AR program Did I read that right?

[mantogasrsrwy]

I sure hope he’s a MLO or some other kind of paid management shill. Imagine sweeping for this exec team for free.

LE CONCIERGE SANS SALAIRE

If you don't like Westjet, don't go there. I just find someone who makes up a new account just to constantly whine about them funny.

[Bede]

We are. And the contract says “A Pilot shall be paid based on their Length of Service as a Pilot with the Company”
And WJ argues that before being with the company, Sunwing pilots were not with the company. Same argument has been made with Encore, which is why their pay resets when they join WJ. There are already 2 pay scales, nothing new.

The grievance might be successful, but things are not that simple

Rarely will you hear me say that things are that simple, but I will in this case. This grievance gets more absurd the deeper you look into it.

In this integration bid, there are a small handful of pilots who were FO's at SWG who will be captains at WJ. For example, Pilot A has been a SWG FO for 10 years. He's presently on year 10 FO pay and will go to year 10 CA pay once he gets his CA line check done. There's another SWG pilot, call him Pilot B, who was a SWG FO for 5 years, and SWG CA for 7 years for a total of 12 years. He retained his CA spot in the bid. WJ management is paying him at year 7 CA pay.

ALPA will absolutely win this grievance.

[nohojob]

We are. And the contract says “A Pilot shall be paid based on their Length of Service as a Pilot with the Company”
And WJ argues that before being with the company, Sunwing pilots were not with the company. Same argument has been made with Encore, which is why their pay resets when they join WJ. There are already 2 pay scales, nothing new.

The grievance might be successful, but things are not that simple

Rarely will you hear me say that things are that simple, but I will in this case. This grievance gets more absurd the deeper you look into it.

In this integration bid, there are a small handful of pilots who were FO's at SWG who will be captains at WJ. For example, Pilot A has been a SWG FO for 10 years. He's presently on year 10 FO pay and will go to year 10 CA pay once he gets his CA line check done. There's another SWG pilot, call him Pilot B, who was a SWG FO for 5 years, and SWG CA for 7 years for a total of 12 years. He retained his CA spot in the bid. WJ management is paying him at year 7 CA pay.

ALPA will absolutely win this grievance.

I agree, it's a no brainer.
However if it is so obviously easy to win, why would management try ? They would have to payback the affected pilots right ?

[ant_321]

We are. And the contract says “A Pilot shall be paid based on their Length of Service as a Pilot with the Company”
And WJ argues that before being with the company, Sunwing pilots were not with the company. Same argument has been made with Encore, which is why their pay resets when they join WJ. There are already 2 pay scales, nothing new.

The grievance might be successful, but things are not that simple

Rarely will you hear me say that things are that simple, but I will in this case. This grievance gets more absurd the deeper you look into it.

In this integration bid, there are a small handful of pilots who were FO's at SWG who will be captains at WJ. For example, Pilot A has been a SWG FO for 10 years. He's presently on year 10 FO pay and will go to year 10 CA pay once he gets his CA line check done. There's another SWG pilot, call him Pilot B, who was a SWG FO for 5 years, and SWG CA for 7 years for a total of 12 years. He retained his CA spot in the bid. WJ management is paying him at year 7 CA pay.

ALPA will absolutely win this grievance.

I agree, it's a no brainer.
However if it is so obviously easy to win, why would management try ? They would have to payback the affected pilots right ?

My assumption is they know they will lose but nobody wants to be the one to “give” all that money away. They will wait until the arbitrator makes them.

[fish4life]

We are. And the contract says “A Pilot shall be paid based on their Length of Service as a Pilot with the Company”
And WJ argues that before being with the company, Sunwing pilots were not with the company. Same argument has been made with Encore, which is why their pay resets when they join WJ. There are already 2 pay scales, nothing new.

The grievance might be successful, but things are not that simple

Rarely will you hear me say that things are that simple, but I will in this case. This grievance gets more absurd the deeper you look into it.

In this integration bid, there are a small handful of pilots who were FO's at SWG who will be captains at WJ. For example, Pilot A has been a SWG FO for 10 years. He's presently on year 10 FO pay and will go to year 10 CA pay once he gets his CA line check done. There's another SWG pilot, call him Pilot B, who was a SWG FO for 5 years, and SWG CA for 7 years for a total of 12 years. He retained his CA spot in the bid. WJ management is paying him at year 7 CA pay.

ALPA will absolutely win this grievance.

I agree, it's a no brainer.
However if it is so obviously easy to win, why would management try ? They would have to payback the affected pilots right ?

It’s the same reason why a union needs a strong strike vote mandate for a contract.
The managers / execs need to show their bosses that they did everything they could and were forced into it.

[nohojob]

I suppose during the months they're not paying, they can invest this money (while the pilots affected can't).

[Lurch]

Merging mainline and a regional is not the North American standard.

They can retire and apply for direct entry captain off the street and respect seniority at Encore.

So AR's who have been at WJ longer than Encore has existed, have to apply, interview, and go BOTL at Encore to "respect their seniority", but Encore pilots don't have to do any of that and keep their seniority when they flow over?

Sure but let's make it fair both ways, all current Encore pilots lose their seniority when going to WJ and have to re-apply.

[flieslikeachicken]

So AR's who have been at WJ longer than Encore has existed, have to apply, interview, and go BOTL at Encore to "respect their seniority", but Encore pilots don't have to do any of that and keep their seniority when they flow over?

Sure but let's make it fair both ways, all current Encore pilots lose their seniority when going to WJ and have to re-apply.

There is a contract with a grandfather clause for all Encore pilots employed at Encore prior to January 1, 2024. The clause is not worth much considering it will take another five years at least for the last class hired in 2023 to flow. You forget that mainline pilots bumped nearly all Encore pilots out of Encore during COVID and then decided to use Encore flow as a bargaining chip during the most recent contract negotiations.

[JBI]

So AR's who have been at WJ longer than Encore has existed, have to apply, interview, and go BOTL at Encore to "respect their seniority", but Encore pilots don't have to do any of that and keep their seniority when they flow over?

Sure but let's make it fair both ways, all current Encore pilots lose their seniority when going to WJ and have to re-apply.

There is a contract with a grandfather clause for all Encore pilots employed at Encore prior to January 1, 2024. The clause is not worth much considering it will take another five years at least for the last class hired in 2023 to flow. You forget that mainline pilots bumped nearly all Encore pilots out of Encore during COVID and then decided to use Encore flow as a bargaining chip during the most recent contract negotiations.

Close.

Grandfather clause applies to Encore pilots hired prior to December 5, 2022. It's worth a lot for the 186 pilots whom it applies to as it means being able to skip Reserve and be much closer to upgrade.

While I think cancelling the PTA outright instead of amending it was short sighted (precisely for situations such as this), it's water under the bridge. The WJ pilot group voted to cancel the PTA as per the cancellation clause in the document and it was cancelled.

The MOS after the cancellation of the PTA by the WJ pilot group clarified which rights remain and which rights cease to exist and has been agreed to by all parties - has nothing to do about 'fair both ways'.

[flieslikeachicken]

Close.

Grandfather clause applies to Encore pilots hired prior to December 5, 2022. It's worth a lot for the 186 pilots whom it applies to as it means being able to skip Reserve and be much closer to upgrade.

While I think cancelling the PTA outright instead of amending it was short sighted (precisely for situations such as this), it's water under the bridge. The WJ pilot group voted to cancel the PTA as per the cancellation clause in the document and it was cancelled.

The MOS after the cancellation of the PTA by the WJ pilot group clarified which rights remain and which rights cease to exist and has been agreed to by all parties - has nothing to do about 'fair both ways'.

Imagine being so out of touch with the people who it affected that you think that it is still "worth a lot" to Encorians. Try talking to some when you're walking through the airport.

[JBI]

Close.

Grandfather clause applies to Encore pilots hired prior to December 5, 2022. It's worth a lot for the 186 pilots whom it applies to as it means being able to skip Reserve and be much closer to upgrade.

While I think cancelling the PTA outright instead of amending it was short sighted (precisely for situations such as this), it's water under the bridge. The WJ pilot group voted to cancel the PTA as per the cancellation clause in the document and it was cancelled.

The MOS after the cancellation of the PTA by the WJ pilot group clarified which rights remain and which rights cease to exist and has been agreed to by all parties - has nothing to do about 'fair both ways'.

Imagine being so out of touch with the people who it affected that you think that it is still "worth a lot" to Encorians. Try talking to some when you're walking through the airport.

Talk to regional pilots? Ew, David, Gross! When my old-colleagues at Encore wish to contact me they are required to first reach out to my Lead FA and they'll relay messages to me.

[flieslikeachicken]

Talk to regional pilots? Ew, David, Gross! When my old-colleagues at Encore wish to contact me they are required to first reach out to my Lead FA and they'll relay messages to me.

Nobody shall ever say you aren't funny.

[mantogasrsrwy]

Talk to regional pilots? Ew, David, Gross! When my old-colleagues at Encore wish to contact me they are required to first reach out to my Lead FA and they'll relay messages to me.

Nobody shall ever say you aren't funny.

Nice irony dude

[flieslikeachicken]

Talk to regional pilots? Ew, David, Gross! When my old-colleagues at Encore wish to contact me they are required to first reach out to my Lead FA and they'll relay messages to me.

Nobody shall ever say you aren't funny.

Nice irony dude

I can't tell if you are trying to make a statement or if you think that my responses have been funny. I have been serious with my replies thus-far.

JBI is a funny person as you can tell by the joke that he made. The joke was obviously made at my expense, but it was funny and I'm not thin-skinned.

[JBI]

Nobody shall ever say you aren't funny.

Nice irony dude

I can't tell if you are trying to make a statement or if you think that my responses have been funny. I have been serious with my replies thus-far.

JBI is a funny person as you can tell by the joke that he made. The joke was obviously made at my expense, but it was funny and I'm not thin-skinned.

flieslikeachicken - appreciate that you find me funny (seriously) The joke wasn't directly aimed at you, more as a response to your comment that I was out of touch or didn't talk to Encore pilots - I chat with Encore pilots very regularly.

You're definitely welcome to disagree with my arguments on how valuable the grandfathered PTA provisions are and how someone measures that value.

I did have reserved seniority when I flowed from Encore to WestJet and, for me personally, it has been very valuable. It may not hold the same value for others. I don't want to make assumptions, but it seems that you, like many other Encore pilots decided it wasn't worth enjoy to stay and made the move somewhere else. For many, despite the reserved seniority at WJ, there were much better career options going somewhere else and I truly wish them the best. More than 50% of the pilots I flew with at Encore are not at Encore or WJ anymore. I'm still good friends with many.

For the Encore pilots hired after the expiration of the PTA (December 5, 2022), I'm sure some would find value in the grandfathered PTA provisions but some wouldn't.

[flieslikeachicken]

flieslikeachicken - appreciate that you find me funny (seriously) The joke wasn't directly aimed at you, more as a response to your comment that I was out of touch or didn't talk to Encore pilots - I chat with Encore pilots very regularly.

You're definitely welcome to disagree with my arguments on how valuable the grandfathered PTA provisions are and how someone measures that value.

I did have reserved seniority when I flowed from Encore to WestJet and, for me personally, it has been very valuable. It may not hold the same value for others. I don't want to make assumptions, but it seems that you, like many other Encore pilots decided it wasn't worth enjoy to stay and made the move somewhere else. For many, despite the reserved seniority at WJ, there were much better career options going somewhere else and I truly wish them the best. More than 50% of the pilots I flew with at Encore are not at Encore or WJ anymore. I'm still good friends with many.

For the Encore pilots hired after the expiration of the PTA (December 5, 2022), I'm sure some would find value in the grandfathered PTA provisions but some wouldn't.

The issue with reserved seniority is that it nobody currently at Encore is going to see the cockpit of a 737 for the next couple of years, save maybe the top 20. They haven't had any flow for over a year now and it is unlikely to occur at all this year. There are a bit over 100 pilots with reserved seniority left on the list AFAIK and the last one won't flow for 3-5 years. That means a decade at Encore with 5-6000 hours while 1500 hour pilots are at WestJet making YoS.

The fact that anyone remains at Encore is beyond me.

[BigQ]

We were told class of 20 flow from Encore to WJ mainline on Jan 6 2026

[cdnavater]

We were told class of 20 flow from Encore to WJ mainline on Jan 6 2026

Ahhh, the old carrot! The top 20 more likely to stick around.

[MaxAuto]

How long does an encore pilot have to wait at WestJet before upgrading? Can one flow through and upgrade if their seniority holds a vacancy right away?

[nohojob]

There will be a minimum of 1 year and 1000 hours as per the FTM.

[flieslikeachicken]

We were told class of 20 flow from Encore to WJ mainline on Jan 6 2026

Not the first time we've heard that and not the last time that the promise will not come true.

[flieslikeachicken]

How long does an encore pilot have to wait at WestJet before upgrading? Can one flow through and upgrade if their seniority holds a vacancy right away?

The twenty people who have the carrot in front of the face have been at the company for a minimum of seven years so far.

[lostaviator]

We were told class of 20 flow from Encore to WJ mainline on Jan 6 2026

We are getting 777's too!