Sudbury to shut down tower and become FSS...WTF

[...]

There is something missing to this equation of discussion...what does the customer want?

And what is the customer willing to pay for? As was pointed out earlier, Nav Canada runs on a cost-recovery basis, they arn't allowed to run a profit. Any savings as a result of this decision would be passed on to the customers, or be used to increase the level of service elsewhere. Any additional costs from running a tower would also be passed on.

(I'm not saying it is or isn't worth it, only that there are costs associated with keeping the tower open, just as there are costs associated with keeping slower FSS sites open)

So........you're saying that prices going up is the theme to expect in the future? Oh my...that's shocking!

Show me a service of product that stays at the same price never rising in cost and I'll show you a Georgian Pilot landing a Be02 in under 1000'....IT' AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN!!!

PS: if I hear you say "cost-recovery basis" again...I'm going to puke. That term is used by capitalists in business ventures that don't have the kiwi's to call it for what it is...CUTTING services and jobs. Wow...that's being responsible to your staff. Cowards. Do me a huge favor...never use that term in this topic because it does not belong here. Nav Canada is a non-profit organization for the most part. "cost-recovery basis" pphhhtt....that's like using the word "synergies".

Those FSS folks on Navcanada's payrole that seem to think this is securing more jobs and options for you to live...

Well it is, though most of us are under no illusions about the motivations behind it. 9-10 more FSS postings is a side effect of the decision, not the intent. Dawson Creek BC was closed down a year or two ago, a few other stations in BC that are co-located with towers closed as well.

I love being right...but hate saying it. However...thank you.
I'm not saying you folks are cheering when one of your colleagues loses his/her job...but I'm sure you're not offering to help move their furniture when they are leaving town.

[lilfssister]

I guess Birddog's drinking buddy missed the meeting(s?) Fedex attended:

http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefiniti ... udy_en.pdf


3.2 Consultation
Representatives from the NAV CANADA Level of Service Review Team met with customers and other stakeholders in a number of different forums. The purpose of these meetings was to obtain needs, issues and concerns with respect to the level of service review.
A list of stakeholders and customers consulted is included in Appendix A.

APPENDIX A
List of Stakeholders
Sudbury Chamber of Commerce
Bearskin Airlines
Bombardier
Central North Flying Club
Day Helicopter Services
Eagle Flight
Fedex
Gateway Helicopters
Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources
Sudbury Airport Commission
Sudbury Aviation
Sunwing Vacations
Thunder Airlines
Transport Canada
Wasaya Airways
NAV CANADA – Toronto ACC North Bay Speciality
Private Pilot Owners - Sudbury
Ontario Ministry of Health
Voyageur Airlines
Air Georgian
Flight Exec
Discovery Air
Air Canada Jazz

[the_professor]

PS: if I hear you say "cost-recovery basis" again...I'm going to puke. That term is used by capitalists in business ventures that don't have the kiwi's to call it for what it is...CUTTING services and jobs. Wow...that's being responsible to your staff. Cowards. Do me a huge favor...never use that term in this topic because it does not belong here. Nav Canada is a non-profit organization for the most part. "cost-recovery basis" pphhhtt....that's like using the word "synergies".

Uh, what? The company charges whatever is required to meet its costs. Calling it "non-profit" vs. "cost recovery" is purely semantics, and has nothing to do with cutting services or jobs. Thanks for the cynicism though.

And Nav Canada does not just cut, cut, cut, as some on here would have us believe. I will remind you that NC is in the process of spending millions to add ADS-B coverage to the far north, complete with customized antennas designed in-house by NC technicians.

This has the potential to save the airlines (and thus the travelling public, who pay for NC's operation) hundreds of thousands of dollars per year once operational. And eventually aircraft low-level in the north will benefit from this technology once the on-board equipment becomes more affordable.

[the_professor]

Oh he's large and almost incharge. He had no idea about what was going on @ Sudbury with the closing of the tower. Let's just say he ain't happy.

If I was his boss, I wouldn't be happy with him. Maybe that's why he's almost in charge -- because he's not good enough to be in charge if he didn't even realize that FedEx had been consulted...

[bigfssguy]

This is a great topic and a great debate! For the people think that there is some division between FSS and ATC, your partly wrong. Back in the day i hear the horror stories where at the building formerly known as NCTI, where FSS didnt talk to IFR or VFR and vice versa. there was a large division between the groups and everyone thought they were better than the others.

Things are changing for the better in that department, or at least from what i have experienced in my 51/2 years. I probably had more friends in IFR and VFR than i had in my own class. People have to stop looking at the different groups and seeing differences, were all just cogs in a wheel where we can't do our jobs without the others doing theres. that goes for the Flight data people, the techs, the secretaries and yes even the managers.

is there differences in levels of service....well of course there is, they are designed with that specific intent in mind. Will things slow down in YSB becaseu there isn;t a tower......wel of course they will. Will you notice a huge difference in the way you operate....in some instances yes but for the vast majority of time NO!

Life will go on, planes will fly and people will make there connections. Now does this mean you shouldn;t voice any concerns or issues to NC...no give'er. That is the wonderful part of being a democratic society, we can bitch and complain all we want its our right. So if you dont like what NC does then by all means stand up and yell, but in the meantime remember wear all just trying to do our job. It's too bad for the controllers in YSB but we'll manage to keep your seats warm, remember that you may be warming our seats soon in some other situations.

[JigglyBus]

Bigfssguy.....

Can you clarify the statement "remember that you may be warming our seats soon in some other situations"?

[bigfssguy]

Bigfssguy.....

Can you clarify the statement "remember that you may be warming our seats soon in some other situations"?

No, nothing but rumours.

[JigglyBus]

I thought so.....

Truthfully I would be completely at ease if they openned/upgraded even one.

Even if three closed and only one new one openned, at least we could see that there's a plan beyond just saving money.

But, at this point, it doesn't appear that way.

[thatdaveguy]

Sudbury's movements since 2002:

2006: 35,702
2005: 42,214
2004: 38,214
2003: 58,702
2002: 70,451

As you can see, the airport is in a large decline over the last 5 years. By the logic in this thread, any FSS with over 35,702 movements should become a tower....which is close to half of them.

The fact is Sudbury is not busy enough to be a tower. Sioux Lookout will never be a tower with only 32,437 movements.

You guys should be fighting for increased power for Flight Service Specialists if you want increased service. This would expedite aircraft movements in regional airports nationwide and keep costs low.

The number for a tower is 60,000 movements. Any tower with less movements than that are for purely political reasons. Clearly, someone in NC thinks no one gives a hoot about Sudbury so they can finally shut it.

As a side note, Mirabel tower is shutting down to become an FSS in the near future.

[tower controller]

Someone mentioned it is hard to start a tower back up. Maybe someone in the NC camp can explain how it would be done. So much of the training involves local on the job mentoring. If Fort Mac or Sour Outlook got a tower how would they even make that happen safely??

Back in the day when we used to open towers in some places (ie Fort Nelson) for the fire season it was a matter of "ok here's your licence".......

I can see the company doing basically the same thing with Fort Mac or YXL, however, I don't know what the liability would be from Nav Canada's point of view though.

In my own opinion the only reason there isn't a tower in YMM today is because the company can't figure out how to staff it. They don't want only junior controllers there, and no senior VFR controllers want to go there, because as busy as it is, it would still only be an ATC 1 and nobody want's to go to YMM for ATC 1 pay.

[grimey]

because as busy as it is, it would still only be an ATC 1 and nobody want's to go to YMM for ATC 1 pay.

Just as nobody wants to go there for FSS-3 pay. Until NC and the unions are willing to start paying large premiums to those who live in high cost of living cities, it'll be hard to staff those sites with experienced staff. On the plus side, NC has stopped sending FSS NCTI grads there, though only very recently.

[grimey]

You guys should be fighting for increased power for Flight Service Specialists if you want increased service. This would expedite aircraft movements in regional airports nationwide and keep costs low.

What additional powers are you suggesting that wouldn't require and ATC license?

[2milefinal]

If its all about numbers... then why is NC going to bother with a FS STATION, why not just shut the whole thing down and let London take care of it via remote. Just think of the money and time NC could save.


"And Nav Canada does not just cut, cut, cut, as some on here would have us believe. I will remind you that NC is in the process of spending millions to add ADS-B coverage to the far north, complete with customized antennas designed in-house by NC technicians."

Who is this going to benefit?
When is it going to be operational?

[Driving Rain]

I hope all is well with you and the wife! Missed ya this year again in Burlington...that's 2 years in a row.

Sorry about that Birddog. I did spend a little time down there this year but was very busy. My kid got married in Aug.

I'm watching this thread with interest because YSB is now my home base. I don't know what to make of it though. I'm grateful for all the well thoughtout replies. Very educational

If you've been watching other threads you'll know that I'm moving to Owen Sound at the end of Jan. I'm not that far away...do you ski?

I'd love to have a Landrover Defender with the 3.0-litre turbodiesel
Do you think the MNR would miss the Jet A?

[bigfssguy]

Who is this going to benefit?
When is it going to be operational?

The churchill tower and equipment for ADS-B was installed and tested last month and should be online sometime in the next few months. I'm not sure what they have to add into the centers so they can use this but i imagine it ahs been in the works for some time as well. It will affect the high flyers that cross the arctic via procedural seperation (200ft 5miles?? Controllers please correct) Now they will be able to fly with radar seperation and from what i understand even RVSM sep standards. Meaning they can use more economical routes, better altitudes and even more planes.

It will save the operators a lot of money, will it affect the small guys. Not right away, it will as the equipment and instrumentation becomes cheaper. Imagine getting radars vectors into moosenee and flying a WAADS satellite GPS based ILS approach.....someday it will happen but it will take sometime.

[...]

This perhaps the best thread I've read in a long time. The logistics behind the doors of Navcanada have so many layers...it's all very very ...umm...stinking of suits. You know...people with all the answers, but no solutions....suits.

From what I understand...YSB is gone and efforts to overturn it are futile. I still call bullshit. If "kicking it olde school with baseball bats to suits heads" were legal (or socially acceptable )...things would get done very quickly. However, until the rules of society continues to edge slightly over the rules of the jungle...I'll keep my toys in my truck tire compartment

If anything YSB will not be closed in vain. A petition may still go out and I think it should. Here is why;

If you all look into the dark corners of Navcanada's cyber halls...you'll find the following. Apparently those weekend warriors will not be allowed to fly VFR from one point to another through controlled class C airspace because you will be refused entry because from my guess Navcanada SUITS are NOT willing to pay their staff overtime to manage VFR traffic. Only IFR traffic will be handled. VFR will be told to beat it. The reason...IFR gets charged extra tariffs for one particular movement...VFR...well although you pay a yearly fee of 50 bucks...it means nothing. Your $100 hamburger will now cost you $200 because you'll have to fly away and around YYZ terminal.

Nice huh? Prices go up...service goes down.

I still think the SUITS @ Navcanada need to be sent a message. Enough is enough. Will a serial thief stop stealing because his conscience told him to? Nope. He'll only stop when he is caught and but in chains. I think Navcanada needs to be sent a message.... OR YOU CAN BE TYPICAL CANADIANS AND LAY DOWN AND TAKE IT. It's what we seem to do best anyway.

I've learned a lot...and my conclusion is the following...let aviation people deal with aviation matters...I'm not sure why suits with hardly any or no aviation experience are allowed to make such maneuvers. Cutting services is the easiest most brainless thing to do. Any monkey can do that. Then they get some low end totem pole guy to deliver the news to those effected...cowards. ALL cowards. Patting themselves on the back to come up with all the answers...but no solutions.

Oh he's large and almost incharge. He had no idea about what was going on @ Sudbury with the closing of the tower. Let's just say he ain't happy.

If I was his boss, I wouldn't be happy with him. Maybe that's why he's almost in charge -- because he's not good enough to be in charge if he didn't even realize that FedEx had been consulted...

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wow...that's some brilliant thoughts you put out there. You got all the answers huh skipper?

Hey I know you...you are either one of those guys that does not pick up a restaurant tab OR skips out on paying his share...OR you're one of the people that are profiting from a colleague's demise in YSB...Either way...I hope you don't get found out...that would be a bad thing.

I expect that right about now...you just ran of out "joke".

Beat it...only come back to this thread when your job is being cut...then I'll support you...until then ...MOVE OVER

[...]

I just wanted to say I enjoyed reading your contribution. Very well written.

This is a great topic and a great debate! For the people think that there is some division between FSS and ATC, your partly wrong. Back in the day i hear the horror stories where at the building formerly known as NCTI, where FSS didnt talk to IFR or VFR and vice versa. there was a large division between the groups and everyone thought they were better than the others.

Things are changing for the better in that department, or at least from what i have experienced in my 51/2 years. I probably had more friends in IFR and VFR than i had in my own class. People have to stop looking at the different groups and seeing differences, were all just cogs in a wheel where we can't do our jobs without the others doing theres. that goes for the Flight data people, the techs, the secretaries and yes even the managers.

is there differences in levels of service....well of course there is, they are designed with that specific intent in mind. Will things slow down in YSB becaseu there isn;t a tower......wel of course they will. Will you notice a huge difference in the way you operate....in some instances yes but for the vast majority of time NO!

Life will go on, planes will fly and people will make there connections. Now does this mean you shouldn;t voice any concerns or issues to NC...no give'er. That is the wonderful part of being a democratic society, we can bitch and complain all we want its our right. So if you dont like what NC does then by all means stand up and yell, but in the meantime remember wear all just trying to do our job. It's too bad for the controllers in YSB but we'll manage to keep your seats warm, remember that you may be warming our seats soon in some other situations.

[justplanecrazy]

Birddog, you've lost me on this one. I know a few people quite high up in Fedex and your comment about you knowing someone almost in charge, made me burst out laughing. The funny thing is that Fedex is run by suits as well. They don't go for beers, they go for single malt scotch somewhere where their $5,000 suits don't get stained and their Rolls Royces won't get mud on them. Hell, if you really knew some of the people in charge, you'd know that you'd have to first explain what a tower is before asking whether or not they felt it should stay. I have a feeling your buddy is exaggerating his position ever so slightly and the reason he was so surprised, is because he is a lowly employee with no say in the matter.

I'm not defending NC as I've seen cutbacks and heard first hand how their consultations were more meetings to present their concrete action plans on decisions already made, rather than solicit advice from the users. I think your petition is a good idea, as it is you the users that determine NC's actions. Unfortunately it's mainly the users that pay their bills, (AC, WJ, AT etc.) that determine their actions but if you make enough noise through your political figures as well as NC, then maybe something might change for the better. I know I'm not excited with the way things are going. In the meantime, keep your head together and don't take offense to a little jab in response to a ridiculous comment.

[...]

Birddog, you've lost me on this one. I know a few people quite high up in Fedex and your comment about you knowing someone almost in charge, made me burst out laughing. The funny thing is that Fedex is run by suits as well. They don't go for beers, they go for single malt scotch somewhere where their $5,000 suits don't get stained and their Rolls Royces won't get mud on them. Hell, if you really knew some of the people in charge, you'd know that you'd have to first explain what a tower is before asking whether or not they felt it should stay. I have a feeling your buddy is exaggerating his position ever so slightly and the reason he was so surprised, is because he is a lowly employee with no say in the matter.

I'm not defending NC as I've seen cutbacks and heard first hand how their consultations were more meetings to present their concrete action plans on decisions already made, rather than solicit advice from the users. I think your petition is a good idea, as it is you the users that determine NC's actions. Unfortunately it's mainly the users that pay their bills, (AC, WJ, AT etc.) that determine their actions but if you make enough noise through your political figures as well as NC, then maybe something might change for the better. I know I'm not excited with the way things are going. In the meantime, keep your head together and don't take offense to a little jab in response to a ridiculous comment.

Thank you and understood.

I retract the comment. My buddy called me just 10 minutes ago to wish me Happy New Year. That night I had told him Sudbury was closing. He thought Sudbury the airport. I failed to clairify it was the tower...not the whole airport...He said he knew the tower was closing already but was shocked it was the whole airport. My bad, my fault

Yeah...who's the dummy now?

PS: he is still large and almost incharge...not in a single malt scotch kinda way but I sometimes hear angels sing when he combs his hair.

[justplanecrazy]

I often wondered why my girls burst out in spontaneous simultaneous song.

Charlie.

[the_professor]

VFR will be told to beat it. The reason...IFR gets charged extra tariffs for one particular movement...VFR...well although you pay a yearly fee of 50 bucks...it means nothing. Your $100 hamburger will now cost you $200 because you'll have to fly away and around YYZ terminal. [/color]

Nice huh? Prices go up...service goes down.

Maybe VFR should be given the option of paying for service then. Why should VFR fly for free? It'll certainly cost less than $100 for flight following through YYZ terminal, so you'd be better off. And what prices are you talking about? ("Prices go up...")

I still think the SUITS @ Navcanada need to be sent a message. Enough is enough. Will a serial thief stop stealing because his conscience told him to? Nope. He'll only stop when he is caught and but in chains. I think Navcanada needs to be sent a message

What exactly are the suits "stealing", in that they have decided to close a tower at an airport that has seen its movements drop by 50% in 4 years? Why isn't someone applauding the company for acting responsibly, as opposed to throwing money at a tower that is not required?

Cutting services is the easiest most brainless thing to do. Any monkey can do that.

It's not brainless, it's called being accountable to the bottom line. Sounds like you'd rather have Transport back in charge, where there was zero reason to operate efficiently. I don't know about you, but the less we have government involved in any aspect of our lives, the better. Governments are not good at operating efficiently.

wow...that's some brilliant thoughts you put out there. You got all the answers huh skipper?

More answers than your peon friend who claims to be large and in charge.

Either way...I hope you don't get found out...that would be a bad thing.

Is that a threat?

[...]

Dearest the_professor,

...I don't care...

[the_professor]

Dearest the_professor,

...I don't care...

No, you obviously think you care, because you're railing about suits being crooks and a dying airport losing its tower.

But after being presented with counterpoints, your juvenille and baseless arguments are exposed. So you give up? Well done. Does wonders for your credibility on this issue.

[pokaroo]

Don't have time for a long winded response but i think there's probably one coming.....

But for now....

Being the ANS provider for a nation means being responsible for more than just the "big tin" it should emcompass everything from the smallest to the largest of airports, airplanes, airlines, navaids, ATC services etc etc etc....

Shutting down towers is degrading the services provided and a step in the wrong direction. Like it's been brought up a bunch of times already in this discussion Navcanada is a NON FOR PROFIT corporation, the company is not there to make money. The company is not hurting for $$, they keep saving the airlines more and more money every year at the expense of the "little guys" by closing FSS's and towers around the country, reducing staffing in the ACC etc....

I understand that Crichton has a company to run but sometimes I think he's a little too worried about the million dollar bonus he's slated to make next year which depends on the Borad of Directors which is driven by the major airlines......

[GilletteNorth]

Pokaroo:

I understand that Crichton has a company to run but sometimes I think he's a little too worried about the million dollar bonus he's slated to make next year which depends on the Borad of Directors which is driven by the major airlines......

Amen brother. I'll share your belief in the above.