Legality of Training Bonds?

['effin hippie]

Didn't think so.

Good luck to you too, my little socialist agitator.

ef

[goldeneagle]

oh how short our memory's are, Anyone of you remember JETSGO, holy hell, smarten up you guys, Bonds are not helping us.

And this just proves, you dont know what a bond is. Jetsgo didnt have training bonds, they had a system of 'pilot financed training', thats where an individual pilot ponied up the full cost of training, on the promise it would be repaid over time. In essence, the pilots were giving JG an unsecured loan for the cost of the training, and in the end, they became unsecured creditors when the operation shut down. Unsecured creditors are normally out in the cold when there is a bankruptcy, be it an individual or a company going bankrupt makes no difference, the unsecured creditor is stuck holding the bag. If JG was actually using any kind of actual 'bond', then the pilots would not have been out in the cold, it would have been the JG corporation, or, some third party providing bond type insurance, that was out in the cold. There is a HUGE difference between a 'bond' and an 'unsecured loan'. Sadly, most of the folks signing that agreement didn't realize what it really was, and, used thier own homes to actually secure the loan from financial institutions.

Read up on what a bond really is, then come back and talk. Make sure you fully understand the difference between 'pilot purchased training' and a 'bond'. Eplain to me the difference between a 'promisory note with a forgiveness schedule' where the pilots signature and/or handshake is the 'bond', and an up front payment which is a purchase.

Bonds are not a bad thing, they put some legal teeth into the agreement. For reliable hard working folks, they are a non-event, reference the word reliable, that persons word was good without the paperwork. For unreliable folks (and sadly, this industry has way to many of those), it puts some legal bite into the agreement, keeping some stability around for the rest of the folks. A lot of the bonds currently out there are indeed for an amount far less than the actual cost of training, but, it's just enough to make one think twice about leaving.

But hey, this is still a free country. If a company wants a bond from you, there is still the option to say no, and go look elsewhere for a flying gig. There is absolutely no pressure forcing you to take that job with the bond you so despise, and, there's plenty of other folks in line, happy to take it. And, on the flip side, it is a free country, so, a company is free to hire whomever they please, it is NOT your god given right to fly that big airplane you drool over, it's a privelege that somebody else grants you. And, if you dont like that concept, feel free to pony up a few million dollars, go buy your own big airplane, and go fly it around the country all day long. It is my understanding, there's a whole lot of aluminum headed to, and already parked in the desert, a signficant amount of which is available today at bargain basement rates. After you get that big airplane, and start offering jobs with no bond, there will be plenty of folks lining up to get the type rating on your nickel, and, more than half of them will likely be scouring the net for the next job, from the hotel room at flitesafety while on the course you are funding for them. But then again, that's ok, because you will be the greedy manager who's money they are spending, which makes it all ok.

[outsider]

well some of what you say makes sense. How about a six month bond, and after that an employee evaluation. If the evaluation is a good one then the bond can be lifted, however I still don't agree with a 2 year bond. And I don't fly the big metal you suggest. How about this situation.
Take a honorable hard working pilot who works for one of our more ratty company's. He is on the job for a year and is offered a better position in a place he wants to live but says no due to his 2 year bond, next month the company he works at loses a mail contract and he gets laid off. In this case he has missed a great opportunity. Can you justify that with the excuse of training cost. Do you think that the company's are loyal to us. whats wrong with incentives to make a person stay instead of holding their feat to the fire, how many people quit AC or Jazz, not many, but how many quit the small time because their fed up and want a better sked and pay. whats wrong with a performance based evaluation with a modest pay raise to keep someone around instead of keeping their feet to the fire and why is everyone taking the side of the smaller airlines let them come on here and make their own case, is there no one who thinks bonds are a bad idea. and u can call it a union or a pilot association or whatever but together we have more of chance.

[Doc]

I find this whole thread depressing. First, we have pilots not keeping their word to employers. Next, we have bonds, followed shortly thereafter by companies requiring up front payment for training. Then we have pilots swearing up and down on a "stack of bibles" that THEY can be taken at their word. Now we have a thread all about "how not" to honour our commitments. So, which way is it?

Did somebody hold a gun to your head to "sign" on the dotted line? I know I sure as hell didn't. I've been bloody ranting AGAINST these "bond" things since before there was sand. And, still you guys/gals line up at the doors of these operations, either willing to sign the "bond" and in some cases, willing to write a big cheque, to "buy" a job.

Well, YOU signed it. YOU should honour it. Grow some BALLS!

[outsider]

I agree if you signed one you should honor it, Like you I don't agree with them in the first place.

[sarg]

My apology for the length.

I find this whole thread depressing. First, we have pilots not keeping their word to employers. Next, we have bonds, followed shortly thereafter by companies requiring up front payment for training. Then we have pilots swearing up and down on a "stack of bibles" that THEY can be taken at their word. Now we have a thread all about "how not" to honour our commitments. So, which way is it?

Did somebody hold a gun to your head to "sign" on the dotted line? I know I sure as hell didn't. I've been bloody ranting AGAINST these "bond" things since before there was sand. And, still you guys/gals line up at the doors of these operations, either willing to sign the "bond" and in some cases, willing to write a big cheque, to "buy" a job.

Well, YOU signed it. YOU should honour it. Grow some BALLS!

Amen Doc, as I said honor your word and most of this would not have come to pass.

I completely disagree. How can you take the company's side. Its because of this idea that bonds are around. Why dont you take the pilots side and let the greedy managers worry about their bottom line. Worry about your own problems. What if they lose a contract, do you think a company will keep you on the payroll. NO. Oh and apprentices in trades make a hell of a lot more money then entry level pilots. Don't pick up for the company, let them fight their own battles. Bonds are wrong. A company has no right to keep you from bettering your self. They get their money back from training in the ridiculous low salary they pay. I can't believe any pilot would take the side of management over a bond. Its crazy. Most small company's are so greedy that if they could they would get you to work for free, are you nuts. Say no bonds.

By the way, where have you worked, I have been on many contract jobs, also did the ramp, did the airline non union/union, special air service and I can tell you that this bond business stinks, and it only flys at places where the boss intimidates the workers into not only bonds but things like fudging duty times, flying over gross and busting min's. So instead of licking some ones butt why dont you fight for your own.

Outsider, you didn't comment on my example of the MD's, I guess it didn't fit with your rant so I'll try some from the trades you like. CP rail is advertising for an apprentice railcar mechanic, wage at $38,521/year, ya I know greedy company/manager. This position requires 2 -5 years relevant work experience, I'm guessing that there is probably 12 companies nation wide that railcar mechanics. So a limited work force might even be keeping this wage at a premium. Now a quick search of the job ads here, that had salaries posted showed Oracle Geoscience at $39,600 assuming 180 days worked, Missionair at $64K and Alberta Fuel at $82K all Navajo positions. I'm guessing with 2 -5 years relevant work experience a pilot would get one of these jobs. Now I lost the link but an Edmonton company was lokking for a 2nd year apprentice locksmith at about $29K/year, so I'm not quite buying that "apprentices in trades make a hell of a lot more money then entry level pilots." It may be true for some trades but not all. By the way that railcar mechanic is going to spend 4 years and approx. 6,000 hrs learning his trade before he is certified. Some links included.

CP job ad
http://jobview.monster.ca/GetJob.aspx?J ... g=1&seq=10

Trade Profile railcar mechanic from TradesBC
http://itabc.ca/forms/BC/profile/Railwa ... rofile.pdf

So outsider some questions, as a contract pilot have left a job even though the company was fullfilling their end of the contract? If so what happened? Did the company ever terminate the contract early? If so what happened? Or are you really just a term position pilot calling yourself a contract pilot. A contract requires consideration given for consideration recieved. In the case of a cost recovery agreement (bond) it's training/PPC for length of service. Like all contracts they serve a purpose. And the company should be willing to put any promises made in the bond as well. I would be careful of what you espouse I'm sure most small companies would love to have pilots as a trade group. Your CPL would the 10-20% class work required and then another 4+ years and 3-6,000 hours of apprenticeship. The added benifit is that those of us already in the trade would get to determine the number of new trades permitted in each years and the training requirements, thereby ensuring that supply doesn't exceed demand by too much keeping wages up. Again some links.

http://www.tradesbc.org/toolkit/process.htm

Just to clairify somethings for you Air Canada pilots decertified their union and formed ACPA which for their purpose acts like a union. While INCO and Toyota Canada maybe non union shops I'm sure they pay near union rates without the employees having to pay union dues. This may make the company look good by saying to it's employee we'll pay you union rate, the company never has to suffer the loss of revenue that a strike would cause. Pilots leave Jazz all the time, just ask Westjet where the pilots for those groundschools every 3 weeks are coming from.

On a personal note I've signed bonds twice in my career. Both asked for a 1 year commitent both times I stayed well in excess of the required time commitment. I both cases I made more than 95% of the pilots flying similar types nationwide, so it's not just greedy, cheap, corrupt companies that feel the need to be protected by bonds.

One last link.

http://www.acpa.ca/index.php?q=becoming ... -of-ethics

The Role of the Apprentice

To locate an employer willing to undertake them as an apprentice.
To become a registered apprentice with the Industry Training Authority
To know what is involved in your trade: to learn; to apply skill; and to work diligently and honestly for your employer.
To take control of your own training and learning. You are responsible for your own success. You are responsible for selecting a recognized training institution that will meet your technical training needs.
To maintain your Apprenticeship Record Book and ensure that your learning experiences are accounted for in a useable format.
To work safely and familiarize yourself with the safety rules and regulations of each jobsite you encounter.

My last thought maybe if we all, pilot and companies, live with integrity and honor we would not need to see it in print and mission statements so often.

You asked how I can side with management on this; after 20 years in this industry I've seen enough people who would step over their own mother to get 1/2 a step ahead.

[outsider]

well that's a long thought out post, and you make some good points. But to me your just another example of a pilot pushing the side of management. I think those people are smart enough and big enough to fight their own battles. If someone signed a bond they should honor it. If someone said they will stay for certain agreed on time then they should honor it. I don't think two year bonds are fair to us. I will go along with a six month bond. I think they recover their training cost in the very small earnings new pilots make. So what happens when a company loses a contract and pilots get laid off, what if one of those pilots turned down a better job before he got laid off due to his bond. I don't agree with jumping ship whenever it suits us ether , but bonds are the way of putting all the responsibility on the pilot. Do you think it is fair to bond a new pilot for two years who has just spent 40,000 on flight school, worked the ramp for a year, and earns 20,000 per year gross. If so then you have to better explain your argument to me, because I am not convinced it is fair at all.

[sarg]

Outsider, I've told you why I stand where I do. I've see enough pilots screw over there employers taking PPCs when they had no intention of staying to know why companies want legal protection. You haven't answer a question yet though are you really a contract pilot or just a term employee? I know that if I contract even if the company doesn't have the work for me I expect to get my contract paid out or be sued if I fail to fullfill my contracted obligation.

Just to be clear buying your job is wrong, but if you do be well aware of the risk. I think that cost recovery agreements (bonds) should be no longer than 1 year, possible exception being 705 aircraft.

The cost of training is a non starting arguement, regardless of your choosen career pilot, truckdriver or MD, you should have done the research about the costs of training and work conditions. Doctors spend 8+ years in training have an average debt approaching $140,000, then spend 2 - 7 years as interns at very low pay to have a starting wage in the $140,000 range.

To give you examples we have F/O A and F/O B, A goes to work for Lab Air and B for CMA the Dash8 and Do328 respectively. It's 2007 both are asked for a 2 year commitment CMA has a bond (no I'm not 100% sure if Lab Air does or not). After 1 year both or offered jobs at Jazz A says no because he given his word and B says no because of the bond, it's the fall 2008 and Jazz is talking layoffs and they both could be out of jobs reguardless. The world of what ifs are endless. At the end of 2 years the difference in pay between the 2 is $200 Air LAb $47,700/2 year term and CMA $47,500/2 year term, yes I think both numbers are too low for 705 F/Os. Air Lab is union, CMA is not, so unions don't always help. You could always hold out for the Calm Air SF340 job that pays $41,820/year to start, no bond mentioned, although Calm Air probably requires more experience in their hires.

So the question remains are you going to step over your mother to get 1/2 a step ahead? Or are you going to have some integrity , honesty and pay your dues? Both paths are open to you, and no paying for your license is not all that is required IMO.

Links.
http://www.carleton.ca/jmc/cnews/02022001/column.htm
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... m_air.html
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... n_air.html
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... rador.html

[outsider]

Well to answer your question, I am both, contract half the year and special service pilot the other half. I keep hearing your side of how pilots have no integrity and will step over their mother for a little more pay, yet I hear not a thing from you about the unscrupulous operators out there who intimate and push pilots into unsafe situations, who sometimes make them pay upfront and pay hardly nothing in wages. How many times have you been in a room where the pilot is the lowest paid professional. Why do you push so hard for them and so little for us. If your so big on integrity then how do you feel about short term lay offs that are in the company's best interest. Well at least that gets someone out of a bond. I do believe that paying for flight school is good enough. No one works to be more in dept and be backed into a legal corner, we work at our careers to get ahead in life. Is there no one out there who thinks two year bonds are a bad idea. No wonder we are one the lowest paid group of professionals.

[outsider]

And here is another point, If airline B hires a pilot away from Airline A knowing he was bonded then they are guilty as well, and it would serve them right if Airline C did it to them, but nothing will get through to you "YES SIR" types so sign your rights away and good luck with you careers. I'm out and finished with this dead horse forum .

[xsbank]

I think I agree with the 2-year committment being too long, largely because if you are earning revenue, the lower salary should compensate for the revenue you have earned for them. On a CBAA aircraft, you are a cost only, you will not be expected to be earning revenue although you might argue that point if your aircraft also does charters; for a purely personal aircraft or for a corporation, you are in the cost column and asking you to stay for 2 years to amortize your training costs still seems reasonable.

Whatever the length of the term asked for, if you agree to it you have formed a contract, written or verbal, and your committment should be honoured by both sides.

I am totally against money-up-front.