is it acceptable to just throw up your hands and say “it’s not our fault”.
In bargaining, it certainly helps if you are brighter than your counterparty. But if you are not brighter, then at least you should be better prepared. Preparation includes identifying paths that point away from the abyss.
Maybe we will all be surprised and see a rabbit pulled out of the hat. But in reality the damage is already done. Now seemingly all the MEC can do is triage.
The pilot supply chain shortfall has created bargaining leverage at most properties. But if the employer will not acknowledge the problem it must be a very one-sided conversation.
And who votes in these contracts? The pilot group. I voted no in 2019, because I knew the flow was BS and AC would ignore it when ever it suited them, and we would have no recourse. I so felt Gorgian was a gong show and was on the verge of failing anyways.
truedude wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 8:30 am
How did you vote Rudder?
What needs to happen is an end to ‘vote for your life’ TA’s. Or perhaps that is the very nature of the CPA segment of the industry.
On 2 occasions, Jazz pilots have given away DOH positions absent a declared merger. In both cases, AC benefited and CHR benefitted. In both cases there was a quid pro quo. And now in 2023, it looks like Jazz pilots may be stuck with the ‘quid’ while honouring the ‘quo’ has become discretionary.
I have no idea if a mid-term TA will be reached. Or perhaps there will just be a series of bad news announcements (PAL as a new Express carrier is not a good news announcement).
A superior pilot uses their superior judgement to avoid circumstances that will require their superior skill. The Jazz pilot representatives will need to bring their ‘A-game’. Of course reject bad proposals, but be prepared to proffer better ones for all concerned.
Tbayer2021 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 8:31 am
So how many of you saw this coming? Were you expecting this, truedude? Where did this rank on your list of possibilities?
Tbayer2021 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 8:31 am
So how many of you saw this coming? Were you expecting this, truedude? Where did this rank on your list of possibilities?
Tbayer2021 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 8:31 am
So how many of you saw this coming? Were you expecting this, truedude? Where did this rank on your list of possibilities?
See what?
AC starting a new CPA with another carrier.
After 2025 I beleived it was near 100% if the pilot market supported it.
Them doing it now is an act of desperation and a massive contract violation. Notice that it was a letter if intent, which means they are likely working right now to secure our approval. But if we are asking for more than they want to give, I suspect they will move forward. But it will lead to a lot of legal challenges, and sent a strong signal to anyone and everyone to get out, and to stay away from Jazz. In the end it will hurt more than help them. And PAL still has to staff this airline, at a time when everyone is having challenges at this level.
After 2025 I beleived it was near 100% if the pilot market supported it.
Yes, I'm sure you did.
Please, enlighten us with all your other predictions. I'll keep tally and remind you next time they do something you weren't expecting. Which will be the next action they take.
After 2025 I beleived it was near 100% if the pilot market supported it.
Yes, I'm sure you did.
Please, enlighten us with all your other predictions. I'll keep tally and remind you next time they do something you weren't expecting. Which will be the next action they take.
I was very loud about the 2019 contract, and that flow will be ignored the moment it doesn't work for them.
And of course they would start a new one if they could; it is how AC operates. Whipsaw groups to keep pay low. Rinse wash and repeat.
After 2025 I beleived it was near 100% if the pilot market supported it.
Yes, I'm sure you did.
Please, enlighten us with all your other predictions. I'll keep tally and remind you next time they do something you weren't expecting. Which will be the next action they take.
I was very loud about the 2019 contract, and that flow will be ignored the moment it doesn't work for them.
And of course they would start a new one if they could; it is how AC operates. Whipsaw groups to keep pay low. Rinse wash and repeat.
That's an interesting claim. I just did a word search for "flow" under your comments and everything I found in 2019 seems to indicate that at the very least, you didn't hate the 17 year contract. Raving that the "stability it provides is worth something".
truedude wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 8:46 am
I am in the camp that likes to speculate--it is like a kid before Christmas trying to guess what is under the tree.
I think first, we need to appreciate that we are not the United States. We may not have seen a relative pilot shortage like we are seeing in the past 4 decades, but planes continue to be crewed. We are already the highest compensated regional pilots in Canada, and we are simply never going to be in a position to strong arm the company or Air Canada into giving us large raises. That being said, given the stability we are about to give everyone, that is certainly worth something.
This is my best guess:
It will be a 17 year contract with 2% annual pay raises, with a signing bonus upon ratification (a couple thousand).
The "B" scale will remain, along with the lack of YOS carry over to the left seat.
There will be re-openers every couple years, but cost neutral.
The current pension scheme will remain.
The enhanced flow through will provide some sort of pay protection when moving to Air Canada, (The method used could be varied). I also believe it will provide better guarentee's as to when you might get called for an interview, along with a streamlined interview process. No more of this random, we will just take whomever with no regard for how long they have served at Jazz.
I am sure many will be sad, and or annoyed we didn't get more, and stamp their feet about how we "caved." And many will point to the insanity of a 17yr deal because what happens if we are in a position to demand more because of the on going pilot shortage; to this, I say, if it ever becomes like it is in the states, or the states open their boarders to Canadian pilots, all airlines in Canada, contract or not, will be forced to re-evaluate their compensation packages--economics will dictate it.
I hope we find out soon though. And I hope the union abandons this "wait for the road show" nonsense before releasing the information. I strongly dislike this method that our union continuously uses; it feels too much like a dictatorship attempting to control the message.
After 2025 I beleived it was near 100% if the pilot market supported it.
Yes, I'm sure you did.
Please, enlighten us with all your other predictions. I'll keep tally and remind you next time they do something you weren't expecting. Which will be the next action they take.
If grievance is the only weapon in the arsenal, then the Jazz pilots are bringing a pocket knife to a gunfight.
There will be more announcements. Status quo is untenable given the pilot attrition rate at Jazz.
CHR will have to waive its exclusivity provision of the CPA (76+ seat aircraft). CHR will likely also agree to reductions to minimum fleet guarantees prior to 2026 and quite possibly thereafter.
JAZ ALPA will have to sign off on by these changes or file a grievance provided such guarantees were in fact explicitly enshrined in the CBA. Recall that remedy can only be directed at Jazz. An arbitrator cannot require remedy from a third party.
So all that remains is what will the Jazz pilots get in exchange? Something? Nothing? Thus far the answer is nothing.
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. Maybe the horse thinks everything is just fine. Or maybe the horse wants the water for free.
There is no doubt that the spectre of full normal course bargaining at AC is hanging over these discussions. Massive increases in pilot compensation (albeit on obscenely low base pay rates) does not create great optics for AC at their own pilot bargaining table.
Welcome to the (nearly) 40 years of bargaining dysfunction at Jazz and AC.
Please, enlighten us with all your other predictions. I'll keep tally and remind you next time they do something you weren't expecting. Which will be the next action they take.
I was very loud about the 2019 contract, and that flow will be ignored the moment it doesn't work for them.
And of course they would start a new one if they could; it is how AC operates. Whipsaw groups to keep pay low. Rinse wash and repeat.
That's an interesting claim. I just did a word search for "flow" under your comments and everything I found in 2019 seems to indicate that at the very least, you didn't hate the 17 year contract. Raving that the "stability it provides is worth something".
truedude wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 8:46 am
I am in the camp that likes to speculate--it is like a kid before Christmas trying to guess what is under the tree.
I think first, we need to appreciate that we are not the United States. We may not have seen a relative pilot shortage like we are seeing in the past 4 decades, but planes continue to be crewed. We are already the highest compensated regional pilots in Canada, and we are simply never going to be in a position to strong arm the company or Air Canada into giving us large raises. That being said, given the stability we are about to give everyone, that is certainly worth something.
This is my best guess:
It will be a 17 year contract with 2% annual pay raises, with a signing bonus upon ratification (a couple thousand).
The "B" scale will remain, along with the lack of YOS carry over to the left seat.
There will be re-openers every couple years, but cost neutral.
The current pension scheme will remain.
The enhanced flow through will provide some sort of pay protection when moving to Air Canada, (The method used could be varied). I also believe it will provide better guarentee's as to when you might get called for an interview, along with a streamlined interview process. No more of this random, we will just take whomever with no regard for how long they have served at Jazz.
I am sure many will be sad, and or annoyed we didn't get more, and stamp their feet about how we "caved." And many will point to the insanity of a 17yr deal because what happens if we are in a position to demand more because of the on going pilot shortage; to this, I say, if it ever becomes like it is in the states, or the states open their boarders to Canadian pilots, all airlines in Canada, contract or not, will be forced to re-evaluate their compensation packages--economics will dictate it.
I hope we find out soon though. And I hope the union abandons this "wait for the road show" nonsense before releasing the information. I strongly dislike this method that our union continuously uses; it feels too much like a dictatorship attempting to control the message.
So you took a comment I made at guessing what the contract might give us, before a single roadshow.
And it turned out to be worse than I thought it was going to be. Amd they failed to even buy our vote with the bonus, as it was beyond pathetic. I thought flow would have teeth, such as reserved numbers, similar to PMA 1.0. But it didn't even have that.
I was very loud about the 2019 contract, and that flow will be ignored the moment it doesn't work for them.
And of course they would start a new one if they could; it is how AC operates. Whipsaw groups to keep pay low. Rinse wash and repeat.
That's an interesting claim. I just did a word search for "flow" under your comments and everything I found in 2019 seems to indicate that at the very least, you didn't hate the 17 year contract. Raving that the "stability it provides is worth something".
truedude wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 8:46 am
I am in the camp that likes to speculate--it is like a kid before Christmas trying to guess what is under the tree.
I think first, we need to appreciate that we are not the United States. We may not have seen a relative pilot shortage like we are seeing in the past 4 decades, but planes continue to be crewed. We are already the highest compensated regional pilots in Canada, and we are simply never going to be in a position to strong arm the company or Air Canada into giving us large raises. That being said, given the stability we are about to give everyone, that is certainly worth something.
This is my best guess:
It will be a 17 year contract with 2% annual pay raises, with a signing bonus upon ratification (a couple thousand).
The "B" scale will remain, along with the lack of YOS carry over to the left seat.
There will be re-openers every couple years, but cost neutral.
The current pension scheme will remain.
The enhanced flow through will provide some sort of pay protection when moving to Air Canada, (The method used could be varied). I also believe it will provide better guarentee's as to when you might get called for an interview, along with a streamlined interview process. No more of this random, we will just take whomever with no regard for how long they have served at Jazz.
I am sure many will be sad, and or annoyed we didn't get more, and stamp their feet about how we "caved." And many will point to the insanity of a 17yr deal because what happens if we are in a position to demand more because of the on going pilot shortage; to this, I say, if it ever becomes like it is in the states, or the states open their boarders to Canadian pilots, all airlines in Canada, contract or not, will be forced to re-evaluate their compensation packages--economics will dictate it.
I hope we find out soon though. And I hope the union abandons this "wait for the road show" nonsense before releasing the information. I strongly dislike this method that our union continuously uses; it feels too much like a dictatorship attempting to control the message.
So you took a comment I made at guessing what the contract might give us, before a single roadshow.
And it turned out to be worse than I thought it was going to be. Amd they failed to even buy our vote with the bonus, as it was beyond pathetic. I thought flow would have teeth, such as reserved numbers, similar to PMA 1.0. But it didn't even have that.
My point being that your predictions, like 99.9% of predictions pilots love to make, are worthless. The remaining .01% can be chalked up to a broken clock being right twice a day.
Oh, and that you also love a bit of revisionist history
That's an interesting claim. I just did a word search for "flow" under your comments and everything I found in 2019 seems to indicate that at the very least, you didn't hate the 17 year contract. Raving that the "stability it provides is worth something".
So you took a comment I made at guessing what the contract might give us, before a single roadshow.
And it turned out to be worse than I thought it was going to be. Amd they failed to even buy our vote with the bonus, as it was beyond pathetic. I thought flow would have teeth, such as reserved numbers, similar to PMA 1.0. But it didn't even have that.
My point being that your predictions, like 99.9% of predictions pilots love to make, are worthless. The remaining .01% can be chalked up to a broken clock being right twice a day.
Oh, and that you also love a bit of revisionist history
I made a guess as to what the 17 year deal would include. And for the most part was right. You read one thing I wrote after using the search function. It also doesn't include everything I wrote on the ALPA forum.
But keep reading what else I wrote around that time about the contract. I was very much against it.
So you took a comment I made at guessing what the contract might give us, before a single roadshow.
And it turned out to be worse than I thought it was going to be. Amd they failed to even buy our vote with the bonus, as it was beyond pathetic. I thought flow would have teeth, such as reserved numbers, similar to PMA 1.0. But it didn't even have that.
My point being that your predictions, like 99.9% of predictions pilots love to make, are worthless. The remaining .01% can be chalked up to a broken clock being right twice a day.
Oh, and that you also love a bit of revisionist history
I made a guess as to what the 17 year deal would include. And for the most part was right. You read one thing I wrote after using the search function. It also doesn't include everything I wrote on the ALPA forum.
But keep reading what else I wrote around that time about the contract. I was very much against it.
Which part is revisionist?
Ay yes, of course! You made the comments elsewhere. What was I thinking.
I'll keep enjoying your predictions and seeing your reaction when the inevitable curveball comes up.
My point being that your predictions, like 99.9% of predictions pilots love to make, are worthless. The remaining .01% can be chalked up to a broken clock being right twice a day.
Oh, and that you also love a bit of revisionist history
I made a guess as to what the 17 year deal would include. And for the most part was right. You read one thing I wrote after using the search function. It also doesn't include everything I wrote on the ALPA forum.
But keep reading what else I wrote around that time about the contract. I was very much against it.
Which part is revisionist?
Ay yes, of course! You made the comments elsewhere. What was I thinking.
I'll keep enjoying your predictions and seeing your reaction when the inevitable curveball comes up.
Of course I commented elsewhere. Mostly on the ALPA forums. I argued if they wanted that contract to be voted in, they should at least have the decency to buy our vote. I suggested a $1000 for every year of service at Jazz. Anyone who remembers that comment from the ALPA boards will know who I am.
I made a guess as to what the 17 year deal would include. And for the most part was right. You read one thing I wrote after using the search function. It also doesn't include everything I wrote on the ALPA forum.
But keep reading what else I wrote around that time about the contract. I was very much against it.
Which part is revisionist?
Ay yes, of course! You made the comments elsewhere. What was I thinking.
I'll keep enjoying your predictions and seeing your reaction when the inevitable curveball comes up.
Of course I commented elsewhere. Mostly on the ALPA forums. I argued if they wanted that contract to be voted in, they should at least have the decency to buy our vote. I suggested a $1000 for every year of service at Jazz. Anyone who remembers that comment from the ALPA boards will know who I am.
And again, which revisionist history?
You currently claiming you were against the contract, when it seems it was quite the opposite.
Ay yes, of course! You made the comments elsewhere. What was I thinking.
I'll keep enjoying your predictions and seeing your reaction when the inevitable curveball comes up.
Of course I commented elsewhere. Mostly on the ALPA forums. I argued if they wanted that contract to be voted in, they should at least have the decency to buy our vote. I suggested a $1000 for every year of service at Jazz. Anyone who remembers that comment from the ALPA boards will know who I am.
And again, which revisionist history?
You currently claiming you were against the contract, when it seems it was quite the opposite.
Anyways, I have my popcorn ready.
You read one comment from before the contract details had even been announced. Perhaps you should keep reading. Maybe don't rely on the search function, and actually do the work.
Ay yes, of course! You made the comments elsewhere. What was I thinking.
I'll keep enjoying your predictions and seeing your reaction when the inevitable curveball comes up.
Of course I commented elsewhere. Mostly on the ALPA forums. I argued if they wanted that contract to be voted in, they should at least have the decency to buy our vote. I suggested a $1000 for every year of service at Jazz. Anyone who remembers that comment from the ALPA boards will know who I am.
And again, which revisionist history?
You currently claiming you were against the contract, when it seems it was quite the opposite.
Anyways, I have my popcorn ready.
I also wrote this:
"First off, I would never vote no believe there is a better deal. This comes to what I believe I am personally worth, and we as a group are wroth. If we vote no and it turns out we all get fucked, I will buy you a round. But if we vote yes, and still get fucked, you owe me a round. Deal?"
On July 1, 2023, PAL Airlines completed its initial Air Canada Express flight under a newly completed commercial agreement between the two carriers, operating from St. John's International Airport to Halifax Stanfield International Airport.
ST. JOHN'S, NL, July 5, 2023 /CNW/ - On Saturday, July 1, 2023, PAL Airlines and Air Canada jointly completed the inaugural PAL Airlines operation of an Air Canada Express flight. Operated between St. John's International Airport and Halifax Stanfield International Airport, this inaugural section was the first flight operated under a newly completed commercial agreement achieved between the two carriers to fortify regional service in eastern Canada.
The commercial agreement will see PAL Airlines acquire up to six additional Dash 8-400 aircraft to be progressively introduced into service on behalf of Air Canada for a term of up to five years. This is the most recent in a series of agreements achieved between the two carriers which have built connectivity and enhanced regional travel options in eastern Canada through the addition of PAL Airlines as an Aeroplan partner, the achievement of an interline agreement that allows for seamless customer connections between the two networks, and the sale of certain PAL Airlines flights on aircanada.com.
"We're tremendously excited to be working together with Air Canada to collaboratively develop and strengthen regional travel options across eastern Canada," said Calvin Ash, President of PAL Airlines. "This most recent agreement preserves the existing PAL Airlines commercial network, substantially expands our airline operation, and supports our long-held strategy of building our business by staying attuned to the markets we serve. The inaugural flight that took place this weekend marks the start of an exciting new chapter for PAL Airlines, and a substantial step forward in our commercial relationship with Air Canada."
"PAL Airlines has a reputation as a strong operator and this agreement will allow us to provide added stability to our already extensive regional operations in eastern Canada. Our partnership will be beneficial for local communities as air connections support economic activity and tourism while keeping families and friends connected," said Mark Galardo, Executive Vice President of Revenue and Network Planning at Air Canada.
cdnavater wrote: ↑Thu Jul 06, 2023 8:03 am
On July 1, 2023, PAL Airlines completed its initial Air Canada Express flight under a newly completed commercial agreement between the two carriers, operating from St. John's International Airport to Halifax Stanfield International Airport.
ST. JOHN'S, NL, July 5, 2023 /CNW/ - On Saturday, July 1, 2023, PAL Airlines and Air Canada jointly completed the inaugural PAL Airlines operation of an Air Canada Express flight. Operated between St. John's International Airport and Halifax Stanfield International Airport, this inaugural section was the first flight operated under a newly completed commercial agreement achieved between the two carriers to fortify regional service in eastern Canada.
The commercial agreement will see PAL Airlines acquire up to six additional Dash 8-400 aircraft to be progressively introduced into service on behalf of Air Canada for a term of up to five years. This is the most recent in a series of agreements achieved between the two carriers which have built connectivity and enhanced regional travel options in eastern Canada through the addition of PAL Airlines as an Aeroplan partner, the achievement of an interline agreement that allows for seamless customer connections between the two networks, and the sale of certain PAL Airlines flights on aircanada.com.
"We're tremendously excited to be working together with Air Canada to collaboratively develop and strengthen regional travel options across eastern Canada," said Calvin Ash, President of PAL Airlines. "This most recent agreement preserves the existing PAL Airlines commercial network, substantially expands our airline operation, and supports our long-held strategy of building our business by staying attuned to the markets we serve. The inaugural flight that took place this weekend marks the start of an exciting new chapter for PAL Airlines, and a substantial step forward in our commercial relationship with Air Canada."
"PAL Airlines has a reputation as a strong operator and this agreement will allow us to provide added stability to our already extensive regional operations in eastern Canada. Our partnership will be beneficial for local communities as air connections support economic activity and tourism while keeping families and friends connected," said Mark Galardo, Executive Vice President of Revenue and Network Planning at Air Canada.
Well with how fast westjet is calling people out west after they apply, it won't be even a month before it is a net loss still for Air Canada. And most people are leaving as a direct result of this PAL stupidity. So once again, good job AC, you really thought this one out.
I see Jazz is having to cover what should be PAL flying. What a stroke of genius that was... Who ever says AC has a plan, is completely out to lunch. The only plan AC has is "don't pay pilots appropriately" and shrink to accomplish that goal.
And PAL is having to cancel their own flying, in an attempt to cover the AC flying... what a bargain for them.
The short sighted thinking on display continues to be impressive!
truedude wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2023 9:33 am
I see Jazz is having to cover what should be PAL flying. What a stroke of genius that was... Who ever says AC has a plan, is completely out to lunch. The only plan AC has is "don't pay pilots appropriately" and shrink to accomplish that goal.
And PAL is having to cancel their own flying, in an attempt to cover the AC flying... what a bargain for them.
The short sighted thinking on display continues to be impressive!
Don’t worry, the ever moving recession will fix things
