FLAIR NOT PAYING PILOTS FOR WORK

[cdnavater]

Again, the fact that this burns three days of a pilot's maximum of 18 works in the favour of the pilot, not the company.

There is no minimum credit for a calendar day if there is a duty assigned. See the example of a YUL redeye spanning 2 calendar days. It does not pay a min of 4 credits for each day. See the edit to my original post that makes all of this irrelevant in any case because almost every pilot operating these pairings is getting paid MMG regardless because they are so inefficient.

There is a minimum duty credit of 4 hours. or if there is no duty on a day away from base, then also 4 hours. We're happy to take this one to arbitration, but I'd suggest you'd need to show some language to support the assertion that there is a 4-credit minimum per calendar day that has a flight duty assigned.

There are no liberties being taken with contract language. We're following it exactly.

Can you point out the clause that supports this interpretation of yours?

Don't let this be forgotten in the rest of the conversation. There's complete denial of clear clauses going on here.

Yes, it’s very clear that with a definition of a day beginning at 0001, if you check in at 2300, you would get a minimum of 4 credit and then after midnight a minimum of 4 credit or what you fly, whichever is GREATER.
Wow Flair, way to show your colours. I would get the heck out now if you can, this shop is nickel and dimming you to buy a little more time from closing up, you will be left with thousands in outstanding pay left owing to you.
Some pilots saying this pay issue is not new, going on for months which means, money owed.
Sorry, fellas, I see a lot of red flags here, I at a minimum wouldn’t be leaving any decent jobs to go here!

[ShillBill]

Hello Flair peeps, how much does a junior FO make in a year?

Depends on how much they're making at their second job...

Anyone making 75k a year who needs to work a second job is just bad at finances.

Out of touch.. yikes!

Hopefully you're not anywhere near the negotiating table...

[DanWEC]

Anyone making 75k a year who needs to work a second job is just bad at finances.

Do you live in a tent?

[crashpadcommute]

Anyone making 75k a year who needs to work a second job is just bad at finances.

Do you live in a tent?

Boomers gonna...boom

[rigpiggy]

Anyone making 75k a year who needs to work a second job is just bad at finances.

how would you live with any kind of quality of life based in YVR or YYZ on 75k a year?

75k, marginal tax rate 33% so 50k take home, -24k housing, -food, -utilities,- insurance,-car etc...... Not a whole lot left for beer. No quality of life. Unless buddies idea of financial freedom is living in his parents basement

[rigpiggy]

Anyone making 75k a year who needs to work a second job is just bad at finances.

how would you live with any kind of quality of life based in YVR or YYZ on 75k a year?

75k, marginal tax rate 33% so 50k take home, -24k housing, -food, -utilities,- insurance,-car etc...... Not a whole lot left for beer. No quality of life. Unless buddies idea of financial freedom is living in his parents basement

[DanWEC]

Not to mention that 75k is worth 11k less than only 2 years ago. Peanuts unless you're happy living with roommates.

[BTD]

Anyone making 75k a year who needs to work a second job is just bad at finances.

how would you live with any kind of quality of life based in YVR or YYZ on 75k a year?

75k, marginal tax rate 33% so 50k take home, -24k housing, -food, -utilities,- insurance,-car etc...... Not a whole lot left for beer. No quality of life. Unless buddies idea of financial freedom is living in his parents basement

No argument on the conclusion, but your take home in BC or ON is closer to 60k. If your marginal rate is 33% you won’t be taxed at that rate on all your income. Only the amount above the previous rate.

Federal brackets for 2023 are
0-50 197
50 197-100 392
And so on.

Everyone is taxed the same 15% on the first $50197 they make, regardless of if they make 50 197 a year or 400 000. Then add in provincial which works the same way.

A lot of people out there think that someone who makes 50 198 will take home less than someone who makes 50 196 because they end up in the higher marginal rate bracket. But it simply isn’t the case.

[TC.Enforcement]

Anyone making 75k a year who needs to work a second job is just bad at finances.

how would you live with any kind of quality of life based in YVR or YYZ on 75k a year?

75k, marginal tax rate 33% so 50k take home, -24k housing, -food, -utilities,- insurance,-car etc...... Not a whole lot left for beer. No quality of life. Unless buddies idea of financial freedom is living in his parents basement

In BC, the after tax take yearly take home pay for someone making 75k a year is actually closer to $57,000 take home pay. You don’t need beer, and life exists outside YVR and YYZ.

2 facts.

1.) An F/O at Flair makes well above the average single income in Canada

2.) majority of people suck at personal finance.

[DanWEC]

So you exclude the most populous areas, live only in the country, and don't have enough money to have a drink... sounds entirely reasonable! Also, you just described being Amish.

The average single income in Canada in 2023 is 72k, and it absolutely sucks, it hasn't caught up to the last 4 years. The average Canadian income has the lowest buying power in history right now.

[lament]

life exists outside YVR and YYZ.

more than half of Flair pilots are based in those two cities

[TC.Enforcement]

So you exclude the most populous areas, live only in the country, and don't have enough money to have a drink... sounds entirely reasonable! Also, you just described being Amish.

The average single income in Canada in 2023 is 72k, and it absolutely sucks, it hasn't caught up to the last 4 years. The average Canadian income has the lowest buying power in history right now.

I’m pretty solid on my opinion. People need to take more responsibility when it comes to their own finances. YVR and YYZ are not the only populous areas in Canada. YHZ, YUL, YOW, YWG, YYC, YEG are just some of the options. The reality is, you want to live in some of the most expensive cities in the world, and turn around and cry a fowl. The amount of people I work with servicing credit card debt for shit they didn’t need, financing a vehicle they simple don’t require, and going on vacations they can’t afford is staggering. Life has choices, and those choices have consequences, good or bad.

[DanWEC]

I'm sorry, but I can't see the sense in stating that the average income is fine, but it's conditional that you can't live where 50% of Canadians live, can't afford a car, and don't go on any vacations. That sounds a little more like below average.
I'm no fan of YYZ but most other cities are catching up fast.

15 years ago you and I would have thought 75k was good money, but 75k today is worth closer to 45k 15 years ago. 15 years ago 45k wasn't that great. Also, that was turboprop money.... so today, your 75k has the same buying power as what you would have in a turboprop 15 years ago.

f*cking $hitty

[crashpadcommute]

In BC, the after tax take yearly take home pay for someone making 75k a year is actually closer to $57,000 take home pay. You don’t need beer, and life exists outside YVR and YYZ.

2 facts.

1.) An F/O at Flair makes well above the average single income in Canada

2.) majority of people suck at personal finance.

Beyond the epic disconnect to cost of living in 2023, this statement is the ultimate miss

The fact this profession is being compared to "average income" is a huge fail. We are not garbage men, plumbers, bus drivers or any other Joe job you can think of

The pilot profession in the US is the highest paid occupation outside of Healthcare. Their comparables are surgeons, specialists, dentists, etc They make MORE than GPs.

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/educatio ... n-the-u-s/

Also, highest unionized profession in the US...pilots

[Floop]

Wow. You guys managed to take a thread where the CP admitted they're not paying people properly by denying the definition of a calendar day, and you turned it into a rant about inflation and financial literacy.

Nice work gentlemen.

[DanWEC]

Wow. You guys managed to take a thread where the CP admitted they're not paying people properly by denying the definition of a calendar day, and you turned it into a rant about inflation and financial literacy.

Nice work gentlemen.

First day? Welcome!

[CaptDukeNukem]

Wow. You guys managed to take a thread where the CP admitted they're not paying people properly by denying the definition of a calendar day, and you turned it into a rant about inflation and financial literacy.

Nice work gentlemen.

Just wait till it gets political. But yes, welcome to the party. Who did you vote for?

[eurotrash]

The theme remains the same

Canadian pilots are underpaid and shills are undermining the profession

[daedalusx]

The theme remains the same

Canadian pilots are underpaid and shills are undermining the profession

Hey but you’re making slightly more than the wage slave at the Amazon warehouse therefore if you enjoy anything better than bulk Costco KD 7x a week and not putting 80% of your take home pay into renting a literal black mold shithole 1bd basement suite within an hour drive of YYZ you’re a financially illiterate snowflake.

Pilot shortage? How dare Gen Z don’t want to become pilots nowadays, it surely must be because they’re lazy and lack work ethics. *Angry boomer noises*

[Gameon]

Sad Canada. Still pilots out there thinking 75K is a professional wage. I guess it’s why we are shockingly behind the US and other carriers. Managing money is a totally different discussion. I hope AC gets a huge raise and Flair will be forced to a 30%+ increase.

[co-joe]

You guys under ALPA agreed to a max of 18 days of work per month?

All your union reps who agreed to this should be canned immediately

Honestly we need to stop shitting on our 3 man negotiating committee. A year ago a Captain made $114k and an FO made 60K. The 3 guys with little to no union experience who stepped up to the plate and negotiated an industry matching 150k/73k starting wage did the best they could with what they had, and what they knew. We all knew the contract had weak wording and loop holes you could drive an 18 wheeler through, and here we are a year later, and our crew planning department has their class 1 licenses and they are driving trucks through any and every hole they can, to make the company as much money as they possibly can while times are good.

As for the 3 volunteers at the helm of ALPA 250, they have been worked over like rented mules and clearly they are done. All 3 are great guys, they've answered ever call, every email, attended every meeting, and in the chat groups they've put up with disrespect and condescension and they've worked tirelessly to better our cause. They now have help, and we now have a lot more great volunteers manning many many great positions to answer questions, and keep working on things.

Moving forward we have a new batch of fresh faced, bright eye'd and bushy tailed volunteers to carry the torch and keep making this fun little company even better. They have their work cut out for them, the road ahead is not going to be easy. But it will be worth it.

Yup max 18 days for a junior pilot. Minumum 12 GDOs in a month with 30 days, 13 in a month with 31. But on the other end of the spectrum, our senior pilots work 8 days a month. That's how a seniority based system works, you do your time, and as time goes on, you reap the rewards. I'm mid seniority in my base and usually work 10 days a month. 12 in a month where I have vacation or recurrent training. I've done several years of 18 day months, that's just how it goes. I also commuted for a good stretch, which sucked, costed a lot of money, and stretched some relationships, but it was worth it.

Anyway, my beverage is empty, gotta go pour another one. Cheers

[ShillBill]

You guys under ALPA agreed to a max of 18 days of work per month?

All your union reps who agreed to this should be canned immediately

Honestly we need to stop shitting on our 3 man negotiating committee. A year ago a Captain made $114k and an FO made 60K. The 3 guys with little to no union experience who stepped up to the plate and negotiated an industry matching 150k/73k starting wage did the best they could with what they had, and what they knew. We all knew the contract had weak wording and loop holes you could drive an 18 wheeler through, and here we are a year later, and our crew planning department has their class 1 licenses and they are driving trucks through any and every hole they can, to make the company as much money as they possibly can while times are good.

As for the 3 volunteers at the helm of ALPA 250, they have been worked over like rented mules and clearly they are done. All 3 are great guys, they've answered ever call, every email, attended every meeting, and in the chat groups they've put up with disrespect and condescension and they've worked tirelessly to better our cause. They now have help, and we now have a lot more great volunteers manning many many great positions to answer questions, and keep working on things.

Moving forward we have a new batch of fresh faced, bright eye'd and bushy tailed volunteers to carry the torch and keep making this fun little company even better. They have their work cut out for them, the road ahead is not going to be easy. But it will be worth it.

Yup max 18 days for a junior pilot. Minumum 12 GDOs in a month with 30 days, 13 in a month with 31. But on the other end of the spectrum, our senior pilots work 8 days a month. That's how a seniority based system works, you do your time, and as time goes on, you reap the rewards. I'm mid seniority in my base and usually work 10 days a month. 12 in a month where I have vacation or recurrent training. I've done several years of 18 day months, that's just how it goes. I also commuted for a good stretch, which sucked, costed a lot of money, and stretched some relationships, but it was worth it.

Anyway, my beverage is empty, gotta go pour another one. Cheers

A few questions:

1) if you knew the contract wording was weak, why did you vote "yes"?

2) the idea of a good contract is that it all your pilots have some sort of a good life. You do realize you're relying on the commercial decisions of the company to make your life better, right? What happens when they change their plans, see your complete lack of production guarantees and start milking you all? Do you have any friends at WestJet?

Seniority is the most fair system, but 18 days a month? This has to be world worst

3) how do you work more days with vacation?

[co-joe]

A few questions:

1) if you knew the contract wording was weak, why did you vote "yes"?

2) the idea of a good contract is that it all your pilots have some sort of a good life. You do realize you're relying on the commercial decisions of the company to make your life better, right? What happens when they change their plans, see your complete lack of production guarantees and start milking you all? Do you have any friends at WestJet?

Seniority is the most fair system, but 18 days a month? This has to be world worst

3) how do you work more days with vacation?

Happy to answer questions.

1) There were around 300 pilots who voted on the contract, I'm sure you'd get lots of different answers "the money" is a common answer. For me, I know and respect the union reps and believe that they put forth the best contract that they could achieve for both the pilots and the company under the circumstances.

2) I don't believe the purpose of the contract is to please "all pilots". I believe the purpose of a first CBA as a sched airline was to set a good framework, to build on later, that lets the company make money, and allows the average member a decent work life balance. This CBA is miles better than WestJet paid when they started out. 18 days a month can be hard if you're doing 4 leg min credit days, or it can be easy if you're on reserve. Lots of senior pilots bid reserve and then pass on flights as it's a great way to do projects around the house, relax, wrench on a project car, or whatever. Doesn't WestJet only give reserve to junior pilots? I'm sure lots of senior pilots would bid reserve if they could.

3) Because pay is based on a credit system, and a training day is only paid 4 hours min credit. Where I can easily fly 8 hours of credit when working, training is half that, so I have to work more days in the month to fly out my block. I didn't mean to say vacation, I meant to say training only, sorry my mistake.

Believe me when I say that I find stuff to complain about with this CBA. Crewplanning has been amazing with their ability to twist the words in the contract to their benefit and come up with some absolutely shit assignments. And our MEC seems to have completely chosen to ignore virtually all of them. Most of their time seems to have been spent on organizing various committees, and getting the framework set up that will allow us to function collectively moving forward. Unifor 2002 was one guy. And he didn't want the job. We're batting 1000 by comparison.

[ShillBill]

A few questions:

1) if you knew the contract wording was weak, why did you vote "yes"?

2) the idea of a good contract is that it all your pilots have some sort of a good life. You do realize you're relying on the commercial decisions of the company to make your life better, right? What happens when they change their plans, see your complete lack of production guarantees and start milking you all? Do you have any friends at WestJet?

Seniority is the most fair system, but 18 days a month? This has to be world worst

3) how do you work more days with vacation?

Happy to answer questions.

1) There were around 300 pilots who voted on the contract, I'm sure you'd get lots of different answers "the money" is a common answer. For me, I know and respect the union reps and believe that they put forth the best contract that they could achieve for both the pilots and the company under the circumstances.

2) I don't believe the purpose of the contract is to please "all pilots". I believe the purpose of a first CBA as a sched airline was to set a good framework, to build on later, that lets the company make money, and allows the average member a decent work life balance. This CBA is miles better than WestJet paid when they started out. 18 days a month can be hard if you're doing 4 leg min credit days, or it can be easy if you're on reserve. Lots of senior pilots bid reserve and then pass on flights as it's a great way to do projects around the house, relax, wrench on a project car, or whatever. Doesn't WestJet only give reserve to junior pilots? I'm sure lots of senior pilots would bid reserve if they could.

3) Because pay is based on a credit system, and a training day is only paid 4 hours min credit. Where I can easily fly 8 hours of credit when working, training is half that, so I have to work more days in the month to fly out my block. I didn't mean to say vacation, I meant to say training only, sorry my mistake.

Believe me when I say that I find stuff to complain about with this CBA. Crewplanning has been amazing with their ability to twist the words in the contract to their benefit and come up with some absolutely shit assignments. And our MEC seems to have completely chosen to ignore virtually all of them. Most of their time seems to have been spent on organizing various committees, and getting the framework set up that will allow us to function collectively moving forward. Unifor 2002 was one guy. And he didn't want the job. We're batting 1000 by comparison.

I respect the honesty and being congenial but some serious concerns here:

1) voting "for the money". You guys don't have the money or the quality of life, at least not to the standard you really deserve.

2) you need to stop thinking pilot costs make or break airlines. It's a fallacy. Period. Most successful brand out there...Delta. Highest paid pilots...Delta

If Flair fails, it will because of the ineptitude of management

3) it is clear you guys need some serious help from ALPA. Your MEC does not understand unionism and is spending too much time with management. Hopefully you can find some new guys that "get it"

[SPR]

I believe the purpose of a first CBA as a sched airline...

I don't understand why so many people qualify statements about Flair's operational performance or employment conditions with caveats based on the transition to being a scheduled operator, or even call them a "start-up". Flair is 18 years old. What difference does it make to the pilots that management decided to change the strategic direction of the company away from doing charters? No one should be comparing a CBA passed 17 years after the company's founding to WestJet's pay scale when they literally were starting up, especially since WestJet employees got stock options that made them millionaires. Flair pilots get nothing from helping the company's bottom line. Flair has been around since 2005, the NewLeaf flying started in 2017, and the switch to operating solely as a scheduled operator happened in 2018, which means the Unifor contract was the first as a sched airline. Give it a rest on the "helping the company get going" angle; management is squeezing you for the ownership's benefit.