Bitter person! Maybe you are scared because a "200 Hour Wonderpunk" might be able to fly better than you.Traf wrote:Again, Canada does not have to do it so they don't!!! There are plenty of guys with all kinds of time applying to Jazz and AC that are willing to take the pay hit. When that stops, maybe they will have to hire 200 wonderpunks!
To those of you who argue that a fresh college punk with no bad habits would be better to train, I say PFFFFFFT!!! I want to fly with a guy that has scared himself a few times and has made some mistakes and learned from them. Who wants to be there in a transposrt category aircraft while junior is learning the dos and don'ts of flying.
Jazz Cadet program??
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
-
DAVE THE RAVE
- Rank 1
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:43 am
- Location: AT A MEGA CLUB NEAR U
Yeah you caught me. That is definately it!
Listen moron, I have flown with people with all mixes of time and the simple facts are that people fly differently at different stages of experience. A 200 hour pilot does not fly like a 2000 hour pilot. PERIOD!!! No amount of college education can replace experience.
You can't tell me that everyone that goes through a cadet or college program is a a flying genius either. I am a college grad, have flown with college grads and like any sector of aviation, they have their share of good and bad pilots (even Seneca contrary to what they tell you).
There is a reason AC and Jazz hire people with more than 200 hours when they ar enot forced to. Only a 200 hour pilot would not know the difference.
OVER!!!
Listen moron, I have flown with people with all mixes of time and the simple facts are that people fly differently at different stages of experience. A 200 hour pilot does not fly like a 2000 hour pilot. PERIOD!!! No amount of college education can replace experience.
You can't tell me that everyone that goes through a cadet or college program is a a flying genius either. I am a college grad, have flown with college grads and like any sector of aviation, they have their share of good and bad pilots (even Seneca contrary to what they tell you).
There is a reason AC and Jazz hire people with more than 200 hours when they ar enot forced to. Only a 200 hour pilot would not know the difference.
OVER!!!
-
Kelowna Pilot
- Rank 6
- Posts: 481
- Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:48 am
Why is it so difficult for people to realise that experience does count for something? The difference between a 3000-4000 hour pilot is not noticeable but I will not apologise for saying there is a difference between a 250 hour pilot's ability and a 2-3000 hour pilot's ability. They may be safe and may be able to follow the SOPs but with time, they become smoother pilots, more confident and are a lot less work to fly with. On top of that, every year that a pilot puts 1000 hours under his belt, he makes good and bad decisions. During that time, he should be learning, especially from the mistakes.
I don't give a shit if in Europe they throw 13 year olds in the right seat, we don't have to in Canada so we don't unless forced into that situation.
I guarantee that if I take pilot A and throw him into any aircraft at 250 hours and then take that same pilot 3000 hours later and do the same that he will fly it better and smoother. Why are you guys so stuck on 250 hours anyhow? Is that the magic number? Everything you need to know is learned by 250 hours and some college time? Why stop there? Why not go to 100 hours? Why not 15 hours? Hell, I bet if we teach enough SOPs and do enough sim work, a fellow with no time could fly as well as a 10000 hour pilot.
Obviously there is something behind experience as AC, Jazz, WJ, Skyservice, Transat, Zoom, Transport and the insurance companies all have requirements based on time and very few based on education. Yes AC does have a college or university requirement but that is simply to further narrow their choices.
I don;t care if it is flying or baking, experince counts for something. Period!!!
I don't give a shit if in Europe they throw 13 year olds in the right seat, we don't have to in Canada so we don't unless forced into that situation.
I guarantee that if I take pilot A and throw him into any aircraft at 250 hours and then take that same pilot 3000 hours later and do the same that he will fly it better and smoother. Why are you guys so stuck on 250 hours anyhow? Is that the magic number? Everything you need to know is learned by 250 hours and some college time? Why stop there? Why not go to 100 hours? Why not 15 hours? Hell, I bet if we teach enough SOPs and do enough sim work, a fellow with no time could fly as well as a 10000 hour pilot.
Obviously there is something behind experience as AC, Jazz, WJ, Skyservice, Transat, Zoom, Transport and the insurance companies all have requirements based on time and very few based on education. Yes AC does have a college or university requirement but that is simply to further narrow their choices.
I don;t care if it is flying or baking, experince counts for something. Period!!!
-
Kelowna Pilot
- Rank 6
- Posts: 481
- Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:48 am
Traf,
Not many would disagree with you that experience is valuable (I agree 100 percent). I also agree 100 percent that there is no shortage of highly qualified drivers out there willing to work for AC (even if the wages for the first couple years are beyond pathetic).
My point is that, in theory, AC could implement a Cadet program if they wanted to.
They could turn it into a real revenue source as not only could they pay the FO's extremely low wages (and easily get away with it), they could also make money on the training program itself.
There is no shortage of people out there willing to plop down $100,000 plus for training if it gauranteed them a spot at AC for $10,000 a year to start.
Aviation is driven more by emotion than common sense (especially for pilots), so I could see Milton easily doing this. Milton's job is to make money for AC shareholders. Pilots are just a necessary evil - a commodity of sorts. If Milton can make even more money off pilots, then he'd be a fool not to.
Not many would disagree with you that experience is valuable (I agree 100 percent). I also agree 100 percent that there is no shortage of highly qualified drivers out there willing to work for AC (even if the wages for the first couple years are beyond pathetic).
My point is that, in theory, AC could implement a Cadet program if they wanted to.
They could turn it into a real revenue source as not only could they pay the FO's extremely low wages (and easily get away with it), they could also make money on the training program itself.
There is no shortage of people out there willing to plop down $100,000 plus for training if it gauranteed them a spot at AC for $10,000 a year to start.
Aviation is driven more by emotion than common sense (especially for pilots), so I could see Milton easily doing this. Milton's job is to make money for AC shareholders. Pilots are just a necessary evil - a commodity of sorts. If Milton can make even more money off pilots, then he'd be a fool not to.
I hope what you are proposing never happens. This country is already filled witha bunch of lowballers who will work for nothing. If what you say ever came true, it would be limited to low ballers with a lot of money.
As for the savings, it may not be as cut and dry as you think. I am sure ACs insurance would get a hefty bump if they wanted to fill the skys with 250 hour pilots. It only takes one major accident to really "F" things up for a company. With 250 hour pilots everywhere, all you are doing is increasing the odds.
But on a more serious note WTF DID AVCANADA DO WITH MY AVATAR????!!!!
As for the savings, it may not be as cut and dry as you think. I am sure ACs insurance would get a hefty bump if they wanted to fill the skys with 250 hour pilots. It only takes one major accident to really "F" things up for a company. With 250 hour pilots everywhere, all you are doing is increasing the odds.
But on a more serious note WTF DID AVCANADA DO WITH MY AVATAR????!!!!
-
Kelowna Pilot
- Rank 6
- Posts: 481
- Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:48 am
If someone who actually knows from AC or WJ or the insurance companies is reading this, I'd be interested to know how much extra insurance it costs to hire a low time pilot on a jet.
Putting 200 hour pilots in jets is done all the time in Asia and Europe. Apparently it doesn't cause safety problems because these companies crash no more than airliners with high time pilots in both seats it seams
So is Ryanair, British Airways, Luthstansa, etc., subject to different insurance requirements than AC or WJ?
Putting 200 hour pilots in jets is done all the time in Asia and Europe. Apparently it doesn't cause safety problems because these companies crash no more than airliners with high time pilots in both seats it seams
So is Ryanair, British Airways, Luthstansa, etc., subject to different insurance requirements than AC or WJ?
-
squawk 7600
- Rank 4
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:36 am
There are two kinds of pilots on this thread....the pilots for the supposed cadet progam and the pilots against it. The ones for it are the 200 hr wonders that think they are too damn good to go up north and work the dock for a few seasons, then get on and get some experience. They are fresh out of college and think their shit doesn't stink! Trust me, I know because I was just like you many years ago. I thought I was the cats ass coming out of Seneca with "Aviaiton" written on my jacket. Well, I sure as hell learned alot. And let me tell you, your shit stinks to high heaven!
So all I have to say to you little 200 hr wonders...."get the hell north and pay your damn dues like the rest of us you lazy little pukes!"
So all I have to say to you little 200 hr wonders...."get the hell north and pay your damn dues like the rest of us you lazy little pukes!"
OH MY FUCKING GOD!!!!!!! You win!!! YOU WIN!!!
Forget experience, forget time in the book, every 200 hour fucking wonderdick should go direct entry capatin in any airplane because holy @#$!, THEY DO IT IN ASIA AND EUROPE!!!
HAIL ASIA< HAIL EUROPE!!! YOU WIN!!!! They have siesta in Italy, let's all take a fucking nap! They eat sushi in ASIA, fish anyone? In honour of Kelowna Pilots argument, I am going to drive down the left side of the road tonight because, @#$! me, they do it in some European countries. Lock up your cats and dogs folks because I am sure somewhere in the world they eat them so they must be good and I need snack!!!
Yes you are right, they do it in Europe and Asia so we better get on it over here! OMG, what we were thinkning wanting pilots with a little time under their belts flying our airplanes! In fact, I think we should fire all the current airline pilots and fill the cockpits with fresh grads as I am sure the skies become more and more unsafe as Canadian guys aquire experience!
You win, argument over. Yep they do it in Europe so in theory they could do it here. I will be calling my boss 1st thing in the morning and asking him to cancel all the interviews he has scheduled for the future and giving him the phone number of all the colleges in Canada so we can scoop up the right guys for the job and save a shitload of money! Man, just think of how well this company is going to do now. Make sure you sit and wait by the phone for your phonecalls!!!
Retard!!!!!!!!!!!
Forget experience, forget time in the book, every 200 hour fucking wonderdick should go direct entry capatin in any airplane because holy @#$!, THEY DO IT IN ASIA AND EUROPE!!!
HAIL ASIA< HAIL EUROPE!!! YOU WIN!!!! They have siesta in Italy, let's all take a fucking nap! They eat sushi in ASIA, fish anyone? In honour of Kelowna Pilots argument, I am going to drive down the left side of the road tonight because, @#$! me, they do it in some European countries. Lock up your cats and dogs folks because I am sure somewhere in the world they eat them so they must be good and I need snack!!!
Yes you are right, they do it in Europe and Asia so we better get on it over here! OMG, what we were thinkning wanting pilots with a little time under their belts flying our airplanes! In fact, I think we should fire all the current airline pilots and fill the cockpits with fresh grads as I am sure the skies become more and more unsafe as Canadian guys aquire experience!
You win, argument over. Yep they do it in Europe so in theory they could do it here. I will be calling my boss 1st thing in the morning and asking him to cancel all the interviews he has scheduled for the future and giving him the phone number of all the colleges in Canada so we can scoop up the right guys for the job and save a shitload of money! Man, just think of how well this company is going to do now. Make sure you sit and wait by the phone for your phonecalls!!!
Retard!!!!!!!!!!!
-
Kelowna Pilot
- Rank 6
- Posts: 481
- Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:48 am
200 hour pilots don't become Captains in Europe. They become FOs.Forget experience, forget time in the book, every 200 hour fucking wonderdick should go direct entry capatin in any airplane because holy @#$!, THEY DO IT IN ASIA AND EUROPE!!!
The UK is not part of Europe.In honour of Kelowna Pilots argument, I am going to drive down the left side of the road tonight because, @#$! me, they do it in some European countries.
The point is that in Europe and Asia it's been demonstrated that, contrary to Canadian thinking, you don't need 5,000 hours to competently fly as an FO on an Airbus.Yes you are right, they do it in Europe and Asia so we better get on it over here!
Better not go to Europe. The skies must be very unsafe there. Ryanair is hiring loads of 200 hours pilots for the 737s.I think we should fire all the current airline pilots and fill the cockpits with fresh grads as I am sure the skies become more and more unsafe as Canadian guys aquire experience!
Now you're thinking like a real Company Man! You have a bright future in airline management!will be calling my boss 1st thing in the morning and asking him to cancel all the interviews he has scheduled for the future and giving him the phone number of all the colleges in Canada so we can scoop up the right guys for the job and save a shitload of money!
Sorry to burst the bubble on your rant. First of all I'm not your cliche "College grad". I didn't go to a flying college. I am however a captian for a major european airline, who flies often with your beloved "200 Hourwonder". And guess what, they are fine and quite capable of flying a jet. As for calling them "lazy pukes", that was kind of unwarranted to say the least. The F/Os I fly with have put in a great deal of work to be where they are now. I'm not on this thread to knock those who go up north to gain experience. Canadian aviation is a tough nut to crack, at the best of times.squawk 7600 wrote:There are two kinds of pilots on this thread....the pilots for the supposed cadet progam and the pilots against it. The ones for it are the 200 hr wonders that think they are too damn good to go up north and work the dock for a few seasons, then get on and get some experience. They are fresh out of college and think their shit doesn't stink! Trust me, I know because I was just like you many years ago. I thought I was the cats ass coming out of Seneca with "Aviaiton" written on my jacket. Well, I sure as hell learned alot. And let me tell you, your shit stinks to high heaven!
So all I have to say to you little 200 hr wonders...."get the hell north and pay your damn dues like the rest of us you lazy little pukes!"
I'm just trying to give some of you a different perspective of how things are done in other parts of the world, and quite safely so might I add. I agree experience does count for something, nobody can take that away from you. If a 200 fresh grad showed up on my door step with a 3000 hour king air captain, yes of course the King Air captian would get the job. As I said earlier in this thread, SUPPLY AND DEMAND. That is both the luxury, and the hard part of Canadian aviation. Airlines have a large pool of experience to draw from, which increases the competition and numbers these carriers can ask for.
As I said, experience does count. But I do have a problem with some of you who think flying a big jet is reserved for those who have 4-5000 hours. Not so... In Canada it happens because of, ..SUPPLY AND DEMAND.
I don't believe anyone on here said it took 4-5000 hours to fly a jet, I think the idea is we would rather fly with someone with alittle more then a freshly printed license and a keen interest – alittle experience is also preferred. Wouldn’t you?
And being Canada, with its supply and demand, this cadet program it’s nothing more than a fantastic rumor.
That being said, I am glad I went up north, it was and probably among the best experiences of my career. I am glad we here in Canada have those opportunity’s to experience a semblance of what the early pioneers got to experience. With much more comforts of course…
And being Canada, with its supply and demand, this cadet program it’s nothing more than a fantastic rumor.
That being said, I am glad I went up north, it was and probably among the best experiences of my career. I am glad we here in Canada have those opportunity’s to experience a semblance of what the early pioneers got to experience. With much more comforts of course…
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Traf...
no need to get too excited, first it does not happen yet in Canada, second you must have more than 200 so why get so upset...you will get a shot at it first.
this is just a discussion, all we is being said is that it could be done.
Also this is a rumor, and there do more harms than good.
there are lots of cadet programs around the world, and they work unfortunatly.
it might be the way of the future. Most majors do it.
I am not saying i am for it.
But if you work hard, you will get to where you want to go.
Good luck.
no need to get too excited, first it does not happen yet in Canada, second you must have more than 200 so why get so upset...you will get a shot at it first.
this is just a discussion, all we is being said is that it could be done.
Also this is a rumor, and there do more harms than good.
there are lots of cadet programs around the world, and they work unfortunatly.
it might be the way of the future. Most majors do it.
I am not saying i am for it.
But if you work hard, you will get to where you want to go.
Good luck.
Yeah I know all those things popo but like everyone is saying, we don't need it in Canada. I doubt AC would do it even if it could save them some money.
Kelowna pilot's mind is made up and all he wanted was to hear he was right so I let him have that. Yes they could do a cadet program in Canada!!! There, I said it again. Let's not forget that if Brad Pitt and all the other men in the world died, Kelowna pilot would have a shot with Angelina! Just like the cadet program, until the issue is forced, it probably won't happen but hey, in theory, IT COULD!!!
Call me when either event becomes a reality.
Kelowna pilot's mind is made up and all he wanted was to hear he was right so I let him have that. Yes they could do a cadet program in Canada!!! There, I said it again. Let's not forget that if Brad Pitt and all the other men in the world died, Kelowna pilot would have a shot with Angelina! Just like the cadet program, until the issue is forced, it probably won't happen but hey, in theory, IT COULD!!!
Call me when either event becomes a reality.
-
arewethereyet
- Rank 3
- Posts: 105
- Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:30 pm
- Location: T/O
traf... dont fall for it man.. these captains who fly with the 200 hour wonders are not only pilots, they are babysitters. they spank the little boys and girls everytime they make a mistake and have to watch them like hawks for the first few thousand hours. they micro-manage because the have too. in the long run only experience will turn anyone into a qualified and competent captain. however, from some of the above posts i would dare to say that some would like to see them go direct entry as captains on heavy's and fly the world.
I would hate to see a low time captain and a 200 hour wonder go into quito, equador at night in thunderstorms and on min fuel. now with that equation would you want your family or yourself onboard. i myself would choose two EXPERIENCED pilots. better to gain some experience the old fashion way. start from the bottom, fly a little... and then fly hundreds and hundreds of peolple thousands and thousands of miles away!
I would hate to see a low time captain and a 200 hour wonder go into quito, equador at night in thunderstorms and on min fuel. now with that equation would you want your family or yourself onboard. i myself would choose two EXPERIENCED pilots. better to gain some experience the old fashion way. start from the bottom, fly a little... and then fly hundreds and hundreds of peolple thousands and thousands of miles away!
-
Kelowna Pilot
- Rank 6
- Posts: 481
- Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:48 am
Good point, I for one will never put my wife and daughter on another Central Mountain Air Flight again (they hire low time FOs).
Just too risky, especially given that a B1900 is probably a lot more demanding to fly than an Airbus given it's lack of automatics and all the other gizmos.
Just too risky, especially given that a B1900 is probably a lot more demanding to fly than an Airbus given it's lack of automatics and all the other gizmos.
-
Dark Helmet
- Rank 6
- Posts: 493
- Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:59 pm
-
tonysoprano
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2589
- Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:01 pm
-
Dark Helmet
- Rank 6
- Posts: 493
- Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:59 pm
Yes I am aware it is an island. Does that mean that Madagascar is not an African nation, or that Japan is not an Asian country. Well I guess that Baffin island, Newfoudland, and P.E.I are not really part of North America then.
England is an European nation, it is part of the EU. Just because it is an Island does not make it so.
Anyways who really cares right. I know, it is a dumb topic to be discussing anyways.
Merry Christmas
Take care
DH
England is an European nation, it is part of the EU. Just because it is an Island does not make it so.
Anyways who really cares right. I know, it is a dumb topic to be discussing anyways.
Merry Christmas
Take care
DH
-
tonysoprano
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2589
- Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:01 pm
OK we all know that flying is not terribly hard, otherwise most of us wouldn't be doing it. Flying jets is probably the easiest of all of them. That's why putting a 200hr pilot in the RIGHT seat of a 737NG or Airbus, is not terribly difficult. The automation, FMS, etc makes it easier. More button pushing than actual flying skills. Plus the SOP's built specifically for this.
I flew with low-time (less than 500hrs) FO's on Dash-8's in the Caribbean, and they were all fine. Granted the weather was good all the time, but they could get used to that quick.
Canadian airlines don't need to hire low time pilots, if the day ever comes that it's required, they will. So stop dreaming about, go instruct, go work up north, build your time like almost everyone else in this country had to do.
I flew with low-time (less than 500hrs) FO's on Dash-8's in the Caribbean, and they were all fine. Granted the weather was good all the time, but they could get used to that quick.
Canadian airlines don't need to hire low time pilots, if the day ever comes that it's required, they will. So stop dreaming about, go instruct, go work up north, build your time like almost everyone else in this country had to do.
